Open 631 - Diffusion of Power (Over)

[MaxwellPuckett]

Votecount 1.11

SnarkySnowman [3]:

Kop, Killthestory, Autti

Almost50 [2]

: SnarkySnowman, duppin

Lowell [1]

: pisskop

duppin [1]

: chilledtea

Autti [1]

: pistachi0n

Killthestory [1]

: drmyshottyizsik

Not Voting:

Almost50, Rhaegar, Lowell, KainTepes

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 will end in (expired on 2016-04-03 09:11:42).

Just finished staring at a Mark Rothko painting for 7 minutes straight. Timed it.

[Rhaegar]

Duppin, You've nearly convinced to put a vote back on Snarky. I find that fact to be rather ironic.

[Killthestory]

I'm starting to think Shotty is an even bigger VI than Kain.

Anyway, apologies for the absence. I lost internet for a while there/sickness

[Killthestory]

I'm honestly really tired right now. I'll get back to you guys later when I'm not on a Mobile and sleep deprived

[Almost50]

You have to realise that by not lynching anyone day 1 basically means that day 2 is going to turn into day 1 v2

Not in THIS setup. That's why I emphasized on the term.

we will still have very limited information which also means that people are (most likely) going to pursue the exact same targets they did day 1 as it is unlikely anything would've changed their mind - so basically it sets town back one day.

Except we are likely to have cop investigation results AND a night kill. We can trace back the NK interactions and analyze their reads.

What you say (the no new info) would only be true if the cop(s) got blocked (which is not applicable since we know there's no RB in the setup) AND there's no NK either, in which case; yes we're basically playing D1 v2, but then we also haven't lost anyone at all. I'd repeat the process on D2 if necessary and we would probably end up with 3-4 confirmed town players (assuming a no NK on N1 = one cop result as it stands now, so on D2 the cop could investigate SS to verify his alignment and claim on D3. If SS is town then we can trust his N1 result as well, so at least 3 confirmed town players.)

There is no point in doing anything day 1 if we are just going to go for a no lynch (sure some interactions might come in handy later, but it's still not a good play).

Again, this is true in general, but NOT in a setup where everyone can potentially return a guilty/not guilty result or help secure the info will come in the open by protecting the one who will get it.

You see, in chess -say- there are pawns and there are powerful pieces. VTs are the pawns in this game. The situation now is like we have run out of pawns already, and all remaining pieces are rocks or bishops. Rather than losing either for no reason I would rather hold on to my pieces until they've done something that will help tighten the board and choke the opponent's remaining pieces.

The game could just begin during nighttime then,

If it did, we might still get a result from the cop, but the NK would have nothing to it to analyze. The purpose of the day talk we had is to make a link between the kill and someone. We will need to think why the mafia picked this target over any other. We won't have that if it was a night start.

In fact, we can always assume we did start with a night phase, someone got killed and flipped VT. Now this is the following day and we're trying to find out who did it.

it would be easy for scum to just kill someone who's flip won't have that big of an impact on the game (as in players who haven't really done much day 1).

First point I can agree with. But then, some players try to lay low as PRs to avoid being killed. I seem to notice the mafia kills follow two very distinct philosophies. The first one is what you're suggesting: Target the less active players who show no commitment to the game. The other one is target the vocal players who are likely to be town leaders and drive pushes leading to lynches. That -of course- aside from the obvious targeting of the PRs; which -in this setup- is all of us (up until now).

You also have to realise that lynching is the only way for town to kill scum and that is obviously not possible if we don't lynch,

Well this IS the core of our different views. I mean, the quoted statement is 100% true, yet it's 100% misleading 9it looks like it was extracted from a Microsoft manual or something).

It IS the town's only was to kill scum. It is also the town's only way to kill a townie. So, to make it completely and utterly true it should be "it's the town's only way to kill". Period.

The town needs to kill SCUM. I fully agree. The town does NOT benefit from killing it's own though, hence I'm calling for an informed lynch rather than one for the sake of lynching.

What we're doing 9pushing for a lynch for the sake of it) is closer to playing on dozens (or columns) in roulette. In fact, even playing dozens or columns have better odds of winning. Our odds are 3/13 (= 12/52 as opposed to 12/38 in roulette 12 numbers).

so we're just giving away a free kill to scum

OR we're giving THEM a free kill if we lynch one of us.

Yes it is possible we lynch town day 1 (in fact that is usually what happens), but that's still better than not lynching at all.

And now we're back to being on opposing sides on this. Losing one of us is NOT a better option. This "one of us" could be the one who decides the game later on. They could be the N4/N5 cop who will solve the game in LyLo, or could be the N4/N5 doctor who would save a townie from being NK'd thus ensuring we do get to the LyLo/MyLo.

We can then look at vote records and interactions and actually base it on something.

The same can be done based on an ISO of D1 VCs in D2 even if we don't lynch. ONE flip is all we need, and considering the day ends when we reach a majority (except for twilight where you still can't vote) it is basically the same thing... a flip + VCs from the previous day. It is the equivalent of a lynch + a successful night protection.

B) He survives and has an innocent check: People are going to doubt him. Did he survive because he was scum, because he was protected or because scum is trying to frame him?

I dunno about him being a fake cop or if scum want to frame him, but I know a doc who protected him should claim loud and clear. You seem to overlook the fact that anyone who has performed an action on N1 is a mere VT on N2. Even if scum wanted to play us they only have 3 members, so they can't claim N1 cop, N1 doc and expect to get away with it for long.

The way I see it is -from now on- we don't claim until we've performed out actions. Like, if there a N3 cop they don't need to claim and don't need to be pushed all the way to be forced to claim. HOWEVER, if still alive on D4 they MUST claim, not only their role but also their result. The same goes to doctors. If we do this I expect the town to win on D4 with all info being on the table.

Now assuming SS survives and no doctor claim on protecting him, we have two possibilities:

He claims a guilty or he claims not guilty on someone. If the former we lynch the target and see how they flip. If the latter we lynch SS (as he has performed his duty) and if he flips town we know his result is spot on.

In fact, let me put this in another colour so it would still stand out for skimmers.

Him surviving with an innocent check obviously means whoever he targeted is confirmed town (if SS is a cop), but we won't know that until SS flips.

Please reread the print in blue for this case.

[Killthestory]

why the fuck are we still discussing no lynches?

[Rhaegar]

I think I almost feel good about doing this.

VOTE: almost

[pistachi0n]

I think I almost feel good about doing this.

VOTE: almost

Pun intended?

[drmyshottyizsik]

I think I almost feel good about doing this.

VOTE: almost

See he annoys me.but convince me of this.

[Killthestory]

I think I almost feel good about doing this.

VOTE: almost

See he annoys me.but convince me of this.

Honestly stop. This is such a bad post like I'm cringing so hard I might die bro

VOTE: Almost

[drmyshottyizsik]

I think I almost feel good about doing this.

VOTE: almost

See he annoys me.but convince me of this.

Honestly stop. This is such a bad post like I'm cringing so hard I might die bro

VOTE: Almost

For wanting reasons? Seriously?

[Killthestory]

yes

[pistachi0n]

Why are you jumping on the almost wagon?

[Autti]

Dammit, was just about to post how almost is scummy for his no-lynch strategy. You guys beat me to it

[duppin]

To be honest I think that's a silly play pistachi0n.

Why so?

It seems like I missed the context, I apologise. Might not be as silly as I thought.

Except we are likely to have cop investigation results AND a night kill. We can trace back the NK interactions and analyze their reads.

Very poor argument. Town usually has a cop in 99% of the games, that doesn't mean it's wiser to do a no lynch. I've also already explained why the information we would gain from the NK would be very limited (assuming scum aren't new players) if we decided to no lynch, as scum would most likely attempt to kill someone who's flip wouldn't matter much (based on votes and interactions from day 1).

What you say (the no new info) would only be true if the cop(s) got blocked (which is not applicable since we know there's no RB in the setup) AND there's no NK either, in which case; yes we're basically playing D1 v2, but then we also haven't lost anyone at all. I'd repeat the process on D2 if necessary and we would probably end up with 3-4 confirmed town players

It honestly feels a bit like you missed the point. I clearly stated that the only information we would get would be from the NK flip and even that would be very limited as scum would decide who to kill - not sure why you keep talking about the NK when I've already covered that. There is also a big difference between the information from a NK and a lynch. Town decides who to lynch and scum decides who to kill, in no possible way is it better to leave it up to scum to give us information.

About the cop, that's still not a very good point. Cop(s) (assuming we have one (or more) night 1 cops, which we don't even know) would still get a check in even if lynched someone (unless we obviously lynched them).

You see, in chess -say- there are pawns and there are powerful pieces. VTs are the pawns in this game. The situation now is like we have run out of pawns already, and all remaining pieces are rocks or bishops. Rather than losing either for no reason I would rather hold on to my pieces until they've done something that will help tighten the board and choke the opponent's remaining pieces.

No, no and no this is definitely not a good idea. We have X-night cops, which means they only get in one check. You can not expect everyone (actually I'd expect very few) to get in their actions. By wanting to give them a "chance" to do something you're basically giving scum a freepass as they could just claim they have a night 8 action. I think you're very wrong.
This is not a game of bishops or whatever. Everyone is pretty much a VT until they get their action in and after that they're a VT once again, therefore the game should be played like that. Obviously we should try to avoid killing people who has a night action the very next night, but that is also most likely what scum are going to claim. It is very important we do not turn this into a tpr show where we want to test out every single claim, because that is not how we're going to win this. This should be played like a normal game with the occasional cop check (and doc protect).

We will need to think why the mafia picked this target over any other.

We really don't. I'm not going to talk about the NK target once again, but just know that it's very doubtful we can read into it, especially in this game where everyone is a TPR. Sure we can discuss their choice for a while but we can't use it for anything. Maybe they killed him because they thought he was a threat or maybe they're trying to frame someone - in either case we won't know for certain and people better not base their reads on a NK. I mean sure if they already have a case on someone it might be worth mentioning the NK as well but they should definitely not base their read around it. I'm not sure why you are so interested in all this WIFOM crap.

It IS the town's only was to kill scum. It is also the town's only way to kill a townie. So, to make it completely and utterly true it should be "it's the town's only way to kill". Period.

The town needs to kill SCUM. I fully agree. The town does NOT benefit from killing it's own though, hence I'm calling for an informed lynch rather than one for the sake of lynching.

Very questionable statement.
Town loses every day they do not lynch. Sure it often happens we end up lynching a townie, but that's part of the game and it will give us information. A lynch is the conclusion of the day, if we decide not to lynch the day has basically been useless. In general town should never no lynch, although there are a couple of situations where it makes sense to do it. Not on day 1 though.
You're calling for an informed lynch, but don't realise that to get an "informed" lynch we need information - which is why we need a day 1 lynch because otherwise we might end up with another day 1 tomorrow. Wanting to keep people alive because they may get a guilty check in night X is simply wrong.

I honestly don't see the reason to continue. No offense but I think your arguments are poor but that doesn't necessarily make you scum. I'd say that you are either an inexperienced player or scum.
If that is not the case, I truly do not understand how you can possibly believe that it is better to no-lynch but oh well.

[duppin]

Actually you know what, I'm sorry I shouldn't have responded to that post. We should not discuss whether to no lynch or not anymore. You have your opinion, and while I disagree and think it's fairly questionable there is nothing more to it at the moment. It is obvious at this point that we are going to lynch someone today, so let's focus on that.

Almost50 you are the leading wagon. Who do you want to lynch? Keep in mind no lynch is not an option.

[duppin]

Does anyone have a reason for not posting/hammering?

I do. I will post after some time.

Still waiting for this by the way.

[chilledtea]

Does anyone have a reason for not posting/hammering?

I do. I will post after some time.

Still waiting for this by the way.

You will see content from me soon.

I just wanted to say that a cop claim doesn't mean much, and night 1 claim actually made me more suspicious of snarky - but I've yet to fully catch up. So yeah there's that. Sorry that I haven't said much but ongoing games.exe.

[Lowell]

Very strong townvibes from duppin and pisskop.

Somewhat the opposite on chilled and (now) snarky.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Votecount 1.12

Almost50 [4]

: SnarkySnowman, duppin, Rhaegar, Killthestory

SnarkySnowman [2]:

Kop, Autti

Lowell [1]

: pisskop

duppin [1]

: chilledtea

Autti [1]

: pistachi0n

Killthestory [1]

: drmyshottyizsik

Not Voting:

Almost50, Lowell, KainTepes

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 will end in (expired on 2016-04-03 09:11:42).

[Almost50]

why the fuck are we still discussing no lynches?

Because you're scum and desperately dying for a mislynch bc you know it's in your best interest. that's why.

[drmyshottyizsik]

why the fuck are we still discussing no lynches?

Because you're scum and desperately dying for a mislynch bc you know it's in your best interest. that's why[/quote/]
I agree

[Almost50]

Town usually has a cop in 99% of the games, that doesn't mean it's wiser to do a no lynch.

The friggin' cop in other games is an all nights cop. The copS here are specific night cops. Lynching one is like roleblocking a cop result in a usual game.

The overwhelming general rule is you don't lynch a claimed PR on D1. In this game every townie IS a PR. What you're doing is either lynching a claimed PR or you're exposing all PRs with their corresponding specific nights to the scum. If I claimed N1 doctor (say) then scum will know not to target SS, but WILL kill someone else. If I claimed N2 doctor they might as well take me out tonight OR risk shooting SS not knowing whether there's a N1 doctor or not.

GDI, this is very much like Titus in Blitz 26, only then Ranger was in game and got my back. Otherwise I would have been lynched and the town would have most probably lost.

Now I can't tell whether duppin is the pignash of this game or is actually scum but I now know KTS is scum.

VOTE: KTS

Both his push for a lynch and his read list suck more than a 2000W vacuum cleaner.

[Lowell]

Feeling kind of town about Almost50.

[pistachi0n]

Yeah. Almost isn't scum. Almost is a clueless townie.