Open 762: CK9++ [Over!]

[implosion]

Why throw shade and say last night that i could be scum faking it, if you are townreading me.

That sentence isn't throwing shade when read in context; it's tempering my townread of you.

Why say today that you dont know me at all but youre tring me for what you were throwing shade at me for before?

Because again, I am townreading you; i'm just explaining the way in which that townread could be wrong.

[Formerfish]

I never understand why town gets involved in things like that.

Although this is in reply to Persivul, this gets at the core of where I think the way you're looking at my play is very silly. Another example is this:

He's simply self-evidently obvtown.

I know this is selfdisserving, but I really cant respect a read this strong on day 1 from anyone. Like it just makes me wonder why you are so sure off so little. Do you need me for something that you are going to blatantly buddy Jackel?

I have been wrong on this as well, i once lynched Alonzo on day 1 because he gave a cop lvl clear on someone. He was right and we eventually won the game, but the sureness he showed cost us a mislynch.

You seem to have an obstinate view of how town members act, that is based on how you act as town. And yet when you see examples of town members acting in different ways, you don't update your internal model of how they act; you just cast those examples as aberrations. You don't understand why town gets involved in things like that, but... empirically, they do. Similarly, town are empirically sometimes extremely sure of themselves (though to clarify, that surety in that quote from me was sarcastic), yet you still find things like that suspicious.

I have Pers as a null read because of his actions not matching with his words. You guys are acting like I am damning Pers off of that when Im clearly just using it to help form my read, not base my read off of it.

You guys are focusing on weird things with me.

Pers is making this all personal and isnt saying whether he agrees with my reads or not and why.

Imp is focusing on my reading of Pers when my vote is on Phil and I am actively pushing Imp and not Pers.

[implosion]

fakeable ≠ definitely faked
fakeable ≠ probably faked
fakeable ≠ definitely fakeable by everyone
jesus fucking christ this is not complicated. It feels like you're trying to willfully misconstrue my sentiment.

[implosion]

Imp is focusing on my reading of Pers when my vote is on Phil and I am actively pushing Imp and not Pers.

I'm not "focusing" on anything.
It was an example of how your logic is flawed.

[implosion]

And I'm not really interested in your phil push right now; I don't find it especially swaying, though I'm happy to be convinced potentially.

[Formerfish]

fakeable ≠ definitely faked
fakeable ≠ probably faked
fakeable ≠ definitely fakeable by everyone
jesus fucking christ this is not complicated. It feels like you're trying to willfully misconstrue my sentiment.

Its not complicated and im not the one misunderstanding whats going on. That would be you.

Im saying that there is no need to say why you could be wrong in your read because its day 1 and we could all be wrong on our reads for any number of reasons. I have never claimed that my reads are going to be right 100% of the time.

But you dont see me sitting here and laying seeds of doubt as to why I could be wrong on dry, or hana, or thes. I am making a read based off the info I have and I am going to trust that read. Either you dont trust yourself and we shouldnt either, or you are fencesitting to see where the winds blow and who could be a viable mislynch for you guys today.

So im good on whats going on here, are you?

[implosion]

As for Dry-Fit:

Unvote. Vote: implosion.

Naked votes are more likely to come from scum in my experience.

In other news I wish Persivul didn't spill the beans so soon about our Innocent Child. Should of let more information and hilarity ensue.

I think this was a post you cited as being townish.

Voting me with that logic is, as far as I can tell, entirely null. It's a super trivial vote to fake if he's scum, it's something that can come from a certain kind of townie as well.

I assume your townread is based on the last line... but that last line is like, a REALLY easy thing for scum to throw in a post to get towncred. He's not actually extending the duration of me forgetting about the innocent child by saying that line, he's just saying the line. He as scum can very easily think "oh, it probably would have been good for town if persivul hadn't spilled the beans" and then mention that it would have been better to not spill the beans, even though mentioning it at this point accomplishes nothing for the town.

[implosion]

fakeable ≠ definitely faked
fakeable ≠ probably faked
fakeable ≠ definitely fakeable by everyone
jesus fucking christ this is not complicated. It feels like you're trying to willfully misconstrue my sentiment.

Its not complicated and im not the one misunderstanding whats going on. That would be you.

Im saying that there is no need to say why you could be wrong in your read because its day 1 and we could all be wrong on our reads for any number of reasons. I have never claimed that my reads are going to be right 100% of the time.

But you dont see me sitting here and laying seeds of doubt as to why I could be wrong on dry, or hana, or thes. I am making a read based off the info I have and I am going to trust that read. Either you dont trust yourself and we shouldnt either, or you are fencesitting to see where the winds blow and who could be a viable mislynch for you guys today.

So im good on whats going on here, are you?

Yes; you're a different kind of player than me and refuse to acknowledge that people can have different playstyles for some godforsaken reason

[Formerfish]

And I'm not really interested in your phil push right now; I don't find it especially swaying, though I'm happy to be convinced potentially.

Ok, could you point out which of my posts on Phil you take issue with and see as town where I see him as scum?

How about starting with his read and vote on JB?

JB comes in with RQS instead of RVS. Phil does a meta dive and finds that JB does this as town and scum. Phil comes back after his dive and still votes JB, and admits that he meta dived and found the act to be NAI for JB.

How do you defend that?

[Persivul]

Pers is making this all personal and isnt saying whether he agrees with my reads or not and why.

Most people aren't saying whether they agree with your reads or not.

Here's where we're butting heads:

I would care as either alignment because that means that I no longer

have control over the game

at all and dont trust the living to listen to the dead to win us the game.

You bust in and want to have control over the game.

I naturally dislike/distrust people who want to be town leader. If they're scum and they succeed, it's usually game over for town. While you seem townie enough, you're exactly the kind of player I'd investigate. But, I'm unusual in that respect. Most people investigate obv scummy players who are going to get lynched anyway.

[implosion]

see, I like elaborating reasons I might be wrong. Doing so will let me bounce ideas off of actual helpful players like elastic plastic and come to better conclusions. I like to work together with people, and being transparent about my thought process is a great way to do that.

I'm sorry you don't like my playstyle; you're welcome to keep using your own!

[implosion]

And I'm not really interested in your phil push right now; I don't find it especially swaying, though I'm happy to be convinced potentially.

Ok, could you point out which of my posts on Phil you take issue with and see as town where I see him as scum?

How about starting with his read and vote on JB?

JB comes in with RQS instead of RVS. Phil does a meta dive and finds that JB does this as town and scum. Phil comes back after his dive and still votes JB, and admits that he meta dived and found the act to be NAI for JB.

How do you defend that?

Again, townies are very frequently illogical. I don't see that kind of logical inconsistency as prima facie scummy.

[implosion]

Similar to how I don't find it scummy of you to say that you've seen townies be super sure of themselves on d1, then call me scummy for being super sure of myself on d1.

[Formerfish]

As for Dry-Fit:

Unvote. Vote: implosion.

Naked votes are more likely to come from scum in my experience.

In other news I wish Persivul didn't spill the beans so soon about our Innocent Child. Should of let more information and hilarity ensue.

I think this was a post you cited as being townish.

Voting me with that logic is, as far as I can tell, entirely null. It's a super trivial vote to fake if he's scum, it's something that can come from a certain kind of townie as well.

I assume your townread is based on the last line... but that last line is like, a REALLY easy thing for scum to throw in a post to get towncred. He's not actually extending the duration of me forgetting about the innocent child by saying that line, he's just saying the line. He as scum can very easily think "oh, it probably would have been good for town if persivul hadn't spilled the beans" and then mention that it would have been better to not spill the beans, even though mentioning it at this point accomplishes nothing for the town.

You are coming off like a one trick pony. I get things can be faked, I dont feel like he has been faking it. I can pick out other posts that exhibit what I mean better, since you only quoted the one where he voted you.

[implosion]

Pers is making this all personal and isnt saying whether he agrees with my reads or not and why.

Most people aren't saying whether they agree with your reads or not.

Here's where we're butting heads:

I would care as either alignment because that means that I no longer

have control over the game

at all and dont trust the living to listen to the dead to win us the game.

You bust in and want to have control over the game.

I naturally dislike/distrust people who want to be town leader. If they're scum and they succeed, it's usually game over for town. While you seem townie enough, you're exactly the kind of player I'd investigate. But, I'm unusual in that respect. Most people investigate obv scummy players who are going to get lynched anyway.

i like this post.

[Formerfish]

Pers is making this all personal and isnt saying whether he agrees with my reads or not and why.

Most people aren't saying whether they agree with your reads or not.

Here's where we're butting heads:

I would care as either alignment because that means that I no longer

have control over the game

at all and dont trust the living to listen to the dead to win us the game.

You bust in and want to have control over the game.

I naturally dislike/distrust people who want to be town leader. If they're scum and they succeed, it's usually game over for town. While you seem townie enough, you're exactly the kind of player I'd investigate. But, I'm unusual in that respect. Most people investigate obv scummy players who are going to get lynched anyway.

I think some have spoken to my reads, or have come out and said im town after seeing my reads, which would indicate to me that they were seeing enough in my reads and posts that they agree with.

And i dont agree with your night action process. You investigate in your nulls, scummy people you can get roped no matter what, and you have to trust your town reads at some point and make a leap.

[Formerfish]

see, I like elaborating reasons I might be wrong. Doing so will let me bounce ideas off of

actual helpful

players like elastic plastic and come to better conclusions. I like to work together with people, and being transparent about my thought process is a great way to do that.

I'm sorry you don't like my playstyle; you're welcome to keep using your own!

Is this a jab at me, or am i taking you wrong right now?

[implosion]

see, I like elaborating reasons I might be wrong. Doing so will let me bounce ideas off of

actual helpful

players like elastic plastic and come to better conclusions. I like to work together with people, and being transparent about my thought process is a great way to do that.

I'm sorry you don't like my playstyle; you're welcome to keep using your own!

Is this a jab at me, or am i taking you wrong right now?

It's a jab at the way you're approaching the game, specifically the fact that you're criticizing me for being transparent with my thought process, which I find flatly ridiculous.

[Formerfish]

Similar to how I don't find it scummy of you to say that you've seen townies be super sure of themselves on d1, then call me scummy for being super sure of myself on d1.

Can yo go into more depth here? A quote or two would help nicely.

[Formerfish]

see, I like elaborating reasons I might be wrong. Doing so will let me bounce ideas off of

actual helpful

players like elastic plastic and come to better conclusions. I like to work together with people, and being transparent about my thought process is a great way to do that.

I'm sorry you don't like my playstyle; you're welcome to keep using your own!

Is this a jab at me, or am i taking you wrong right now?

It's a jab at the way you're approaching the game, specifically the fact that you're criticizing me for being transparent with my thought process, which I find flatly ridiculous.

Sorry not sorry. I approach the game the way I do because of how ive come to play the game over time. I would love to work with you on lynch you, phil, or drew and you have already expressed disinterest in you and phil, would you like to lynch drew?

If not, then im not sure how much more interaction we can have. I am willing to work with people and have put out a list to help facilitate that cooperation. Im not the one who is holding this train up, thats you.

[Phillammon]

To answer the question: I found your entrance severely lacking in self-awareness, but I don't find that to be indicative, was what I was meaning. What implo is pointing out here is one part of it. Your anecdote about the "cop level read" that was right but got mislynched.

(I particularly disliked how you characterised that as the fault of the person you lynched, for bonus points)

[Phillammon]

Sorry: What I am interpreting implo as pointing out here. I am ready to be told I have misunderstood you, implo.

[implosion]

[voteCHANGED MY MIND SEE BELOW]Thespio[/vote]

Hey look, it's mutual! You're right, I don't have information to work off yet to build associations beyond how you're behaving towards each other, and towards people who vote for either of you... which there's plenty of. I think that there is a connection between the two of you, based on 307 looking like prompting, 314 being a nigh content free momentum shift off you, and now 338 and 339 going the opposite direction.

338 also gets bonus extra scumpoints for the way that you forgot information comes from... what people say, not just hidden info, and you're *also* trying to push me without actually getting your vote on me, which smacks of "wants the lynch to happen but doesn't want to be on the wagon itself when people do VCA later". Which, strangely, is the same thing that chem is doing.

(This said, I'm aware that masons are a thing that can technically happen in this setup alongside IC, which would also be a valid connection, but that seems to be a) quite improbable and b) do a real bad job of explaining your voting behaviour, or lack of same)

(I admit this conflicts with my existing Sakura scumread, as chem/Sakura's interactions don't look S/S.)
------
OKAY SO while I was looking back over chem/sakura to check how I feel about that last parenthesised bit, came across 328 again, which I can't really reconcile with the general thrust of my point here- the chem -> thesp side of the association was already a bit flimsy, though the thesp -> chem bit seems relatively sound, and 328 doesn't fit at all, so I'm barking up totally the wrong tree here. I still feel it's important I get my thought processes out there, at the very least so I can refer back later when I've totally forgotten everything, but retracting the vote, cause I don't agree with my own conclusion there.

I still think Chem and Thesp's behaviour is individually pretty suspect, to be clear, just unwilling to draw a line between them. So gonna stick with Chem for the time being.

Here's something from Phil that I think is really unlikely to come from scum.

First, the mid-post opinion-change is something that I think is very, very hard to fake as scum. It's something that you have to go somewhat far out of your way to fake. Literally the cancelled vote on the first line of the first of these two posts says town to me in isolation, but the paragraph at the end of the post reinforces that it looks genuine to me. I don't think this is a faked line of thought.

Second, the sentiment in the post looks genuinely like town interacting with someone that they're slightly irritated by or think is scum.

Third, the second of the posts gives an opinion with a good amount of nuance, even if I don't entirely agree with the actual logical argument itself; I think the complexity of his reads on thespio/chem/sakura and the subtlety with which he's looking at the different connections between them is really unlikely to be faked.

The first of these three points is the most significant in my mind.

[Formerfish]

To answer the question: I found your entrance severely lacking in self-awareness, but I don't find that to be indicative, was what I was meaning. What implo is pointing out here is one part of it. Your anecdote about the "cop level read" that was right but got mislynched.

(I particularly disliked how you characterised that as the fault of the person you lynched, for bonus points)

So what exactly am i lacking awareness about?

And yes, Alonzo should have never had that level of certainty as a vt on day 1 in a newbie game. Thats stupid. Even if he is right it doesnt matter on day 1.

[Korina]

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