Mini 738: The Town of Merrin - Game Over

[GIEFF]

qwints, if you really thought the Zilla wagon was scum-driven, shouldn't you be saying something other than just the fact you think it's scum-driven? If your objective is to hunt scum, you wouldn't just use your suspicion of a player being scum as defense, you would use it as offense, trying to build a case against that person.

Or is catching scum not one of your conditions for victory in this game? You seem more eager to defend Zilla than to try to find scum.

Here are your words about Zilla:

On the most likely town side:
Zilla
Asking for a summary is suspicious, but it suggests a lazy player rather than a scummy one. Since then, her posts have been aggressive and fairly detailed.

I read the attack on zilla to be more based on her abrasiveness than her actual play. Being aggressive is pro-town (especially on day 1.) I need to re-read more closely to see if there is a scummy motive behind the misrepresentation

I assume you haven't read more closely yet?

I understand that zilla isn't being attacked for being abrasive, I just think she's being attacked because she is abrasive. I read it as a scum-led drive against an unpopular player.

Here are your words about who you find scummy:

Here are my thoughts so far:
Mykonia and panzer come off as the scummiest players right now, and they could certainly be part of a team. Panzer attacked Mykonia early on and then tried to dismiss it as a joke, despite claiming that his vote "moved us out of the random voting phase." Here's the key points about them that I find scummy:

Panzer
*Seriously votes Mykonia and then tries to back off of it
*Started an unproductive discussion about whether to go after the sk or the mafia
*Attacked GIEFF for tunnel vision rather than dealing with the attack
*Most seriously, asked why Mykonia was scum in post 350

Mykonia (aka: the unhelpful, it burns)
I'll flesh this out soon, but mostly I was bothered by him describing what had happened rather than providing analysis. I also see signs of unhelpful opportunism

"soon" has come and gone, and still no fleshing. I guess you found a softer target in B_B?

vote Beyond_Birthday
I now think that BB is the most likely scum.

Defending scummy play by calling yourself lazy/stupid is unhelpful. This wasn't the first time BB did so. It looks to me like scum trying to pre-empt discussion of their scummy behavior.

Another instance of admitting to anti-town behavior instead of explaining it. You can't just ask us to write off your scummy behavior.

These are literally all the accusations you have made in this thread: not a lot more text than the text you have spent defending Zilla.


It is also odd that you say mykonian and Panzer are the scummiest, yet you hop on the B_B wagon without presenting any original reasons, probably because it looks like an easy lynch.

The same players are driving the Zilla wagon that were driving the B_B wagon; where was this "scum-driven wagon" excuse then?

You have been excessively lurky, your predecessor dropped off the map after being accused of being scummy, and now you are defending a Zilla wagon for reasons that would have applied equally well to the B_B wagon, onto which you QUICKLY hopped without writing a single word about him prior to that point.

Hello, scum. Meet my vote.

unvote

vote qwints

Zilla, I would very much like to hear what you think about my above post.

[Dourgrim]

OK, first of all, I apologize profusely for my hypocrisy. I do NOT usually lurk in games, and I should have made a point of posting content yesterday regardless of being ill. I was home all day, I just didn't trust myself to post clearly in an environment where we've all shown that every single word of every single post can and will be analyzed to the Nth degree. GIEFF has made a living out of pointing out my inconsistencies all game, and I was (I believe rightfully) worried that any analysis I might've provided would be flawed at best.

GIEFF: I am

not

ignoring your question of my stance re: Panzer/myko, but I'm having a very tough time trying to figure out how to phrase my thought processes in that regard. I am going to need to reread the whole frigging thread to figure it out. Not sure about GIEFF still, but I think most of that is because I was in his crosshairs for so long before. There's still the "Dourscum" thing, but that's not really enough to base a case on.

Did I see earlier in the thread that I'm being linked to Zilla now? Is this because I said above that I believed Zilla to probably be Town? I did say that, but I'd be a liar if I said that my opinion hasn't changed since Goat/GIEFF's analysis of Zilla's case. The most telling part for me is Zilla's vote for Goat while BB is supposedly her top suspect. That makes no sense at all. The vote switch later is "too little too late" IMHO.

I can only hope you guys will give me time to read through things and develop more informed opinions here. I have to reduce my posting time, though; work started to suffer in the weeks since I've come back to mafiascum, and I can't let that happen.

I'll say this, though: I don't think Panzer is the best lynch choice anymore today. Not sure whether it's BB or Zilla. I will reread tonight or tomorrow morning and weigh in again.

Sorry for lurking, guys.

[Beyond_Birthday]

unvote

vote qwints

Zilla, I would very much like to hear what you think about my above post.

Interesting and all, but to question Gieff:
If Qwints is scum, what does that alignment say about other players?

At Dour: It seems you have read far enough to know about the turning of tides, but tell me, what do you think of Gieff's attack on qwint?

[GIEFF]

If qwints is scum, then Zilla is more likely to be scum.

But scum can irrationally defend both townies AND scum, so qwints flipping scum wouldn't 100% implicate Zilla.

[Goatrevolt]

Did I see earlier in the thread that I'm being linked to Zilla now? Is this because I said above that I believed Zilla to probably be Town?

I'm guessing you were referring to my "player shift" post. It's unrelated to you saying you thought Zilla was town. I'm not even going to go into it at the moment, because that is contingent on Zilla being lynched and turning up scum. I'm fairly confident she will turn up scum, but getting her lynched has been difficult. Half the game has resorted to lurking or giving feeble Zilla-defenses in light of the recent push. People think the wagon on her is too easy, I'd have to respectfully disagree.

I think qwints is more likely to be scum if Zilla is scum. I think Zilla is far more likely to be scum than qwints is.

GIEFF, do you think the evidence points to qwints being more likely to be scum than Zilla? I'm skeptical of your vote change here, right after you confirmed your vote on Zilla. I think there are decent points against qwints (I don't agree with everything you said, but I'll see how he responds), but is a weaker vote on Birthday and a poor defense of Zilla scummier than the mounds of evidence against her? I can see townie justifications for how qwints has been playing, and I feel his posts have been at least consistent. I simply cannot see townie justifications for Zilla's actions.

[GIEFF]

I would like to hear qwints respond to me before I respond to you, Goat.

[PJ.]

I think this is getting dangerously close to talking too-much and overthinking this first lynch.

[Goatrevolt]

I think this is getting dangerously close to talking too-much and overthinking this first lynch.

What do you mean?

[PJ.]

I'm a believer that a day can be TOO long. It can steer away from the scum and can confuse the town and convolute good conversation and lead to a mislynch.

[Goatrevolt]

I can agree with that. What do you think about Zilla?

[PJ.]

I think Zilla is pretty much Caught Scum. But that's just me. To me, nothing she has said has changed my intial opinion of her.

[Goatrevolt]

Why are you voting Birthday, then?

[qwints]

I think we've learned that failing to follow GIEFF gets you voted...

I don't have time to thoroughly evaluate the case against zilla but it just doesn't feel right to me. Beyond birthday was much scummier.

[mykonian]

Yeah, GIEFF has the same problem that Zilla also has. Failing to agree makes you a target, like I found out both ways. After rereading, I'd like to ask why Zilla attacked me and goat in the start. And why she has the feeling that a whole scumteam is needed to get her this many votes...

[GIEFF]

Do you guys really think that I voted qwints because he didn't agree?

Re-read my post. That is a ridiculous misrepresentation.

[PJ.]

Because I was V/LA and forgot I switched Goat, sorry

Unvote:Vote:Zilla.

[GIEFF]

The same players are driving the Zilla wagon that were driving the B_B wagon; where was this "scum-driven wagon" excuse then?

Still waiting, qwints.

[Dourgrim]

I think GIEFF's right: that is a gross misrepresentation of his vote. His vote for qwints is based on logic and voting patterns, not a simple disagreement. As such, I think his case has merit, although it's certainly not the strongest case presented today.

GIEFF, regarding my Panzer/myko case from forever ago: I think the defenses of each other were odd, but myko didn't lie and Panzer did, or at the very least changed his mind. I still feel like they both were stating their cases similarly and were therefore linked, but I'd have to attribute most of that feeling to pure hunch at this point. I can't really come up with anything more substantial than that at this point, which sounds weak even to me, but there it is.

Goat's case on Zilla is pretty damn good IMHO, but I don't think we should discount BB (or even Panzer) entirely just yet. I'm going to try and make time to reread again today before voting, but just to be sure...

unvote

[GIEFF]

Thanks, Dourgrim. If you have time, could you also respond to my post 478, especially the part about my post 224 and the 1-4 numbering?

[Dourgrim]

GIEFF: I wasn't intentionally ignoring anything in post 224. I just lost track of the debate amidst all of the other conversations, and then when you forced me to go back and read it again, it struck me at that moment as condescending. For some reason your style of debate has that effect on me quite often, I'm noticing.

Regarding the four numbered points: #1 is correct. #2 is completely incorrect, and here's why:

OK, I just noticed something that changes my viewpoint here: both Zilla and Goat are nuking the hell out of each other in the thread, and yet neither one is voting for the other. Zilla's voting for myko, and Goat's voting for BB. At least Goat has said that he thinks BB is the correct lynch for today and is voting accordingly; what gives, Zilla?

And, to live by my own standards...

unvote: BB

vote: Panzer

I have never once said that lynching BB is a bad idea. I said that I believed we had better targets for lynching because of the WIFOM, and as the above quote points out, I said that I thought players should vote for their #1 suspect (for me, Panzer at the time), but I did

not

say that lynching BB was a bad idea, WIFOM notwithstanding.

Back to your numbers: #3 is correct, but #4 is not because it's based on #2 being correct (which it isn't). Does that make more sense to you?

[GIEFF]

It does make more sense, but if you change the words "a B_B lynch is a bad idea" to "a B_B lynch is less viable, to the extent that I will unvote" then I think my point is valid.

My general point is just that the WIFOM you used to justify your unvote of B_B was injected BY B_B HIMSELF, and should therefore not be taken into consideration, at least not to the extent that you did.


I also still don't agree that this WIFOM makes B_B's lynch any less viable. So what if he's linked to Zilla? I thought that links were good things? If B_B and Zilla are both town, and we blindly lynch one after the other flips town, then of course that is horrible play. Why didn't you make a similar point about the myko and Panzer? Is there a reason to fear Zilla and B_B both being town MORE than you fear myko and Panzer both being town?

[Dourgrim]

It does make more sense, but if you change the words "a B_B lynch is a bad idea" to "a B_B lynch is less viable, to the extent that I will unvote" then I think my point is valid.

My general point is just that the WIFOM you used to justify your unvote of B_B was injected BY B_B HIMSELF, and should therefore not be taken into consideration, at least not to the extent that you did.

But neither portion of that is accurate. I didn't say lynching BB was a bad idea... I just said that I believed lynching Panzer was a better idea. You're mixing two separate ideas here. I didn't use the WIFOM to justify the unvote, I simply moved my vote from BB to Panzer because I stated in the above quote that I thought players should be voting for their #1 suspect, and I believed Panzer to be more scummy than BB because of the lie, etc.

I also still don't agree that this WIFOM makes B_B's lynch any less viable. So what if he's linked to Zilla? I thought that links were good things? If B_B and Zilla are both town, and we blindly lynch one after the other flips town, then of course that is horrible play. Why didn't you make a similar point about the myko and Panzer? Is there a reason to fear Zilla and B_B both being town MORE than you fear myko and Panzer both being town?

I have said numerous times in the thread that I believe BB to be my #2 suspect (although recent developments hint strongly at Zilla), and so I'm not and never have said that I thought BB wasn't a viable choice for lynch because of WIFOM. Since Goat's case against Zilla, however, I've revised my opinion of Zilla's Townie-ness and am not all that worried about both her and BB coming up Town anymore.

And I didn't make a similar point re: myko/Panzer because I had gut suspicions of both of them at the time and believed that the link would be telling if/when we lynched Panzer (who I still believe is a viable lynch choice). Since then I've revised my opinion of myko somewhat, believing that there is a language barrier that may have caused players (including myself) to interpret some of his posts differently than his intentions may have warranted. The link between him and Panzer is still there, though...

[kloud1516]

Vote Count IX

Zilla

(4): Beyond_Birthday, Goatrevolt, militant, Panzerjager

Beyond_Birthday

(2): qwints, Zilla

Panzerjager

(2): ting=), subgenius

GIEFF

(1): mykonian

qwints

(1): GIEFF

Not Voting:

springlullaby, Dourgrim

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Please notify me if there is a discrepancy in the list above

[Zilla]

Shortish-between-class post: On GIEFF's qwints case: again a lot of interpretation, and surprising that you're switching off of me for it. Some points are quite valid.

Actually, I just now remembered he was the replacement for MacavityLock. I'll have to reread both of them when I have more time.

I actually think putting pressure on him may be a good idea, though he strikes me more as an uninvested player more than anything, a perfect scapegoat for ambitious scum. The problem is that he hasn't contributed much to judge it on. People make mistakes, but it's all about the intent and cause of those mistakes, and, again, I haven't heard enough from him to see whether his intent is pro- or anti-town.

[GIEFF]

Some points are quite valid.

Which ones in particular?

I actually think putting pressure on him

may

be a good idea,

though

he strikes me more as an uninvested player more than anything, a perfect scapegoat for ambitious scum. The problem is that he hasn't contributed much to judge it on. People make mistakes,

but

it's all about the intent and cause of those mistakes, and, again, I haven't heard enough from him to see whether his intent is pro- or anti-town.

The wishy-washiness is dripping off of this post. Please re-read all of qwints' and macavity's posts (shouldn't take more than 2 minutes), re-read my case, and commit to how you feel. If some points I raised are valid, then doesn't that mean he is more scummy than neutral in your eyes?


-------------------------

qwints, I'll need to see more of a response than "GIEFF is attacking me for disagreeing." It makes no sense at all to think that, of two wagons that were driven by the same two people, one is valid enough to deserve your vote and one is "driven by scum."

-------

You're mixing two separate ideas here. I didn't use the WIFOM to justify the unvote, I simply moved my vote from BB to Panzer because I stated in the above quote that I thought players should be voting for their #1 suspect, and I believed Panzer to be more scummy than BB because of the lie, etc.

Dourgrim: I assumed that your first two paragraphs laid out the reasoning for the conclusions you made in your third and fourth paragraphs in this post. Is this assumption wrong?

I also assumed that a large part of the reason you unvoted B_B was the logic you put out in that post. That post was the first time you brought up any problems with a possible B_B lynch, and the first time since you voted B_B that you said you think Panzer would be a better lynch.

Again, were the first two paragraphs unrelated to the conclusions you made in the 3rd (B_B lynch has problems with it) and 4th (Panzer lynch is best)?