Kingdom Hearts - Game Over

[RadiantCowbells]

Plotinus didn't tell you not to scumread us, they told you not to be toxic. Please don't lie about that. My read on you this game was not related to any personal reasons. I am going to sleep now but since the game is over we can talk about this in private because it certainly seems to have become personal after the fact.

I totally agree with this: but I don't think I was toxic at all. I invite you to explain where you think I went wrong in this game because as I recall I was called out for it simply for saying that people can get upset as either alignments.

[nancy]

I had zero vendetta against nancy.

RC you are tunneled on us the entire game in dead thread. I don't know how to explain that except vendetta.

[mhsmith0]

I really want this to be a perfect victory because I've never had a perfect victory before and it would feel pretty good to have my first large after Civ be one for personal reasons that should be pretty obvious.

sorry nancy no perfect win for you

[RadiantCowbells]

I had zero vendetta against nancy.

RC you are tunneled on us the entire game in dead thread. I don't know how to explain that except vendetta.

Your slot single handedly discredited my correct scumread on Shiro!slot, single handedly got Titus lynched, and I have issues with how you played the game in general.

I wanted to see town lose, or at least for you to have to spend long enough in the game that you would have some sort of introspection of how much damage that your rush to judgement on my slot and reads did to the game in the long run. I don't hate you as a person, and if nothing else I value the integrity of the game too much to PL you.

[nancy]

I didn't read the contents but what I'm assuming is there doesn't make them town.

If she did that to me as scum then she really does not care about me at all. If she's willing to go that far for a scum win she can have it, and lose me.

Jae someone can be scum and legitimately upset at you.

This reads like fanning the flames to me. I'm sorry if that's not how it was intended, but that's how it reads to me and I believe that is how it read to Plotinus at the time when they made their pedit too.

[Creature]

Didn't really bother much with Shiro because Maxwell was already after her.

[RadiantCowbells]

I didn't read the contents but what I'm assuming is there doesn't make them town.

If she did that to me as scum then she really does not care about me at all. If she's willing to go that far for a scum win she can have it, and lose me.

Jae someone can be scum and legitimately upset at you.

This reads like fanning the flames to me. I'm sorry if that's not how it was intended, but that's how it reads to me and I believe that is how it read to Plotinus at the time when they made their pedit too.

I don't see how it's fanning the flames. I simply did not believe that your outburst made you confirmed town. How else should I have dealt with that?

[nancy]

I wanted to see town lose, or at least for you to have to spend long enough in the game that you would have some sort of introspection of how much damage that your rush to judgement on my slot and reads did to the game in the long run.

I didn't rush to a judgement, RC. I scumread you for some posts and I voted you and responded negatively to your toxicity in a way that may have made it seem like I was far more sure in my read than I was, but I afterwards tried again to talk to you and you ignored me. I never seriously pushed you. My read on Titus was 95% Titus and 5% you.

[nancy]

How else should I have dealt with that?

I think you should have let it be and talked to them later when emotions were not running high.

[nancy]

I really want this to be a perfect victory because I've never had a perfect victory before and it would feel pretty good to have my first large after Civ be one for personal reasons that should be pretty obvious.

sorry nancy no perfect win for you

We nearly got it!

[Titus]

Yeah my role was designed to be a miller that punished me for claiming it outright. Once I realized I was a miller, I was like oh crap.

[Creature]

Partial Strongman =/= Strongman Maker

[RadiantCowbells]

If you think I was toxic in this game then I'm not sure how much I can actually improve. I am never going to write people off as town for getting upset; I have played with Frozen Angel too long for that. Similarly I would hate for people to write me off as scum for getting upset. I don't fake being upset as scum anymore and haven't for a while but if I'm upset as scum I'm not going to bottle that in simply because of my alignment. I never said that you were faking anything or that your feelings weren't real.

I think you should have let it be and talked to them later when emotions were not running high.

This has some merit: but what if every time I bring this up the emotions come back? There's players who will find a way to bring personal drama every time they get wagoned.
I don't want to make anyone upset and I still feel like it's obvious that I didn't want to instigate any of the personal conflicts in this game, but at the same time I have played with players who use situations like Jae/Reed to their advantage. One of them was in this game. There's only so far I can go in cancelling my wincondition because someone is upset.

I believe you when you say that you wouldn't do it strategically but at the same time I don't think if you were genuinely upset you'd be able to hide it entirely.

[mhsmith0]

Partial Strongman =/= Strongman Maker

yep

Titus also IIRC wagoned for defending Oversoul post flip, which is like the epitome of "What Town!Titus will do if she's wrong" and barely in the range of "What Wolf!Titus will do for pure WIFOM as a desperation move"

[nancy]

Yeah I am sorry about that Titus. There were signs that I was conf!biased on the read and I saw them but I didn't pick them up and I should have. You shouldn't have been lynched. I'm sad about it because I remember our first newbie game and I read you so well and you read me so well and we were just in thread mason buds and it was so nice. And this game I didn't recognize you at all and I lynched you and it sucks.

But at least we won anyway.

[mhsmith0]

FWIW

Spiff was doing stuff that you just don't see wolves actually do -- claiming a PR with still 24 hours remaining on d1 and openly antagonizing the people pushing him the hardest, rather than just slink away and wait for a shiny object to appear that drags the votes away from him

…

Cron was working super hard at developing his reads and he had the proper emotional investment in what he was doing. I don't feel like pulling up his posts to cite specific examples, so let's just talk again about the Trundle thing. He soulreads a guy as a wolf based on one post and has four reasons for it, and he's super proud of himself and patting himself on the back for it. Wolves aren't trying that hard to develop quick reads and they tend to struggle to come up with that level of insight and they aren't good at getting the subtle emotions right. And his whole day was full of things like that. Cron has played several wolf games on this site and his posting was bland and forgettable each time.

…

I don't have time to adequately respond to that post but one thing I can say quickly is that when I'm talking about emotions, I'm specifically excluding anger. It's the easiest emotion to fake and it's one that is often not alignment-indicative even when it is genuine, unless it can be traced to an origin in something distinctly villagery.

Emotions like pride, paranoia, surprise, suspicion, etc, are more difficult to fake. Wolves often fail to even identify spots in which emotion should be present in their posting, and their efforts at actually displaying more complex emotions are often quite clumsy, for example by stating their supposed feelings rather than displaying them.

But in the case of Cron, a lot of what was clearing for him was just the sheer depth and breadth of his reads and interactions. It's just hard to fake that much content so quickly and make it sound good. And few wolves are ever going to stalk other players' online statuses in order to catch lurkers.

Without bothering to get into the specifics of the situation (I didn't care to do so, even as someone who theoretically could have benefitted from stoking the flames), I would agree with the general statement that anger isn't clearing, though again I don't remember or care to find out the specifics to see if that's truly clearing in this specific situation.

[nancy]

I don't think you should townread people for emotions. I mistakenly townread FA for her emotion until Plotinus told me about her meta, after which point the slot promptly sank to the very bottom of my reads. And I don't think you intentionally incited personal conflict in this game. Where there was toxicity I don't think it arose out of you intentionally wanting to make the game toxic. But I do think it was there. Maybe I have to go back and read it all again with the knowledge that you're town and FA was scum to see if I feel differently about it. All I know is how I felt at the time and that's what I've told you here.

[nancy]

Anyway, I'm sorry this game wasn't fun for you RC. I'll talk to you tomorrow. I'm going to sleep now.

[Leonshade]

Partial Strongman =/= Strongman Maker

yep

Titus also IIRC wagoned for defending Oversoul post flip, which is like the epitome of "What Town!Titus will do if she's wrong" and barely in the range of "What Wolf!Titus will do for pure WIFOM as a desperation move"

Titus defended Oversoul post-gladiate, not post-flip. She also defended him pre-gladiate, a read which seemingly came out of nowhere (and included her chainsawing plantsy). It was the suddenness of the read, as well as the context that I read as scummy, not just the fact that she defended him.

[Boonskiies]

(please tell me that Sly death was a Boonskiies shot.)

I was pushing Plantsy and not very active. No point in killing me with other basically conf town in the game.

[mhsmith0]

plantsy why in hell would you want to shoot maxwell last night? If I towncleared Shiro it would have robbed Maxwell of doing another investigation inside the townblock. :/ Would have been an awful shot. (please tell me that Sly death was a Boonskiies shot.)

fwiw, shooting max might have been an ok move there. max clearing shiro would be bad for any theory scum, and it wasn't 100% that he was targeting shiro there

[mhsmith0]

^ok move for shiro, to clarify

[Boonskiies]

i kept my promise, SQ didn't died N2 but that D1 gambit was so obv fake, i mean, full BP IC?

Keyen, i told ya i'm not scum

also, i had good laugh watching "Shiro can't be scum, it's outside his scum range"

Haha, I came around on you before Day 1 even finished.

[Boonskiies]

i don't think i town read any of the dark aligned people at any point in the game, at least. I might have town read Shiro. They weren't my biggest scum reads, or even scum reads, but I was right about Maxwell and Titus.

[Boonskiies]

i just kept forgetting to log into the hydra, haha.