Mini 1697 - a Re-balanced Game of Mafia - GAME OVER

All Alone · Post Post #550 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:22 am

In post 434, Firebringer wrote:I know PMysterious is lurking and one of my top suspects but you don't think none of the following are scum:
Thesp, NetherSpite, and Radiant?

I think those are better Day 1 lynches than PMysterious whose flip essentially would tell us the least All Alone.

I can see Thesp as scum. The way he backed off of pistachi0n when I suspected him seemed like he was more concerned with staying out of trouble than he was with sorting her.

I think Nether is town because there've been several moments in this game where he posted what I was thinking before I did: Calling RC and Alchemist a TvT, calling you town after your fight with RC, and calling Dominator scum but later changing his mind.

I think RC is town because I really can't see a scum motive for that OMGUS vote on Alchemist. It drew a lot of negative attention to him, and had no realistic chance to get a lynch on Alchemist. It makes very little sense as a manipulative act, and a lot of sense as a genuine reaction.

And I'm not really concerned with which flip is the most informative. Every lynch is informative except no-lynch.

I'd still vote eventi over Nether or Dominator.

Ankamius · Post Post #551 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:32 am

In post 531, Persivul wrote:
In post 525, Netherspite wrote:Your defense of eventi looks interesting though. I'm now even more sure I want to see his flip for the information purpose.

I'm starting to get concerned about you. You're implying that if he flips red then I'm scummy. But, you know from my meta that as scum I wouldn't go out of my way to rescue a scum partner who got himself into heavy trouble. It would be much better scum play to scum read him and bus him.

This post bugs me to no end.

Ankamius · Post Post #552 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:35 am

Actually, I read through Persivul's posts throughout the last few pages and all of them look hollow. It's really disconcerting.

Ankamius · Post Post #553 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:38 am

UNVOTE: FireBringer
VOTE: TheDominator37

I like a bunch of evanti's recent posts, so here is where my vote stays.

FireBringer > Persivul is my scumlist currently, though.

TheDominator37 · Post Post #554 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:43 am

Am I at L1 yet?

Persivul · Post Post #555 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:53 am

In post 551, Ankamius wrote:
In post 531, Persivul wrote:
In post 525, Netherspite wrote:Your defense of eventi looks interesting though. I'm now even more sure I want to see his flip for the information purpose.

I'm starting to get concerned about you. You're implying that if he flips red then I'm scummy. But, you know from my meta that as scum I wouldn't go out of my way to rescue a scum partner who got himself into heavy trouble. It would be much better scum play to scum read him and bus him.

This post bugs me to no end.

Why?

Persivul · Post Post #556 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:55 am

In post 552, Ankamius wrote:Actually, I read through Persivul's posts throughout the last few pages and all of them look hollow. It's really disconcerting.

If you want to see something hollow, read your own ISO. You can do so in about 20 seconds.

eventi · Post Post #557 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:02 am

In post 544, Netherspite wrote:
In post 539, eventi wrote:
IDK man, it's a tough call. I think his persistent use of logical fallacies in our arguments is scummy, but I don't know if he's doing it intentionally. Some people are just illogical.

Me being illogical and using logical fallacies is your opinion, it's subjective and can be wrong.
In my opinion it's you who is illogical.

Logic is most definitely not subjective. When you argue "A therefore B" and I say "A is false" you follow with, "Yeah, but C" which doesn't support your point. That's not subjective, it's a logical fallacy.

Ankamius · Post Post #558 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:05 am

In post 555, Persivul wrote:
In post 551, Ankamius wrote:
In post 531, Persivul wrote:
In post 525, Netherspite wrote:Your defense of eventi looks interesting though. I'm now even more sure I want to see his flip for the information purpose.

I'm starting to get concerned about you. You're implying that if he flips red then I'm scummy. But, you know from my meta that as scum I wouldn't go out of my way to rescue a scum partner who got himself into heavy trouble. It would be much better scum play to scum read him and bus him.

This post bugs me to no end.

Why?

It's self-meta that would be trivial to subvert. I can't tell yet whether it's a vague attempt to avoid suspicion or a white knight yet though.

Ankamius · Post Post #559 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:07 am

In post 556, Persivul wrote:
In post 552, Ankamius wrote:Actually, I read through Persivul's posts throughout the last few pages and all of them look hollow. It's really disconcerting.

If you want to see something hollow, read your own ISO. You can do so in about 20 seconds.

Very funny.

It's easy to look hollow when you're on a tablet for most of your posts. It's much harder to look this hollow when you're posting as much as you do.

Persivul · Post Post #560 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:11 am

In post 558, Ankamius wrote:
It's self-meta that would be trivial to subvert. I can't tell yet whether it's a vague attempt to avoid suspicion or a white knight yet though.

I agree that self-meta is worthless, but I directed this to nether, who has acknowledged that he's using meta analysis on me. He hasn't disputed it, and I doubt he will. He modded a game in which I replaced in as scum, and lynched my partners on D2 and D3, but then went on to win.

Persivul · Post Post #561 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:13 am

In post 559, Ankamius wrote:
It's easy to look hollow when you're on a tablet for most of your posts. It's much harder to look this hollow when you're posting as much as you do.

It's easy to coast by as scum and point the finger at active players if people let you get away with this attitude.

Persivul · Post Post #562 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:20 am

Second on my scum buddy's lynch:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6990618

First on my scum buddy's lynch:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6996897

This is in a game that Nether modded. So, when Nether notes that I'm defending eventi, it should be an indicator to him that I'm town, regardless of how eventi flips.

Netherspite · Post Post #563 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:29 am

In post 557, eventi wrote:
Logic is most definitely not subjective. When you argue "A therefore B" and I say "A is false" you follow with, "Yeah, but C" which doesn't support your point. That's not subjective, it's a logical fallacy.

First of all, I'd like to see an example when this happened.
Because I don't remember such things.

Also, even in your example there are subjective things like:
a) whether A was really false or not.
b) whether C was supporting the point or not.

duppin · Post Post #564 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:30 am

Alright I am back.

In post 562, Persivul wrote:Second on my scum buddy's lynch:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6990618

First on my scum buddy's lynch:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6996897

This is in a game that Nether modded. So, when Nether notes that I'm defending eventi, it should be an indicator to him that I'm town, regardless of how eventi flips.

Um, WIFOM? This means nothing at all. I actually do not like you bringing this up, but oh well.

Actually your defense of eventi feels very weird. I do not believe both of you are scum (although it is possible), but your defense of him feels like a scum trying to gain town credit. You sound almost certain he will flip town, implying you know something that we do not.

Anyway, I will vote on eventi or TheDominator. I haven't changed my vote to TheDominator because I do not want to risk us getting a no-lynch. I will bere here for the next couple of hours so hopefully we can agree on a train. Hopefully people will show up soon.

Netherspite · Post Post #565 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:31 am

@Persivul

I found similarities in how you entered the game in a scummy slot with the wordy posts that made the consensus shift significantly.
I do no expect you to lynch your buddies in every scumgame since that game I was modding, that would be stupid.

Persivul · Post Post #566 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:41 am

In post 565, Netherspite wrote:
@Persivul

I found similarities in how you entered the game in a scummy slot with the wordy posts that made the consensus shift significantly.

First, I also entered the town game I linked to with wordy posts.

Second, I haven't made consensus shift significantly in this game. eventi had 6 when I came in, he still does.

Third...it pretty much sucks that you bring up my meta to indict me and no one has a problem with it...yet when I then defend with meta, duppin and ank view it badly, and say

I'm

the one bringing it up.

I do no expect you to lynch your buddies in every scumgame since that game I was modding, that would be stupid.

Would it be smart or stupid for scum!Pers to replace in and quickly make a hard defense of an L-1 scum buddy?

duppin · Post Post #567 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:59 am

There is a difference.

Nether has a meta read on you and I do not mind him bringing it up. I do not find that suspicious at all. I do not necessarily agree with it though, andd considering I am new at this site I don't really care that much about meta reads at the moment since I do not know any of you.
You bring it up to defend yourself. That is WIFOM and means absolutely nothing.

Persivul · Post Post #568 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:02 am

OK, meta can be used to attack someone, but that person cannot dispute that attack. Got it.

duppin · Post Post #569 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:06 am

Nether is basically telling us you played the same way as scum in a game he modded. This is a fair point, it does not mean you are scum though.
You could've simply said: I do the same thing as town.
Instead you got very defensive, linked previous game where you were town trying to convince everyone you play the exact same way as town.
This reaction is very questionable and that defense means nothing, because it is WIFOM and everyone can change their game.

duppin · Post Post #570 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:07 am

Eh I meant you linked a game where you were scum, claiming it means you are town now.

Persivul · Post Post #571 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:09 am

So, nether says I played the same way as scum in a game he modded, but my linking to that game to dispute his unsupported claim is "very defensive."

And regarding the town game I linked to, that was at nether's request.

Netherspite · Post Post #572 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:18 am

Your towngame was different.
I leave it for everyone to read both the games and see for themselves.
For me it is different.

duppin · Post Post #573 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:19 am

Okay I need to do this properly.

Nether claims you played the same way as scum in a previous game. This is worth noting.

You claim you are not scum now, because in that game you voted on your teammates (I mean, come on).

So you are basically saying that you are playing the same way as you did in that game. You claim you play the same way as town.
The only difference between that game and this, is you voted on your teammates in that game, while
(If Nether believes eventi is scum) you defended your teammate here. Do you not see how flawed your logic is?

I do not mind you defending yourself against meta reads, but this is terrible logic.
You bringing it up does not help you, because it is WIFOM.

I think you stating you play the same way as town would've been fine and then you could even link the town games.
I don't really mind that, not a huge fan of it either though.

duppin · Post Post #574 (ISO) » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:23 am

I can't be bothered to read the games to be honest. I will read him based on his play here.

As I stated previously I think a lot of his reads are weird. Well at least I do not agree with most of them.
I did not like his reaction to Netherspite's push and his defense of eventi feels forced. Persivul is an interesting target, but I do not see any reason to look at him now though.
Perhaps day 2.