Mini 1341 - Game Over!


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Post Post #625 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:31 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 610, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Currently think it's either Salamence20-Whiskers or Junpei-Whiskers (Junpei-Salamence20 seems unlikely given ). Will do a re-read when I get some time to see if I can't narrow it down to one pairing.

Would also like Salamence20 to explain his hammer. That post by Alduskkel doesn't seem like one that would normally lead to a hammer.

Who cleared pecanpie?
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Post Post #626 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:32 pm

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

That AurorusVoxkill (the purpose of which was presumably to frame ICEEyes) really does fit Whiskers too well.

P-edit: No one cleared him. I just think he's town.
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Post Post #627 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:34 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 626, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:That AurorusVoxkill (the purpose of which was presumably to frame ICEEyes) really does fit Whiskers too well.

P-edit: No one cleared him. I just think he's town.

1) Kill speculation like that is noob-level analysis. So not only do you act like Empking, but you're about as good as he is too.

2) Why is pecanpie a town read?
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Post Post #628 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:44 pm

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

"like that"

If you just mean night kill speculation in general, then you're wrong. I know too much about mountainous-type set-ups and seen scum kill off the right people too often to disrespect the power of the nightkill. Nightkill speculation
is hard
but can absolutely be useful when applied properly.

If you're doing about this case in particular, you're even more wrong. The AVkill is weird. It was fairly obvious what AV was going to do and it wasn't going to help the town. What would lead a newbie like brundibar or an inactive player like acfan to take a stroll off the beaten path like that? On the other hand, I know Whiskers is fairly unpredictable and does weird stuff from my experiences with him. What is "noob-level analysis" about that?
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Post Post #629 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:47 pm

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

As for pecanpie: you can see in several places clear signs that he's really put some thought into his scumhunting; his bending of the ongoing games rule; and his questioning the Michel kill.
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Post Post #630 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:48 pm

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

Link for that second one.
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Post Post #631 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:59 pm

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I disagree, you have no idea what the rationale of a scum player might be based on their experience/viewpoint. And if you do it's because you're in the QT.

Everyone appears to have put thought behind their scumhunting... EXCEPT YOU.
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Post Post #632 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:11 pm

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

I believe we are playing a game that's based on the notion that we can determine what scum are likely to do with at least some degree of accuracy. Like scumhunting, nightkill analysis is hard, yes, but it is not impossible. If you disagree, then why don't you address my specific attempt at nightkill analysis here?
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Post Post #633 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:12 pm

Post by Jackal711 »

VOTE COUNT 5.1


Junpei (0) -
pieceofpecanpie (0) -
Cogito Ergo Sum (0) -
Whiskers (0) -
Salamence20 (0) -

Not Voting: Junpei, pieceofpecanpie, Cogito Ergo Sum, Whiskers, Salamence20

With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch.

Day 5 deadline is Wednesday July 25th at 2:30pm or in (expired on 2012-07-25 14:30:00)



In post 624, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
Mod
, please prod Whiskers.

Done.
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Post Post #634 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:18 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 632, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:I believe we are playing a game that's based on the notion that we can determine what scum are likely to do with at least some degree of accuracy. Like scumhunting, nightkill analysis is hard, yes, but it is not impossible. If you disagree, then why don't you address my specific attempt at nightkill analysis here?

Yes, we should be able to determine what scum are likely to do. For instance, will they accumulate an odd or even number of posts day 1? Or, will they FoS their partner? Vote their partner day 1?

There's too many possibilities. I discredit your night kill analysis on a fundamental basis.
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Post Post #635 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:50 pm

Post by pieceofpecanpie »

Please excuse me.

A bit busy, I'll check in later today and get some content up. Don't do anything exciting while I'm gone, we've got to be careful.
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Post Post #636 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:26 pm

Post by Salamence20 »

In post 625, Junpei wrote:
In post 610, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Currently think it's either Salamence20-Whiskers or Junpei-Whiskers (Junpei-Salamence20 seems unlikely given ). Will do a re-read when I get some time to see if I can't narrow it down to one pairing.

Would also like Salamence20 to explain his hammer. That post by Alduskkel doesn't seem like one that would normally lead to a hammer.

Who cleared pecanpie?


Hey Junpei:

Smells like scumslip :P

In post 626, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:That AurorusVoxkill (the purpose of which was presumably to frame ICEEyes) really does fit Whiskers too well.

P-edit: No one cleared him. I just think he's town.


Ooops, I'm caught, time to cover.

But seriously: Junpei, I want to hear your reads. Plus I don't think you can call a guy who has been here for 7 years a noob.
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Post Post #637 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:37 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 636, Salamence20 wrote:But seriously: Junpei, I want to hear your reads. Plus I don't think you can call a guy who has been here for 7 years a noob.

I'm working on it right now..

Not sure what gave you the impression that Cogito spent any of those 7 years learning anything.
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Post Post #638 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:04 pm

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

I don't think I need to argue my credentials just because you've closedmindedly dismissed something as impossible. The nightkill is the most powerful tool scum have and thought goes into it; that's pretty incomparable with your silly examples.
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Post Post #639 (ISO) » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:51 am

Post by pieceofpecanpie »

Alright, here's where I come in again to catch up on this Day.

And an interesting time to come in too. The last couple of post vis-a-vis Salamence defending on CES' behalf and CES taking that in his stride bring me back to answering the following question...
In post 612, Junpei wrote:
pieceofpecanpie wrote:I'd hate to open up the floor to speculation immediately, but Brundi/Salamence & Cogito our long lost scum team?

Is that a question or do you have a reason to believe this?

Yes, it is a question in the sense that I want to responses from both you and Whiskers on it, and yes I have reasons to believe this.

I noted on the previous Day that CES was quite happy to defend Brundibar in Post 457 and again in Post 555. Let's look at those two posts:

Post 547 is trivial, CES says
Brundibar looks town to me.
In the same way you could say Brundibar looks like a kitten or a fireman, it has no rationale behind it that could come into question.

Post 555 contains two thoughts. Firstly he chooses to not expand on any thoughts for his vote on Alduskkel and the looming lynch. Why? Goodness knows, but it reeks. Secondly, a minor point made on why Brundi seems town, which to me seems damning not because of the point raised but what he chooses to ignore. Remember, this is well before Brundi replaced out, and so a pattern of lurking, weakly justified hammers, and a curious vote on Alduskkel the previous Day with no comment on the major bus (ICE/VE) all seem like things worth scrutinising and discussing. However, the pattern of getting some extensive thoughts from CES on Alduskkel seems continued with his lack of extensive thoughts on why Brundi seems town.

That Brundi remained absent in light of comments and questions towards him remains damning in itself. Even when taking into account that he replaced out afterwards, this doesn't account for my suspicions of his play in earlier Days. Here are two such moments where questions which I have asked Brundibar previously had been ignored:

Post #432
Why are your votes doing all the talking when you, crucially, seem to keep reasons for doing so to yourself?

FoS @ Brundibar


Post #498
Brundibar, can you explain why you prefer Alduskkel over VE?


Now I am at least grateful that Salamence has become active after replacing Brundibar. But this hasn't changed my suspicions, both due to the aforementioned defensiveness on CES' behalf and also in Post 602 the following is said,
"Cogito Ergo Sum

Faction: Null/town

Can't get a good read, but willing to trust him over the above two.
"

Now where have I heard something like this before? Oh right, CES giving his opinion on the Brundibar/Salamence. They're both calling each other town, but can't really say why. I'm not buying it. Scum team ahoy if you ask me. As a small thought on the side CES saying that I
just seem town
in Post 626 is nice to hear and all, but it again lacks any reasoning and justification and to me just seems like a statement made out of convenience rather than anything else.

Some thoughts on the other two:

Whiskers, I would love to hear something from you. I've got a town read on you for various reasons, however one of those is because of my deeper suspicious towards CES/Salamence, which doesn't exactly clear your name. Now is not the time for town to get flakey and remain silent.

Junpei is all town to me. His slot (ac) made an extremely early case on Pine's fakeclaim and was instrumental in bringing about the scum lynch. Since then Junpei has taken up the scumhunting torch and in my eyes has given a clear run of thoughts and questions to aid towns quest. I would like to add that although I believe the interest into whether I should be cleared or not was directed at CES, if you have something to to ask me Junpei you should do so. Are you holding back some thoughts of your own?
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Post Post #640 (ISO) » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:23 pm

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

What's convenient about having a town read on someone at this stage as scum?

Most of your problem with me just seems to come down to playstyle. I play a concise game and only explain things when I see a reason too (why would I have to elaborate on Alduskkel? - I wanted him lynched and he was getting lynched).
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Post Post #641 (ISO) » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:12 pm

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Been really busy, but since I see pecanpie has posted his case on the brundibar slot, I'll post my notes on it.

Brundibar:
seems to do not much early on, just making a bunch of early weak votes. This vote looks like hopping on the growing bandwagon after the Pine wagon fell off. Then backtracks off of some small thing. And out of no where, hammers on Arugula.

Acts hesitant to lynch scum-Pine, but then does when pressured to. Perhaps didn't want to take too much heat for defending Pine.

His Alduskkal vote is based off of reasoning of one thing Pine said before he was lynched. Then he replaces out.

Salamence20: I guess he hasn't done as much as I thought he had. Some things he said doesn't make a lot of sense. He trusts Whiskers/PecanPie less than CES. But then what he means is that Whiskers/Pecanpie he would vote for today but not CES. But then, Whiskers is a town read according to him, so why is this so?

Overall: Scum read.


CES: You don't play concise, you play conservative to hide the fact you don't know what to do.
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Post Post #642 (ISO) » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:59 pm

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Seeking replacement for Whiskers, who has not picked up the prod and appears to have site-flaked.
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Post Post #643 (ISO) » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:48 pm

Post by pieceofpecanpie »

In post 640, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:I play a concise game and only explain things when I see a reason to [...]

I usually find the lynching of a player a great reason to explain things.

If we're going to play judge and jury we kind of need cases to look at. That you don't want to put a case down makes it both difficult to do former and to consider your allegiance for that process.

How else do you suggest town eliminate the goodies from the baddies?
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Post Post #644 (ISO) » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:58 pm

Post by pieceofpecanpie »

In post 640, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:What's convenient about having a town read on someone at this stage as scum?

Sorry, what's the question?

If you are scum and I am town, then you would have a town read on everyone who is town from the start of the game.

Why you would choose to vocalise a town read on me at this stage seems plainly as a buddying gesture. I've never particularly subscribed to Pine's abusive style of shaking pressure, I'd say the best way to beat the heat is to stay cool. It's self-affirming to have town be told they're town and you're in a position to do so.
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Post Post #645 (ISO) » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:13 am

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

In post 641, Junpei wrote:CES: You don't play concise, you play conservative to hide the fact you don't know what to do.

So true. My entire mafia playing career is based on a lie and you're the only one smart enough to spot it.

pecan wrote:I usually find the lynching of a player a great reason to explain things.

If we're going to play judge and jury we kind of need cases to look at. That you don't want to put a case down makes it both difficult to do former and to consider your allegiance for that process.

How else do you suggest town eliminate the goodies from the baddies?

I could argue about my playstyle here, about the value of reasons vs. actions, etc., but I don't particularly think that's fruitful.
It is my playstyle.


pecan wrote:If you are scum and I am town, then you would have a town read on everyone who is town from the start of the game.

Not sure what you mean here.

pecan wrote:Why you would choose to vocalise a town read on me at this stage seems plainly as a buddying gesture. I've never particularly subscribed to Pine's abusive style of shaking pressure, I'd say the best way to beat the heat is to stay cool. It's self-affirming to have town be told they're town and you're in a position to do so.

You do realize I didn't mention it until explicitly asked about it by Junpei, right?
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Post Post #646 (ISO) » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:50 am

Post by pieceofpecanpie »

In post 645, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
pecan wrote:Why you would choose to vocalise a town read on me at this stage seems plainly as a buddying gesture. I've never particularly subscribed to Pine's abusive style of shaking pressure, I'd say the best way to beat the heat is to stay cool. It's self-affirming to have town be told they're town and you're in a position to do so.

You do realize I didn't mention it until explicitly asked about it by Junpei, right?

What's your point?

Wouldn't you say that your position would be more difficult if you'd called me scum and thus solicited myself to join Junpei in scrutinising your words? Since that's already happening the point is somewhat moot, but I don't understand what you're getting at here.
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Post Post #647 (ISO) » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:21 am

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

My town read of you was already implicit in my earlier posts. I didn't choose to vocalise it; I chose not to and only ended up doing so to answer a question by Junpei.
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Post Post #648 (ISO) » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:18 am

Post by Junpei »

A question by your number one scum read. I thought you only reveal things when you think you need to?
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Post Post #649 (ISO) » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:50 am

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

(You're not my #1 scum read.)

I think not talking to/refusing to answer questions from your scum read is silly.
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