Mini 802 -Streets of Verona (Game Over)

[Zilla]

No you didn't.

[Zilla]

To give more than a three word reply, I checked your iso, and you didn't clarify anything. You talked about Artem a bit, but you didn't say anything about Jahudo.

[Zilla]

Furthermore; you claim RBT is scummy. Can you provide examples?

[Zilla]

This thread also needs more Porkens, Farside, and RBT. More Konowa would also be appreciated.

[Budja]

odd != scummy here.
I find the sudden switch to RBT odd but generally irrational as a scum action. I just find it unlikley scum would suddenly switch to the RBT wagon like that. I am not been two-sided on the issue, I think Jah is town but I dislike his current play.

Not obvious, but this is where I posted my opinion on Jah.

RBT:
Careless with vote -> anti-town but also appears to be opportunistic. See RBT's recent hop on the farside wagon, artem wagon.
Refusal to answer/explain/expand on anything -> Worse than many anti-town players is that RBT fails on even basic clarification of anything.
I see RBT's play as scummier than most classic antitown players (e.g. zwet) largely for the blatent oppitunism.

[charlatan]

Charlatan and Budja: It's not that she's playing so bad that she can't be scum, and I am HIGHLY critical of you two for presenting the case that way. It's how everyone has reacted to the case, coupled with the fact that she's just playing BAD, not scummy.

When someone says that playing as poorly is she is does "not make sense from a scum perspective," yes, "too bad to be scum" is

exactly

what they are saying.

I've shown how I think that the reactions to the case do not, in my mind, convince me that she is town. What I'm curious of is your bizarre double-standard in the matter. You didn't bother to give much of a response to my Post 588, but let me recap: The RBT wagon bothered you. The Artem one does not seem to. Yet, every single person on it at the time you commented on it was someone you have voiced strong suspicions about. You dismissed any worries before by saying "maybe they're being forced to bus their scum partner", which doesn't really hold water, since it's the first four votes we're talking about.

Furthermore, is it impossible for scum to play badly? Nobody seems to consider the fact that, yes, scum can suck at playing scum, too.

Both of you have failed to produce any evidence that says she's playing like scum, or adequately proven that this play style is really beneficial to scum.

I don't think this playstyle is beneficial to scum. I also don't think it's beneficial to town. What about this is difficult to understand? I do not, and never have, been suspicious of her on the purely basis of lurking, placing unjustified votes, or dodging questions, all of which are the hallmarks of her play. I

do

, however, find her suspicious for vote-hopping based entirely on the flow of public opinion (something Jahudo has also been accused of, by the way, but I suppose it's cool when RBT does it.)

Read my sixth post in isolation. There I laid out the specific instances I see of her edging towards the most convenient lynch at any given time. Instead of showing (with things like evidence) that that is a bad way to read her play, what I've gotten is a repeated chorus of "the wagon is too easy" and "she's anti-town, but not necessarily scummy!" Minus convincing evidence, I'm not moved. You and Goatrevolt are both guilty of dismissing or ignoring points without doing the legwork, and expect me to change my mind?

Great example:

I'm sure there are differences.

Translation: I haven't done the homework, but I assume you are incorrect anyways.

If you guys can't engage when I do put forth arguments to explain my suspicions, don't bother telling me I've never produced any evidence to support my vote (because I have, and it's right here in the thread.)

Also: Charlatan, you seem to be pushing the easy targets as well; Porkens and RBT.

Right. Remember that time I voted for Porkens? And the times when I encouraged others to?

Oh, wait.

I'm trying to keep Porkens in the game. As soon as he was "cleared", he basically stopped playing. Before that, I found him very scummy and have explained why. I ask him questions sometimes, but he doesn't feel the need to answer them. Why should he, after all? Nobody else in the game is interested in looking at him at all, it seems, except maybe Artem. If he's a Godfather, we're probably in a lot of trouble, since nobody is batting an eye at his non-participation and complete lack of attempts to even appear townish, and yet nobody is holding him accountable for it.

What it all comes down to is that you seem to think that the "easy" lynch is necessarily the wrong lynch, and I don't. Sometimes the scummy players are actually scum, and some players play a poor game regardless of alignment.

[Juls]

Vote Count #29

4 - farside22: (Goatrevolt, Jahudo, Riceballtail, charlatan)
2 - Artem: (Konowa, Budja)
2 - Riceballtail (farside22, Artem)
1 - Jahudo: (Porkens)
1 - Budja: (Zilla)

0 -

Not Voting:

With

10

alive, it takes

6

to lynch.

Deadline:

July 16, 2009, 8:30p.m. CDT

REMINDER: Deadline is in ~12.5 hours.

[Artem]

Also: Charlatan, you seem to be pushing the easy targets as well; Porkens and RBT. You and Artem are guilty of this.

For the billionth time, what the heck constitutes an easy target?

If somebody claims scum, are they an easy target and should be given a free ride the entire game because "scum wouldn't claim scum"?

I see some very clear signs of Budja-Jahudo cooperation/collusion. I also don't like the way the Jahudo train was derailed. I ALSO don't like that I have a scum read on Jahudo but his reads are too close to mine. All of this, and I haven't like Budja's vague play all day, and he deserves a lot more attention than he's getting. The fact that so few people are making any reference to Budja tips me off that scum are pretty happy with him not receiving any attention, and if he flips scum, I'm all the more confident in my Jahudo read.

Well, you know, it's not too late to get that Jahudo wagon back on track.

Unvote; Vote: Jahudo

[Jahudo]

I also don't like the way the Jahudo train was derailed.

Weren't you the one that derailed it by unvoting?

[Artem]

I'm V/LA tonight through Monday.

[Zilla]

Charleton: When there's 4 vultures circling someone and all claiming to be willing to hammer, that's not scum bussing, that's scum trying to figure out how not to get caught in the flip.

bah, out of time, back after work.

[Zilla]

but first: artem: why not Budja?

[Artem]

Because Budja is not one of {RBT, Jahudo}.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 27#1766027

[Porkens]

easy lynches are never the wrong choice.

unvote; vote farside

[Goatrevolt]

easy lynches are never the wrong choice.

Yeah. I mean easy lynches are probably easy because they're on scum and the scum are interested in busing!

I will say that I am a little nervous about how quickly people decided to swap to farside after I harassed people about not being on the wagon, but the only person on board who I'm reading as scummy is Charlatan, so I'm still seeing this as the green light to success.

Deadline is tonight. Hopefully farside bothers to claim today, but it seems unlikely. Someone should definitely hammer before 8 pm.

[Jahudo]

Budja is not a good lynch. Farside is.

[Juls]

Vote Count #30

5 - farside22: (Goatrevolt, Jahudo, Riceballtail, charlatan, Porkens)
2 - Artem: (Konowa, Budja)
1 - Riceballtail (farside22)
1 - Jahudo: (Artem)
1 - Budja: (Zilla)

0 -

Not Voting:

With

10

alive, it takes

6

to lynch.

Deadline:

July 16, 2009, 8:30p.m. CDT

REMINDER: Deadline is in 3 hours.

[charlatan]

Charleton: When there's 4 vultures circling someone and all claiming to be willing to hammer, that's not scum bussing, that's scum trying to figure out how not to get caught in the flip.

Um, or it's not? It can be a variety of things, and how you read it all boils down to how you see the alignments -- you and I don't agree on those, so I don't see it this way.

I know you're not a flake, so I'm just going to assume you're too busy to actually respond to my post before the deadline. Since this RBT debate has nothing to do with today's lynch anyways, it can wait.

Yeah. I mean easy lynches are probably easy because they're on scum and the scum are interested in busing!

Note, for the record: Farside is the easiest lynch in the game right now, and the speed at which the bandwagon grew is a testament to this. I said this before. I'm not hopping off because I understand that the "easy" and "hard" wagons bit is a dichotomy that has no bearing on alignment.

[Goatrevolt]

One hour. Someone please hammer.

[Budja]

unvote,vote Farside

Done.

[Juls]

It was a difficult day with most everyone being under some level of suspicion. Riceballtail was fitted for the noose early and it looked like he would certainly be the one to hang but the tables were turned to Jahudo. With the sun setting someone in the crowd yelled "Make a list!!!". The angry mob began to chant with great passion "Organize...Organize....Organize!!!". When the cheers faded it was clear that farside was a top contender on everyone's list. Juls urged them to make a decision. "Night is falling, they will be back! Hurry!" she cried. "Fine...farside it is!" they agreed. She had been very quiet for most of the day but after searching the premises she was finally located and took her spot on the scaffold. As silent as she was in life, so was she in death. Not even a wimper.

farside22,

Mafia Rolecop

has been lynched.

Night Actions are due to me within the next 72 hours.

Vote Count #31 (Final Vote Count Day 2)

6 - farside22: (Goatrevolt, Jahudo, Riceballtail, charlatan, Porkens, Budja)

1 - Artem: (Konowa)
1 - Riceballtail (farside22)
1 - Jahudo: (Artem)
1 - Budja: (Zilla)

0 -

Not Voting:

[Juls]

The town adjourned with the satisfaction of at least partially avenging Romeo's death. Juls had began to second guess her decision to involve the town but they had proved to be valuable in her hunt for justice. Despite their victory the town could not let their guard down and assigned several people to keep watch. As their eyes grew heavy the town was awakened to the smell of burning flesh. This can't be good...

charlatan,

Jack of all Trades

charbroiled.

Day 3 begins. With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: August 12, 2009

[Juls]

Vote Count #32

8 -

Not Voting:

Goatrevolt, Jahudo, Riceballtail, Porkens, Konowa, Budja, Artem, Zilla

With

8

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Deadline:

August 12, 2009, 8:30p.m. CDT

[Jahudo]

Who do you have, Officer Goat?

I guess bussing is possible but I don’t see if from Goat, RBT or Porkens. Budja is most likely to be the bus since he disagreed with the wagon before voting. I still read him as town tho.

I quick read through Konowa’s posts showed me that he ignored farside and managed to ask several people about Rhinox without ever giving a town/scum reading.

He went inactive before farside became a viable lynch, but Rhinox was a case well before that time. This makes me think he could be scum with farside.

Artem gave more of a read on Rhinox but put other people as scummier the only time he actually said Rhino looked scummy. He also mostly ignored farside and didn’t address whether he supported the wagon in the end. This also makes me think he could be scum with farside.

Zilla was on rhinox/farside more than plenty enough but changed wagons at the end. The timing doesn’t look like a smart move for scum to do, but that sounds like a WIFOM situation thinking about it. Still she was on rhinox hard, which more reason to keep on thinking she’s town.

Scum are Konowa and Artem.

Vote: Artem

[Artem]

Goat, who did you target?