Newbie 694 (over)

[Xtoxm]

Unvote

I have found all three of the roles holder's scummy, but I think i've seen a town-tell, and got a week to think about this so may as well use it.

[Amished]

magicrabbit: Saying cases is fine, but exaggerating points is what I was talking about, and it was something I still notice from you since my big post today. I thought I had better reasons lately to vote for you rather than other people, what about my case against you do you find flimsy? Perhaps I am reading it wrong, but without time taken by you in defense, I'd have no way of knowing until a) endgame if you're alive b) night-kill or c) lynch what you really are 100%. None of which will help now if you feel you're in danger, and is anti-town from my point of view.

Seeing the facts now (after the xtoxm unvote), and the fact that I unvoted during the intermediate period to give you a chance to defend yourself suggests more to me that we had an open mind and wanted you to try to prove to us that you were actually pro-town. Not sure about how ham feels lately (fos on xtoxm jan 12th and a fos CC twice in the same post today) still making you the most suspicious, but that doesn't lead to people making up their minds about you. This is the type of exaggeration that I have a problem with. Also, I don't recall GIEFF, CR or CC ever really expressing that much suspicion of you, so one of them would've had to deviate from their normal behavior to hammer you.

Again, not trying anymore is not going to help the town, mr. You're not at L-1 anymore, and it doesn't look like GIEFF, CC, CR or xtoxm are going to vote for you (though I don't know what CC/CR are going to do at all) I'd say you're in rather little danger.

Personally, I don't push for lynches. I try to elaborate on what I feel is scummy behavior, and behavior I don't like in a person that's supposed to be pro-town, and let others decide based on my argument. Hopefully my argument is strong and others agree with my points and add their own leading to a lynch, or there's a logical explanation for behavior and I'm proven wrong and can continue to scumhunt on a more likely target. Yet another example of your way of over-stating things, which I will continue to be annoyed by.

And then we come back to ham, who says his suspicions haven't even really been on you lately (why no unvote ham?) but apparently not really?

...

You (ham) seem to implicate MR, CC and CR all at once, state that CR was the main concern for your suspicions, mention a CR-CC scumpair, say that you're finding CR less suspicious, and then continue on to try to decide who between CR and MR is your most scummy. What are you trying to say, other than you're sitting in the middle of a field not knowing which banana is a fruit when you're surrounded by corn. Would you please elaborate on what caught your eye for all three of them being scummy?

[hambargarz]

And then we come back to ham, who says his suspicions haven't even really been on you lately (why no unvote ham?) but apparently not really?

...

You (ham) seem to implicate MR, CC and CR all at once, state that CR was the main concern for your suspicions, mention a CR-CC scumpair, say that you're finding CR less suspicious, and then continue on to try to decide who between CR and MR is your most scummy. What are you trying to say, other than you're sitting in the middle of a field not knowing which banana is a fruit when you're surrounded by corn. Would you please elaborate on what caught your eye for all three of them being scummy?

Oh dear, I've made a bad typo, My original post was supposed to say that I was originally suspicious of a CR, but lately CR seems less suspicous compared to CC and MR. CC and MR are the two that I'm tossing between. I find CC's behaviour scummy, but not willing to remove my vote just yet as MR is also scummy. I will decide after my reread. Since Xtoxm has removed his vote, I see no immediate need to remove mine from MR.

So to clarify, its CC and MR I'm tossing between, not CR and MR

[CarnCarn]

Sorry, RL just hasn't allowed me to keep up with the gobs of "content" being posted in this game. On skimming, I can say that hambargarz's suspicions are rubbish and misrepping in a big way. I am not just regurgitating others' ideas as he accused. Only point 4 was something I took at the word of others; the others were my own thoughts, although others then used those.

I apologize for the decline in posting but the large posts have delayed me from catching up.

Also, he uses my non-voting of Xtoxm to making me look scummy. CR had already made that accusation earlier, in almost the same situation in the game (oh the irony of accusing

me

of borrowing ideas...). Now, I'll respond with the same answer I gave CR: Do you (hambargarz) think I

should

vote Xtoxm now? Why should I vote him now?
Notice the key word: now. And notice also that I have repeatedly said that I haven't been able to catch up with the game. For that matter, do you think I should have been voting Xtoxm at the point when CR asked that same question?

FoS: hambargarz

I think it's much more possible now that he's scum trying to deflect attention from a scumbuddy in danger of being lynched (either magicrabbit or Xtoxm). I know this comes off as OMGUSy but it's really not because his accusations aren't worth the bits of server data they're stored in.

[Xtoxm]

Yeh it is scummy, why are you unwilling to vote someone you are apparantly so supicious of?

Vote CC

He's barely given an opinion on anyone, and only recently started to sheep onto my "easy" wagon.

[Xtoxm]

Progress update, by the way, I'm going to pick up on my re-read at five or six.

Cba?

[Xtoxm]

I just read CC and CR, and I understand why CC has been getting such a free ride (from me too) his earlier posting does look pretty good. However I don't think this affects points made against him, and I noticed a lot of his discussion has been theory based rather than trying-to-make-progress based if you get me. His more recent play and particularly how he's been attacking me looks scummy though.

CR, mixed really, I did again pick up on that scumminess I got before but i'm not really sure how to describe it.

[Xtoxm]

Naps are pretty win.

Can I ask, please, what is everyone's opinion on CC right now?

(btw - by everyone, i'd like something from all participants)

[Xtoxm]

Expect CC, if he doesn't want.

[GIEFF]

Only point 4 was something I took at the word of others; the others were my own thoughts, although others then used those.

It's still regurgitating if you aren't adding new content. I've only found one point you made all game that hadn't been made by others, in post 252.


I agree with ham's points, and the fact that you reacted so emotionally, trying to discredit ham instead of address his points, is scummy. Looking at your posts in isolation, you have provided zero scumhunting.

Please respond to ham's points rationally, without the ad hominem

[Amished]

Naps are win, wish I could take more of them. Anyways, I spent the last 30 mins or so going over CC's posts since I joined (right around Christmas).

Starting with 12/27, post 487 he's made 18 posts, only 2 of which really had any substance in my eyes (post 499, addresses 3 quotes, though not much info from it, and post 669 above, where he has a bit more substance, but more accusations).

The rest of it is mostly simple 1 liners, several on the 31st re-explaining why he voted, goes basically off-site for a week (last post 12/31, 1 post 1/4 for saying he's watching quote wars and will still be v/la) then a post 1/7 with his first reasons for thinking xtoxm is scum. These reasons are rather short in my eyes, especially looking back at them. If these were such solid reasons, why wasn't there more info to back up your case? CC then goes on to explain away #4 (the xtoxm lurking) for a couple posts, still mostly little blurbs. Talks about the too townie/scummy argument, asks for a votecount, and asks what's the motive for a lynch pre-claim. Recently (since 1/14), complains about not being able to keep up, and continues to say he's just skimming.

After nearly 3 and a half weeks, you've been "active" by posting, but nothing that important, makes me extremely suspicious. Also, the skimming that you're doing seems like a scum-tell to me, as scum could kinda skate by on skimming and picking out stuff to attack/defend at random, while townies would go through every post to try to find evidence against everyone. Even in a v/la status, you could slowly read posts and get the full picture and eventually keep up when you come back rather than not getting a read on the game at all but "staying active". There's been plenty of opportunities to actually go out and find scum in the period that I've went over, but it seems you lack the motivation to do that as well.

I think it was the flurries of "activity" from CC that kept him under the radar for me, 4 posts on the 31st (all one liners though), then some every day or every other day at least since the 12th (1 week ago). These posting patterns, as well as the skimming that I addressed shoots CC up to a strong contender for most scumlike in my eyes. At this point, either a MR or CC lynch isn't too bad in my eyes because of their respective behaviors.

Heck, I believe I've typed more in this post alone than CC has in the past 3 weeks. Unacceptable behavior for a pro-town (which I doubt you are) and expected behavior from a scum.

[Amished]

Off topic question: How do you look at posts in isolation? I've just been opening up all the pages in tabs and looking for the avatar of the person I want to look at...

[Xtoxm]

Below the "submit" button at the bottom, you see the "all users" tab? You use that. It's incredibly useful.

[GIEFF]

I just opened the file I used to take notes on CR (which I made to avoid too much info from me at once and to avoid interrupting the ham/xtoxm questioning), and found some notes I had taken on suspicious behavior by CC. I'll post them, too:

It

(self-voting)

is always anti-town. Always. Either you are scum trying to confuse the town with your voting, scum self-hammering to stop discussion in an inevitable lynch, or town who has given up on the game. All of these are terrible for town. I would vote you, normally, but the context of your self-vote is different, since it seems like you were trying to make a point about Mafia in general.

The self-vote was the start of a bandwagon which got a townie lynched. What point do you feel was made by this self-vote that made up for its other anti-town aspects, and prevented you from voting CR, as you "normally" would have done?

And anyway, the only town power role who should really try to remain hidden is the doctor, and he could play active townie just as well, it should be really easy for him, because he has no knowledge the town does not have

This is really a strange thing to say. What do you mean by "hidden"? Your suggesting this is in itself suspicious since it sounds like you are trying to influence the doctor's playstyle.
FoS: Elennaro

Elenarro was not influencing the night decision, he was giving advice in a newbie game about how a doctor should remain under the radar, which I think is very pro-town. I realize this is another original point you have made, though, so add it to the one I mentioned above.

As for a vote, I'm going to Vote: Elennaro because I want an answer from him about what he mean by the doctor staying hidden. I really don't want anyone to be trying, or thinking they can try, to manipulate how a PR plays and contributes to the game

Elenarro then explained himself, and you unvoted. You said the only reason you voted Elennaro in the first place was to make sure the doc didn't listen to him. But isn't doing so influencing the doc's playstyle just as much as Elenarro did, if not more? You weren't voting Elennaro because you thought he was scum, you were voting him to send a message to the doc.




Still waiting on CR.

[hambargarz]

It's a pity there's a deadline that's accelerating things. CarnCarn's defensive reaction can be taken either as town or scum. But I find his reaction to FOS me in return a bit on the scummy side. Stating that it looks OMGUS doesn't lower it's "OMGUSness" it only shows that you were conscious of it before (being careful of how your posts look to people is another minor scum tell). This has made my decision between CC and MR a bit easier.

Unvote
Vote: CarnCarn

@CarnCarn
I'm trying to find the reason behind you're FOS. It seems that you are FOSing me because "it's much more possible now that I'm deflecting attention from a scumbuddy (MR or Xtoxm)". Could you state what it is that has made his possibility "more possible". It appears that it's only because I posted some points against you.

On a side now, does this mean you suspect MR as scum?
Also, saying that I'm deflecting attention from MR doesn't work, because I have been one of the main players stating suspicions of MR.

To answer CarnCarn's question, ie. "Why should he vote him

now

". My answer is to make your position clear. Not committing is scum behaviour because it looks like you want a back door to easily change your mind when it suits you.

[hasdgfas]

VOTE COUNT:

Xtoxm(2): ClockworkRuse, magicrabbit
magicrabbit(1): Amished
ClockworkRuse(1): GIEFF
CarnCarn(2): Xtoxm, hambargarz


Not Voting: CarnCarn
7 alive, 4 to lynch

Deadline in

6 days

Because people were mentioning them, I thought I'd let you know that I took a nap yesterday. It was excellent.

[magicrabbit]

magicrabbit: Saying cases is fine, but exaggerating points is what I was talking about, and it was something I still notice from you since my big post today. I thought I had better reasons lately to vote for you rather than other people, what about my case against you do you find flimsy? Perhaps I am reading it wrong, but without time taken by you in defense, I'd have no way of knowing until a) endgame if you're alive b) night-kill or c) lynch what you really are 100%. None of which will help now if you feel you're in danger, and is anti-town from my point of view.

Seeing the facts now (after the xtoxm unvote), and the fact that I unvoted during the intermediate period to give you a chance to defend yourself suggests more to me that we had an open mind and wanted you to try to prove to us that you were actually pro-town. Not sure about how ham feels lately (fos on xtoxm jan 12th and a fos CC twice in the same post today) still making you the most suspicious, but that doesn't lead to people making up their minds about you. This is the type of exaggeration that I have a problem with. Also, I don't recall GIEFF, CR or CC ever really expressing that much suspicion of you, so one of them would've had to deviate from their normal behavior to hammer you.

Again, not trying anymore is not going to help the town, mr. You're not at L-1 anymore, and it doesn't look like GIEFF, CC, CR or xtoxm are going to vote for you (though I don't know what CC/CR are going to do at all) I'd say you're in rather little danger.

Personally, I don't push for lynches. I try to elaborate on what I feel is scummy behavior, and behavior I don't like in a person that's supposed to be pro-town, and let others decide based on my argument. Hopefully my argument is strong and others agree with my points and add their own leading to a lynch, or there's a logical explanation for behavior and I'm proven wrong and can continue to scumhunt on a more likely target. Yet another example of your way of over-stating things, which I will continue to be annoyed by.

Well I'm not trying to overstate things, I simply questioned what I thought odd to see what the reaction would be. If you think this is the scummiest behavior then okay, continue voting for me. I think you kind of OMGUS'd me since I nobody else was talking about you a lot maybe, maybe not. I still continue to disagree with you on the points I brought up originally, mainly why you consider certain people innocent (the ICs, CarnCarn) and I'm not going to change my mind on it.

[magicrabbit]

Sorry, RL just hasn't allowed me to keep up with the gobs of "content" being posted in this game. On skimming, I can say that hambargarz's suspicions are rubbish and misrepping in a big way. I am not just regurgitating others' ideas as he accused. Only point 4 was something I took at the word of others; the others were my own thoughts, although others then used those.

I apologize for the decline in posting but the large posts have delayed me from catching up.

Also, he uses my non-voting of Xtoxm to making me look scummy. CR had already made that accusation earlier, in almost the same situation in the game (oh the irony of accusing

me

of borrowing ideas...). Now, I'll respond with the same answer I gave CR: Do you (hambargarz) think I

should

vote Xtoxm now? Why should I vote him now?
Notice the key word: now. And notice also that I have repeatedly said that I haven't been able to catch up with the game. For that matter, do you think I should have been voting Xtoxm at the point when CR asked that same question?

FoS: hambargarz

I think it's much more possible now that he's scum trying to deflect attention from a scumbuddy in danger of being lynched (either magicrabbit or Xtoxm). I know this comes off as OMGUSy but it's really not because his accusations aren't worth the bits of server data they're stored in.

I already stated i post 620 that I basically couldn't get a read one way or another on CC which is odd; except for what I quoted in post 252 which I found offensive I haven't found anything that isn't very MOR that entire game actually. His little OMGUS of hamgargarz without really backing it up at all is suspicious even though he tries to preempt it by saying he knows exactly what its going to look like. I can see how you can maybe attempt to accuse hambargarz of defending Xtoxm, but seeing them defending me is a little absurd I think.

[magicrabbit]

I just opened the file I used to take notes on CR (which I made to avoid too much info from me at once and to avoid interrupting the ham/xtoxm questioning), and found some notes I had taken on suspicious behavior by CC. I'll post them, too:

And anyway, the only town power role who should really try to remain hidden is the doctor, and he could play active townie just as well, it should be really easy for him, because he has no knowledge the town does not have

This is really a strange thing to say. What do you mean by "hidden"? Your suggesting this is in itself suspicious since it sounds like you are trying to influence the doctor's playstyle.
FoS: Elennaro

Elenarro was not influencing the night decision, he was giving advice in a newbie game about how a doctor should remain under the radar, which I think is very pro-town. I realize this is another original point you have made, though, so add it to the one I mentioned above.

As for a vote, I'm going to Vote: Elennaro because I want an answer from him about what he mean by the doctor staying hidden. I really don't want anyone to be trying, or thinking they can try, to manipulate how a PR plays and contributes to the game

Elenarro then explained himself, and you unvoted. You said the only reason you voted Elennaro in the first place was to make sure the doc didn't listen to him. But isn't doing so influencing the doc's playstyle just as much as Elenarro did, if not more? You weren't voting Elennaro because you thought he was scum, you were voting him to send a message to the doc.

Still waiting on CR.

It is interesting because this posting by CarnCarn is exactly why Amished decided that he was pretty much automatically not scum, along with assuming that ICs are automatically not scum. I'm not going to expand on it any more because I already talked about it.

Oh and while my eye is out still I'm going to

Unvote: Xtoxm

for now since derailing a lynch on me seems protown.

I want to see this GIEFF/CR exchange as well since I've been waiting for it to play out as well.

[GIEFF]

Unvote: Xtoxm for now since derailing a lynch on me seems protown.

He was derailing a lynch on himself.

[magicrabbit]

Unvote: Xtoxm for now since derailing a lynch on me seems protown.

He was derailing a lynch on himself.

Ah well I thought I was L1 and he/she L2, though perhaps you're right.

Those two (xtoxm and hambargarz) seem to vote together a lot; I am not sure what I think about that exactly.

I was going to bring up a point about hambargarz on the possibility of him/her defending Xtoxm earlier because he/she absolutely, positively knows that they are innocent and were perhaps covering themselves for a bad-lynch... basically that too ardent defense of someone shows more about the defender than the defendee but I want to think about this all a little bit more... that is why I haven't revoted yet.

[Amished]

Well I'm not trying to overstate things, I simply questioned what I thought odd to see what the reaction would be. If you think this is the scummiest behavior then okay, continue voting for me. I think you kind of OMGUS'd me since I nobody else was talking about you a lot maybe, maybe not. I still continue to disagree with you on the points I brought up originally, mainly why you consider certain people innocent (the ICs, CarnCarn) and I'm not going to change my mind on it.

I thought I had already made it clear that I thought your evaluations of GIEFF, and slightly of ham were overstated. Also, if you refer back to post 676 by me, even though I don't FOS (just a stylistic thing, I don't know if I like them yet) CC, I did state that he became a top contender for most scummy in my eyes.

I did a reread of CR today, and I plan on doing one of xtoxm as well tomorrow, probably post my thoughts then on them. I don't know why you don't see this stuff I've posted and I thought made pretty clear if you take the time to read it.

[magicrabbit]

Well I'm not trying to overstate things, I simply questioned what I thought odd to see what the reaction would be. If you think this is the scummiest behavior then okay, continue voting for me. I think you kind of OMGUS'd me since I nobody else was talking about you a lot maybe, maybe not. I still continue to disagree with you on the points I brought up originally, mainly why you consider certain people innocent (the ICs, CarnCarn) and I'm not going to change my mind on it.

I thought I had already made it clear that I thought your evaluations of GIEFF, and slightly of ham were overstated. Also, if you refer back to post 676 by me, even though I don't FOS (just a stylistic thing, I don't know if I like them yet) CC, I did state that he became a top contender for most scummy in my eyes.

I did a reread of CR today, and I plan on doing one of xtoxm as well tomorrow, probably post my thoughts then on them. I don't know why you don't see this stuff I've posted and I thought made pretty clear if you take the time to read it.

I realize that in 676 you show suspicion; I'm talking about your original take on the matter; not on the take you took most recently.

[Xtoxm]

Unvote: Xtoxm for now since derailing a lynch on me seems protown.

He was derailing a lynch on himself.

Complete slander

FOS Gieff

[GIEFF]

Unvote: Xtoxm for now since derailing a lynch on me seems protown.

He was derailing a lynch on himself.

Complete slander

FOS Gieff

Were you derailing a lynch on magicrabbit?