Mini 568 - Nubigena (Game over!)

[Y]

Anyone has any conclusions about Near's scum-play?
The only reason I'm not voting for him ATM is that he might be a really bad townie (And no one claimed a cop-ish like role).

I do see the case about Lowell. I mentioned his lurking more than once.
ooba is another option.

gorckat, you've been here for a while, but I have no real thoughts about you. As if you talk, but not saying anything really important. I don't like it.

[ooba]

Anyone has any conclusions about Near's scum-play?
The only reason I'm not voting for him ATM is that he might be a really bad townie (And no one claimed a cop-ish like role).

I do see the case about Lowell. I mentioned his lurking more than once.
ooba is another option.

gorckat, you've been here for a while, but I have no real thoughts about you. As if you talk, but not saying anything really important. I don't like it.

I'm another option? You believe Near is gunsmith but then doubt me?

I wont be here for the weekend. Will post after that

[Incognito]

Anyone has any conclusions about Near's scum-play?
The only reason I'm not voting for him ATM is that he might be a really bad townie (And no one claimed a cop-ish like role).

I've actually been thinking about Near a bit more, and there's a few things I'm puzzled about. First of all, if Near really is the Gunsmith, I can understand why the scum may have opted to not choose him as the NK in that they may have feared that he could be the target of Doctor protection. The thing that puzzles me though is if we believe the opening flavor text is indicative of anything for the scum (i.e. the scum probably don't have a Godfather), then what other kinds of scum roles could there be? The only scum roles I could think of are Goons and Roleblockers. If the scum don't have a Godfather, wouldn't they likely have a Roleblocker to counteract the actions of pro-town power roles? And if that was the case, why was Near able to investigate someone last night? Unless of course the scum consists soley of Goons, which I'd find hard to believe.

The more I think about Near's claim, the less I buy it especially coupled with his Day 1 play and now his even stranger Day 2 play. I could definitely go for a Lowell or Near lynch today.

[Mizzy]

Incognito:

You make some good points but let me play the devil's advocate here for the moment.

a) The mafia may have a roleblocker who was AWOL during night phase.
b) There are lots of other scum roles, such as traitors or whatever.
c) They could have left him alive to invoke WIFOM.
d) There's a possibility of sanity flags, no?

Discuss!

[gorckat]

@Y: I feel like I've been pretty straightforward with my thoughts. Near and Niv/Sammich were reasonable lynches yesterday, and you and Lowell had earned some attention, too.

Right now, with hindsight being what it is, I think Near is scum.

(And no one claimed a cop-ish like role).

Or they're being smart and breadcrumbing their investigations so they can come out when Near-scum goes down with several confirmed townies at once.

[Near]

Incognito, you make a good point. If there really is a roleblocker, they didn't roleblock me for some reason. I would only get "loaded" or "unloaded" if my search goes unhindered. So, I am assuming if I got roleblocked, I would receive nothing.

There is a possibility of some kind of sanity issue here, as I still think Y being a scum is a possibility.

Lynching me would really be a stupid move for town. I find those who are pushing for my lynch most suspicious, e.g. gorckat. I will check you out next.

[Y]

I'm another option? You believe Near is gunsmith but then doubt me?

The last time I said something about Near was that I don't believe him. The above quote states why I'm not voting him yet (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now, I never said I believe him).

Or they're being smart and breadcrumbing their investigations so they can come out when Near-scum goes down with several confirmed townies at once.

I agree with you on this one. That's why I still think Near is probably lying.

I might have given the impression that I think Near is actually a real power role. I don't. I'm just saying that for now, we can't tell for sure and it could be a risky chance to take.

Lynching me would really be a stupid move for town. I find those who are pushing for my lynch most suspicious, e.g. gorckat. I will check you out next.

How lynching you is stupid?
Why won't you investigate some one who's actually doing scummy things, like Lowell? You keep deciding who's scum and who isn't depending on who wants you lynched and who doesn't. That's being a bad player.

[Near]

Lynching me would really be a stupid move for town. I find those who are pushing for my lynch most suspicious, e.g. gorckat. I will check you out next.

How lynching you is stupid?
Why won't you investigate some one who's actually doing scummy things, like Lowell? You keep deciding who's scum and who isn't depending on who wants you lynched and who doesn't. That's being a bad player.

So you want me to check out Lowell next?
So you do actually believe I am a gunsmith? Then why do you want to lynch me? Lynching even a bad gunsmith is a horrible idea for town at this stage.

[Y]

You keep confusing words with meaning. When I asked you "Why won't you investigate Lowell?", I didn't mean "I believe you. Please investigate Lowell next", as you seem to understand, but "What is the reason you think gorckat is scummier than Lowell?".

At the moment You're claiming Gunsmith. Some of us don't believe you, therefore your "results" have no real meaning for the town. Once you're dead, we can analyze those results, knowing your alignment. Having actual confirmation for the results we have isn't stupid.

[Mizzy]

Food for thought:

Perhaps they did not bother to roleblock Near because they figured he would investigate Y and scum would know if Y was innocent or not. If the cop was going to waste his investigation on an innocent, it would be in scum's interest to allow that to happen, because a) none of them would be found, b) it creates doubt as to the cop's legitimacy, and c) it might cause some hot townie-on-townie action. Which it could possibly be doing because we have this odd Y <--> Near dynamic thing going on.

[Incognito]

@Mizzy:

I'm not sure I agree with your recent interpretation. In my opinion, the fact that Near wasn't roleblocked is indicative of one of two things:

1) Near is lying scum or

2) If Near isn't scum, then the scum don't have a roleblocker and instead have a role like a Traitor or something along those lines like you indicated above. If Near is telling the truth, it would be in the scum's best interest to roleblock Near anyway since they would know that he's telling the truth even if they knew Near would be investigating someone whom they knew to be town. That would allow for even more doubt and confusion than what currently exists in this game.

A lot of this is getting WIFOMy, but I just figured I'd bring it up in the first place to get my thoughts in place about what type of scum roles we may be up against or if Near himself is scum.

Your other points in 681 I do agree with though.

[destructor]

.::] Vote Count [::.

Near (1)

- gorckat

Mizzy (1)

- Lowell

Lowell (1)

- Incognito

Not Voting (6) - Y, Imat, Mizzy, Near, Ripley, ooba

Ripley has let me know that he is recovering from his surgery and will be try to get back into the game in about three days.

[Y]

I know he's not insane nor paranoid. Maybe naive or have some percentage of insanity. I know that because I am, in fact, town (I know most of you don't know my real alignment and can't be sure, but you'll have to trust me on this one). According to the wiki, sanity isn't used much in minis.

Roleblocking a cop is almost always the better option. Sooner or later he will die, and all his results will be checked against his alignment.
Mizzy, I also don't agree with that theory. Making Near unable to investigate would hurt his credibility even more, making him a good lynch target.

I'm waiting for Near to answer my question, and I'll be direct this time (Because he misses it if I'm not): Near, why to you think gorckat is scummier than Lowell? What makes you dismiss Lowell as a potential scum?
Here's another, better, one: Near, what do you think about all the players and why? Not only who's scum or town, not only the ones you think are scum. Please don't do a "scum" list and then a "town" list. For each player, name, his possible alignment and a reason. That would be much helpful. Thank you.

[Mizzy]

I'm just trying to keep discussion going, is all.

One thing, guys, we have mislynched Niv, and no one has said diddly-squat about it. That bugs the crap out of me. Nothing to say, any of you?

[Y]

He was acting very weird (Both Summich and his replacement). I do understand whoever voted for him. That said, I still think Near was doing so for the wrong reasons.

[Lowell]

Sorry, still here. Will post, I promise.

[Y]

Sorry, still here. Will post, I promise.

I'm not voting yet, right?

Vote Lowell, FoS Near.

[Lowell]

From page 21:

504- Near leads w/ 4 votes (Y, Imat, gorckat, Niv), 3 for Niv (Near, jerub, Lowell)
507- Ripley says he'll vote for Niv
509- Y wonders why Lowell isn't voting Imat, who he suspects [odd]
511- Imat demands case from Lowell as to why he's a suspect
512- Ripley votes Niv (4th vote)
520- ooba votes Niv (5th vote)
521- jerubbaal says Mizzy is innocent for being MP [?]
522- Mizzy speaks, declares dice-gate meaningless, says we should look at XRey for accusing Sammich
531- Mizzy reiterates why she won't vote for Niv
533- Incog accuses Lowell, votes Near (fifth vote)
534-

Near claims gunsmith

, says xrey has no gun
537- Incog unvotes
541- Mizzy wants neither Near nor Niv lynched
546- Y doesn't believe claim, confirms vote on Near
551- Near further explains [very believable]
553- gorckat expresses skepticism
554- jerub believes claim
555- Lowell believes claim
557- ooba believes claim, says he already thought Near was town [?]
560- jerub puts Y at the top of his scum list
563- Lowell votes Y
576- good post by jerub, supporting claim
587- Incog votes Niv (5th vote)
588- Mizzy still doesn't want Near or Niv dead, votes Y
601- gorckat votes Y (3rd vote)
628- Mizzy votes Niv at deadline (lynch vote)
629- gorckat votes Niv (overkill vote)
634-

Niv innocent, jerubbaal killed

635- Near's "gambit"
646- Near declares Y gunless
650- Y still says Near is scum
651- gorckat now agrees, votes Near
652- Mizzy thinks Near is not scum
667- Lowell votes mizzy
673- Incog votes Lowell for lurking in plain sight
694- Y votes Lowell

For my notes.... will post again.

[Ripley]

Sorry for my absence. I can do short sessions at the computer now but lengthy rereads or posts won't be possible for a while. I'll post my thoughts in modestly sized chunks.

I agree that the scum would have guessed Y was highly likely to be Near's investigation target. But I really can't see why, if they had a roleblocker, they would not want to block the investigation of an innocent. I can just about see that if the scum were certain they'd identified a doc they might block the doc and kill Near, but we know this didn't happen because jerubbaal is dead. They only possible reason for not blocking Near that makes any sense to me would be if they wanted Y investigated because he is actually a Godfather (see next paragraph). OF course this would give the scum a Godfather AND a roleblocker, which seems quite powerful, though I haven't played enough Minis to know if it's impossibly powerful.

I think a Godfather is possible, using the principle of "the king is dead, long live the king". The mod wrote a lengthy introductory scene culminating in the death of the old Godfather, and this mod seems to have put a lot of effort into the story, and it's possible this whole scenario was to lead to the promotion of the next-highest ranking scum to be the new Godfather.

[Y]

Lowell:
509: It's odd for me to suspect some one who's not voting for the one he thinks is scum? That's odd.
551: "Very believable"? It was a slip up. It's so obvious he made some kind of mistake (He actually admits it) and is trying to explain, hoping for it to look as innocent as possible.
576: Read the post. He's weakening the claim.

That wasn't a good post. We can re-read the game by ourselves. I want to know what you think, not for you to prove me you have problems with reading comprehension. Your logic has holes as big as Near's.

I want content, not words.

[Lowell]

Y- The notes are more for my benefit than yours. Though you seem to have found some things to comment on, so clearly it has some use.

1)

vote incognito

. 533 and 537 look bad to me. He accuses me, but votes Near. Then he promptly unvotes after the claim. Both look like he's trying to play it safe.

2) I still beleive Near's claim.

3)

FOS gorckat

. He's a follower. Post 553 mimic's Y's opinion, then 651 jumps on a bandwagon.

4) Upon reread,

jerubbaal

looks very pro-town to me. I liked 576, and he seems to have a sensible outlook on what is happening.

[Imat]

Yes, Jerub looks very Pro-Town to us as well...That may or may not be because he's dead...

[Incognito]

1)

vote incognito

. 533 and 537 look bad to me. He accuses me, but votes Near. Then he promptly unvotes after the claim. Both look like he's trying to play it safe.

I had outlined my Near suspicions long before 533 and even voted him long before that as well. In fact, I had unvoted Near back in Post 256 after Mafiaplayer hastily placed him at L-1 when we hadn't even heard a word from our replacements. Post 533 was essentially my revote of the person I found scummiest all game. Obviously I'm gonna unvote after a Gunsmith claim while I waited for a counterclaim and in the absence of one, I saw no reason to lynch Near during D1. Your current OMGUS vote of me is noted though.

[gorckat]

3) FOS gorckat. He's a follower. Post 553 mimic's Y's opinion, then 651 jumps on a bandwagon.

Yes- two posts out of forty make me a follower.

553 was me weighing in on Near's claim.

651 was me agreeing that Near is scum, for reasons covered in Day 1, for the most part. And the first, and so far, only vote on the "bandwagon".

[Mizzy]

3) FOS gorckat. He's a follower. Post 553 mimic's Y's opinion, then 651 jumps on a bandwagon.

Yes- two posts out of forty make me a follower.

553 was me weighing in on Near's claim.

651 was me agreeing that Near is scum, for reasons covered in Day 1, for the most part. And the first, and so far, only vote on the "bandwagon".

Actually, just to insert my two cents, I have gotten the feeling all game that you are either a follower or simply opportunistic. It's a gut feeling mostly, so I haven't said anything til now, and I don't base anything off gut when I can help it. But I definitely got the same feeling.