New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!

[Egg]

Taly, that unvote feels more like "I don't want to be associated with the people on the wagon than "I think Ozgin is town".

[dragonspawn]

What posts exactly are fake? I'd like to know because even when I am scum, I am genuine. If I didn't have yo lie about my alignment in scum games I wouldn't. Why? Because nothing is to be gained by not being genuine. Look at my scum game. Was I on anyones radar? Why because lying serves no purpose, especially as town.

my best guess right now is duck. Its still early and duck has posted a bit better but id like to see more before I give the all clear.

Titus push on oz seems genuine. Course that doesn't make her town cause scum is scum hunting. I don't particularly like how she is trying to push his lynch so quickly.

I still think ozs response is genuine too. And his citizen comment is concerning but I don't think its the smoking gun Titus and others are treating it.

as far as giving you a reason, look at my scum game. Or ask my friends. Some of them think they can read me. Some of them know me.

[Aneninen]

Well, Egg and Taly, it's irrelevant now. I wanted to check how Kitzy would react on my vote but we've been talking too much about this topic and her reaction won't be the same is it would have been without this talk. My vote is not useful there anymore.

Egg, remember I caught up with 20 pages or so. Was that all, as for Titus's case? Using the word "Citizen"? If so, that hasn't affected me much. My problem is that Ozgin is flailing all the time and he acts as if there were nothing against him apart from the "Citizen-case" and that "analogy about bringing up a child case".

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ozgin

[Egg]

Let's try this again dragonspawn:

Couldn't he have just said that when I asked the first approximately three times, initially giving him the benefit of the doubt?

[Egg]

Anen, there are two cases with the "citizen" thing. I'll give you Titus's first and then mine. Note that I don't like Titus's

1) Ozgin said citizen. That means VT. Why would he claim VT so early?

2) Ozgin used the uncommon term "citizen" rather than "townie". The sample PM says "citizen". He looked at the sample PM.

[dragonspawn]

Let's try this again dragonspawn:

Couldn't he have just said that when I asked the first approximately three times, initially giving him the benefit of the doubt?

pretty sure he did.

[dragonspawn]

I think the fact he used citizen isn't the issue. If he is a citizen why would he claim something else no matter how much the term is used?

the problem is he claimed. And then afterwards said he was using it to say he is town but not the actual role. That's the problem.

is that enough to make him scum? Maybe. Should we be focusing on him as much as we are? Probably not.

but whether he is town or scum we might be able to look at his wagon and find some of the scum on it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Dragonspawn logic: my scum game is too good so it's not possible you caught me.

Your ego makes you really easy to catch actually.

[dragonspawn]

Problem is no matter how big my ego gets, I'm not going to magically become scum.

[Varsoon]

Ozgin, I'm flattered, but you're really scumpainting me hard. Almost every point you have is some hyperbolized reactionary insult to my points. What's worse is that you're digging hard into things I've grown from and moved away from as well, so a lot of your complaints fall awkwardly in places that just aren't applicable anymore.

Look, it's not like I don't get the motivation. You're being wagoned hard. You need to counterwagon someone and drive the direction of the game away from yourself or you'll be lynched. You're flailing. People notice that. Why not make a big post-by-post case on a player who's integral to your wagon? Big post cases like that earn town-points, right?

What's especially fun is that I called you out on your earlier outburst as a flailing attempt to diffuse your wagon. Your response--going for my throat as hard as possible--is just more of the same. You're trying to do whatever you can to shake people off of you, to change the direction of the votes.

Why are you so concerned with your own survival?
Why is your scumhunting reactionary and insult-driven?
Why are you bringing back up the Citizen nonsense with me?

Spoiler:

I'm not pushing you over that. Talk to Titus about it if you wanna give someone flak. I was just noting the awkwardness in you saying you're a Citizen in a game where town-claiming-town might not pay that much attention to the rhetoric but scum-claiming-town certainly would.

Can you use more buzzwords in your posts that only (poorly) summarize my play so far?
I don't understand why you're voting me. Why are you voting me? Because we've already talked about my buddying plenty, which I've legitimately said is buddying. I don't get what your beef is.

I know you're jealous of me and my beloved Cheetory and Bookitty superbloc, it's okay. <3
Are you capable of understanding that someone can feel half-hearted about things and have their eggs in many baskets? Because when I say 'We need to lynch the SK' and generally advocate being aware of an SK presence, that does not equate to your fiction of me insisting on an SK hunt or only looking to lynch the SK on day 1. As it turns out, I can hunt scum and the SK all at the same time! I can try to form alliances and hunt scum all at once! I can change my ideas on things across time! Woah! It's like I'm an actual human being, capable of having varying interests and investments in multiple things, capable of change and thoughtfulness and even being wrong! Woah!

Ozgin, come on. I don't see a bit of genuine effort in your case on me. It feels half-assed. It feels like a last-ditch flail to try to distract from your wagon, or, at least, force a 1v1. I've been there before, myself. I used to sweat hard when I got a handful of votes in large games. I was too used to the small ones where six votes meant death. Six votes here isn't even halfway to lynch, though. So I want to know why you're sweating so much. I want to know where this aggression against me is coming from. Your points against me are all things I've addressed already, so I'm curious as to why you're insistent on revisiting those old conversations. I want this game to move forward, Ozgin. I believe that direction lies with your lynch. When you flail like this and make what comes across, to me, as a desperate last-ditch effort to survive, it only makes me more confident in lynching you.

VOTE: Ozgin
Y'know. For good measure.

[dragonspawn]

Superbloc. Interesting. Not townbloc.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, like I said, I'm not so concerned about people's alignments. I'm fairly certain Bookitty and Cheetory are town here (more certain about Cheetory, actually) but if they turn out otherwise, that's something to worry about D3 or D4. We're in D1. We need direction and focus.

Dragonspawn, you're getting into these little scuffles with people off to the side and have been giving your ideas on things but I don't see you committing to any one thing too hard. What are your convictions this game? You've got to feel strongly one way or the other by now, right?

Also, you mentioned a neighborhood in 533. Are you in a neighborhood? Can I be a part of it? (Please?)

[Varsoon]

Oh, my bad, let me be painfully strident so no one puts their foot in their ass misrepping me;

I care less about misreading people who I want to work with early game for lynches because even if they turn out to be aligned against me, we have a common enemy anyway and having an extra team of peopleto help out towards a lynch wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing in D1 or D2. This does not equate to blatant sheeping, but, rather, as a group that can give the game focus and direction to escape the quagmire of 100 pages that early days often becomes in large games on-site.

[Skybird]

Skybird, but didn't you say you were town reading him for the abrasive don't give a shit attitude? Or am I misremembering? Because if that's what you said, your meta on him (which matches mine by the way) contradicts that point.

Yes, I did say I was town reading him for being abrasive. I'm not sure about the last part of your sentence where you say my meta contradicts that point. I'm totally missing your point.

[dragonspawn]

Because I like observing, inquiring, and trying to figure people out. Rushing to judgments in a large game doesn't seem prudent to me. So yeah, I'm not sure of everyone yet. When I get more certain I will be more committed.

Though I've been fairly committed to questioning people. I've been committed to my vote with duck. My opposition to ozgins wagon has been committed as well.

So I guess being committed depends on how you define it.

Why are you so sure cheetory is town?

[Bookitty]

I said I had a theory. When Ozgin's wagon really took off, both Taly and Dragonspawn were looking weird about it. What I think I know is that with two scum teams (We'll call them Thugs and Hoodlums, for clarity's sake):

The Thugs are going to try to protect Thugs and attack anyone they think might be Hoodlums or townies.
The Hoodlums are going to try to protect Hoodlums and attack anyone they think might be Thugs or townies.
But neither side can be really obvious about that. So they need to redirect, attack people who are attacking their team, whatever.

I got bad vibes from Taly and Dragonspawn about Ozgin's wagon. Taly's attitude is probably a bit more suspect than Dragon's right now, but both are pinging me. I don't know for sure that they are scum, but I wanted to let my vote marinate for a bit before I said anything outright.

That was my theory. I mentioned it before obliquely, but nothing has happened to dissuade me from it so far.

[Varsoon]

@Dragonspawn: I feel that. It's cool to suss things out. I don't think the laladucks wagon really has anyone actively pushing it through now, though. Are you content just to stay there? Also, no response to my hood question?
As for Cheetory, it's in his bluntness as well as the early pushes he made. Well, that and something else, but good boys don't kiss and tell <3

@Bookitty: I'll have to double-check Taly, but I agree with you on Dragonspawn--the defense of Ozgin in the last few pages kinda pings with me. I, for one, don't think it's too early to be thinking about associations and links like that. All said, we'll have to see Ozgin's flip before it becomes really damning to either Taly or Dragonspawn in your scenario. So... I take it that you're assuming Ozgin is Thug/Hoodlum?

[Taly]

Taly, that unvote feels more like "I don't want to be associated with the people on the wagon than "I think Ozgin is town".

What makes you think that? Ozgin has been one of my earliest townreads, and it hasn't been until lately where I began to think he was scummy, and a lot of it wasn't through my own reads - it was mostly influence since everyone seemed to be jumping onto the wagon, so I voted Ozgin to see how he'd react, and I got a reaction and perceived it to be more emotional town.

At the same time, for a good portion this game thus far - I was onto Kitz,

but nobody seemed interested in that wagon

, I kept trying to understand why Titus wanted to tunnel Ozgin, and after seeing Titus' posts, I begin to question just how credible Titus was in her pursuit on Ozgin. Several people even said that Titus' case wasn't the best.

I didn't want to half-heartedly follow a wagon forever.

I also didn't like how Ozgins wagon formed, as I've said before - I didn't trust the votes behind some of he people who went on the wagon. (partially TSO who has done nothing, and just general votes that don't seem to be coming from peoples own opinions and thoughts) I already said I thought there was scum on it(Don't know who would be scum, but it's just my hunch), and probably a lurker as well. But that still doesn't rule out the possibility of Ozgin town.

In all, I'm not feeling the Ozgin lynch at the moment, I also find Dragons singular posts to be more alarming other than Ozgins reactions. Since quite a few people are more sure of Dragon-scum, and because Dragon hasn't committed so much to the game - whereas,

we haven't seen Ozgin much other than him constantly defending himself

. I think it will provide more info. to encourage Ozgin to do something else.

I don't typically bring this up, but this is only the second day in D1 - some people haven't even caught up with the thread yet let alone make a major opinion on a lynch. I'm just surprised at how much attention has been brought to Ozgin,

when there are several other people to be considered.

Also, in my unvote of Ozgin,

I said my vote on Dragon wasn't entirely solid. So I could very well just be a bit wishy-washy in my vote and later think that Ozgin is a better option - in which case, instead of saying I'm trying to avoid Ozgin-wagoner-associates, you should be telling me why he IS a better choice.

I'm not trying to distance myself from people who are on Ozgin's wagon, I'm going by what I feel is most likely the best to be sure of my reads on people, and see which action would be best for town.

Even though my opinions usually aren't popular a lot of the time... >_<

Specifically in D1, for reasons I can't comprehend.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hey

Varsoon

, you seem to notice my existence now. What do you think about

Dragon

?

Also, I'm realizing there is some sketchy shit going on here.

Boo

, why are you suspicious of me being associated with

Ozgin and/or Dragon

? - But then when I get on

Ozgins

wagon, and after some events leading me to vote for

dragon, Egg

is questioning that I'm unvoting for

Ozgin

to avoid associates?

I don't get it. I'm interpreting conflicted data here and it makes me suspicious of you people. Do you guys really think I'm in it with

Ozgin and/or Dragon?

If so, you've never stated why.

Also

Boo,

you haven't even replied to my questions towards you in 548 ._.

[Ozgin]

@Anen, in order: Yes, I'm not, Ignore that, No it isn't, and I didn't say that.

@Taly I think my next scumspect would be Kitz, bur I don't have as much on her.

@Egg - What's your point on me again?

[dragonspawn]

Hey Italy, what response s of mine have been fake?

[Varsoon]

Taly:

Sorry if it seemed like I was ignoring you before. D:
Dragonspawn's interaction and generally removed presence is a bit weird to me, and I could see his defense of Ozgin as buddying given a scum-flip from Ozgin, but, ultimately, I'm married to the Ozgin wagon now. I could see this flipping on both sides of the fence, and while it does ping to me and there are some things that bother me a lot, I feel like I'm missing the 'big thing'. If that makes sense?
So, I'm skeptical. I want to know more.

[dragonspawn]

I hate autocorrect

[Ozgin]

Ozgin, I'm flattered, but you're really scumpainting me hard. Almost every point you have is some hyperbolized reactionary insult to my points. What's worse is that you're digging hard into things I've grown from and moved away from as well, so a lot of your complaints fall awkwardly in places that just aren't applicable anymore.

Look, it's not like I don't get the motivation. You're being wagoned hard. You need to counterwagon someone and drive the direction of the game away from yourself or you'll be lynched. You're flailing. People notice that. Why not make a big post-by-post case on a player who's integral to your wagon? Big post cases like that earn town-points, right?

What's especially fun is that I called you out on your earlier outburst as a flailing attempt to diffuse your wagon. Your response--going for my throat as hard as possible--is just more of the same. You're trying to do whatever you can to shake people off of you, to change the direction of the votes.

Why are you so concerned with your own survival?
Why is your scumhunting reactionary and insult-driven?
Why are you bringing back up the Citizen nonsense with me?

Spoiler:

I'm not pushing you over that. Talk to Titus about it if you wanna give someone flak. I was just noting the awkwardness in you saying you're a Citizen in a game where town-claiming-town might not pay that much attention to the rhetoric but scum-claiming-town certainly would.

Can you use more buzzwords in your posts that only (poorly) summarize my play so far?
I don't understand why you're voting me. Why are you voting me? Because we've already talked about my buddying plenty, which I've legitimately said is buddying. I don't get what your beef is.

I know you're jealous of me and my beloved Cheetory and Bookitty superbloc, it's okay. <3
Are you capable of understanding that someone can feel half-hearted about things and have their eggs in many baskets? Because when I say 'We need to lynch the SK' and generally advocate being aware of an SK presence, that does not equate to your fiction of me insisting on an SK hunt or only looking to lynch the SK on day 1. As it turns out, I can hunt scum and the SK all at the same time! I can try to form alliances and hunt scum all at once! I can change my ideas on things across time! Woah! It's like I'm an actual human being, capable of having varying interests and investments in multiple things, capable of change and thoughtfulness and even being wrong! Woah!

Ozgin, come on. I don't see a bit of genuine effort in your case on me. It feels half-assed. It feels like a last-ditch flail to try to distract from your wagon, or, at least, force a 1v1. I've been there before, myself. I used to sweat hard when I got a handful of votes in large games. I was too used to the small ones where six votes meant death. Six votes here isn't even halfway to lynch, though. So I want to know why you're sweating so much. I want to know where this aggression against me is coming from. Your points against me are all things I've addressed already, so I'm curious as to why you're insistent on revisiting those old conversations. I want this game to move forward, Ozgin. I believe that direction lies with your lynch. When you flail like this and make what comes across, to me, as a desperate last-ditch effort to survive, it only makes me more confident in lynching you.

VOTE: Ozgin
Y'know. For good measure.

If you aren't the cockiest motherfucker I've ever seen.

Your entire post is a patronizing piece of shit and doesn't actually provide any defense against my points other than, "I've moved on from that," and "I've addressed that," when in reality you haven't addressed anything. It's a big fluff post with you trying to sound all high and mighty, like you're so great. And since when are you an integral part of my wagon? My real pusher is Titus, not you?

Why am I concerned with my own survival? Isn't everyone? If my wincon is to eliminate scum, why wouldn't I scumhunt? Why does my scumhunt have to be because it's you specifically? You're just the scummiest ISO I've read.

My scumhunting isn't reactionary and insult-driven, it's perfectly valid. What the hell do you mean the points I brought up aren't applicable anymore? Everything you say in a mafia game are applicable! It's a game about finding scum based on what you say!

And I don't have a beef, like I said - I read ISOs, I thought you contradicted yourself a lot and were extremely wishy washy. This is just a flail? seriously? I'm still at like, L-5. I don't have to flail until L-2. Just because I'm trying to actually scumhunt, now it's about me trying to shake attention off? If I had built a different scum case on someone else earlier, it would have been fine! You literally complain about how abrasive I am and how defensive I am, I get offensive, and that's scummy now apparently too?

Jesus Christ, what do you need to be satisfied, you arrogant prick? Actually address some of my points in my posts maybe, and stop throwing around your high-and-mighty shitposts.

[dragonspawn]

VOTE: tso

Of all the votes for ozgin this is the one with absolutely no explanation.

I'd like some reason why you are on the wagon tso. What do you think of the argument on oz and what do you think of his reaction to it?

[Varsoon]

If you aren't the cockiest motherfucker I've ever seen.

I dunno, this is pretty much the most satisfying thing for me.
I'm all in on ya, Ozzy~

It's a shame you moved right into insult, then denial, then rationalizations.

@Dragonspawn:

I've got a hunch towards the reason for TSO joining on, but, yes, that could use some articulation.