Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

[MonkeyMan576]

MM- Did you read the post you quoted?

yes, and you have a very condescending attitude. Why can't you just ask the question you want answered?

[Amished]

I claimed my self-protecting doc D1 in the other game I linked to to help protect another pro-town power role. If that's not a meta of a weird role, I don't know what is. I'll find the post for you though.

[d3x]

Because this will be the third specific time it's been listed and the 8th {I think} time I've asked you to answer it. Why can't you just go back to the post I've been referencing for the last 80 posts?

Fine, I'll be nice about it.

Please, answer p614 or p653.

[MonkeyMan576]

Because even in that post I can't tell exactly what the question is.

[d3x]

Why would it be a problem to ask this question of Amished?

Allow me to rephrase, why did you have a negative kneejerk reaction to my asking Amished about the lynch?

[MonkeyMan576]

I agreed with you. I wouldn't call it a knee jerk reaction.

[Amished]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1062

Naomi_Saotome (sp?) claimed Trilby in that theme game. I thought that she was telling the truth, but in case she wasn't I claimed so that the town would have more information if anybody decided to counter-claim her without having to worry about dying that night as I could protect the real trilby as well as myself.

I can't protect more than one person here, but with MMan's hinting at damning evidence I want the information out there so it can be evaluated and move on from there. I explained why I thought his hints pertained to me and this way he can come out with his information without having to worry about outing another power role that's a common concern when coming out with your own power.

Also, fake-claiming on D2 is hard to pull off as scum and have it work out; so him claiming now is a point in his favor IMO.

(also, because I think this might jog MMan's memory a bit more, the original question that d3x asked me was in 609):

While we still have twilight left, and assuming that Scien flips Town, what are your thoughts/reactions, Amished?

[Amished]

OMG MMan. Here's the timeline, and what d3x is trying to ask (I think)

Why would it be a problem to ask this question of Amished? -snip-

which referred back to your question to me here:

While we still have twilight left, and assuming that Scien flips Town, what are your thoughts/reactions, Amished?

In the meantime (the action that caused you to question MM) was in 610.

If you're assuming Scien flips town, why did you vote for him?

Why would it be a problem to ask this question of Amished?

614 is what he wants you to answer, and the pertinent question to me is in 609.

[Dizzle]

@Dizzle: Nobody died. Unless there's a cautious vig out there (doubt it) everybody else should've killed. SK's generally *act* like a vig to set up a late game safeclaim "hey, look, i've been shooting scummy people" so I'm pretty certain that there's only 1 kill out there (scum's NK).

I guess I probably should have been able to figure that out on my own. Thanks for explaining it for those of us whose brains are not firing on all cylinders tonight.

Also, you said that Monkey's upcoming claim will be a point in his favor. But just because it's hard to pull off as scum doesn't necessarily make him town. Doesn't his immediate claim at the beginning of Day 2 feel at least a little odd?

[Dizzle]

Actually Amished, as far as you being certain you were targeted, isn't it possible that the scum chose not to kill? I randomly saw a player I had been in a past game with, I checked in the thread and they were discussing this very issue.

[Amished]

I'm banking on the fact that fake-claims are immensely hard to follow through on throughout the rest of the game. For example: a game that recently finished (Mafia 100 in New York) DeathNote, Hewitt and SnowWhite all tried to fakeclaim. Snow White was lynched instantly, Hewitt the next day and DeathNote the day after. Successful scum fakeclaims are exceedingly rare when carried out the entirety of the day.

Even take Chzo mafia that I linked to. Steph pulled off a successful fakeclaim (I contest that I should've made the town win on the last day, I got screwed over) and was caught through that. Sooner or later they crack or say something that doesn't make sense. Claims sooner rather than later harm scum probably 100 times more often than it helps scum.

[Amished]

How do scum benefit from not killing? They don't. Not on N1 at least.

They need to whittle down our numbers as fast as possible without getting caught. As scum, you can't just assume that a doc will protect whoever you're gonna shoot. Hell, it's more likely that you're worried about getting investigated and need to kill to get rid of those you think are a threat to you.

Scum not NK'ing on N1 makes about as much sense as a nipple on a guy.

[Dizzle]

The point brought up in the other thread was that it's a way to possibly out the doc, which in your self-protecting case wouldn't really do them any good.

[Amished]

They first have to assume that a doc is in the setup. In most common setups if there's a doc, there's a cop and to allow the cop an extra investigation (or a watcher to .. you know.. watch the claimed doc) will out the scum too, while delaying their objective of whittling down the town. A watcher *or* a cop break this wide open, and allow a power role another chance to find them.

[Dizzle]

In all likelihood, you are correct. The game I saw this mentioned in was a Newbie so it's a little less of a risk of there being a cop and no risk of there being a watcher. Anyway, I came across it and thought it was at least worth throwing it out there.

[Amished]

Still, if they're trying to out a doc by not NK'ing; it's a 50/50 risk. If they don't NK, they allow a cop to get another night to clear or condemn somebody. They give just as much information to a cop as themselves.

[Dizzle]

Yeah, I guess given that there's a 50% chance there's a cop and only a 25% chance there's just the doc, it's probably not worth it. Either way, these newbie scenarios have nothing to do with the current game anymore and we should probably stop wasting everyone's time.

[Chinaman]

Alright, so here goes. Bascially, I know Scien suicided and flipped town. I also know nobody was NK'ed. Although I know this info, I'll try and be as unbiased as possible and give what comes to mind. Also, to avoid a Wall of quotes, I will try and just us post numbers unless I think it's necessary. This is starting back where I left off on page 22.

p532: Scien really starts to go into defense about the case on him here. The points he is making and the way he is saying stuff makes me pause a bit. When I read posts, I like to try and look at it from town POV and then from a scum POV and see which makes the most sense. In this post, I can honestly say it looks like it is coming from a town POV. He makes some good points here.

p533: Fuzzy votes MM. This made me do an ISO on fuzzy as I don't see many large posts from him yet. Found one in ISO. He's kinda all over the place, but I don't think there's enough there to do much with. I can see his posts coming from town about as equally as I can from scum. Null read on him atm.

p538: Amish post on why MM's 'wanting to look town' statements don't make him scum. Makes sense but I am beginning to see why Scien is saying much of the case on him is WIFOM. This post is a prime example of more WIFOM from Amished. It is a valid scenario that makes sense, but it's no where near provable. I initially saw exactly what he was talking about, but then realized it was WIFOM defense of a prime suspect of mine.

p541: Wow. MM should lurk more if he's scum. This post is rediculous (as are many others). Knowing that Scien flips town, here's MM trying to distance himself from the lynch. First by saying he's not too sold, then by saying 'I'm not the one leading the mob here'. At this point I'm wondering why my vote is on someone posting from a more townie POV lately and not on MM. Still vote for Scien at this point, because I believe both are at L-1.

p545: Cruelty pipes in and all I have to say is ditto.

p549: Note some frustration from Scien. Rightfully so, his posts since I had to go had a very townie vibe.

p551: I don't like this answer. It almost bypasses the question. Dizzle was more asking WHY Amished had a town read on MM than anything else. We all know you have a town read on MM at this point by the way you keep defending him on everything. I can't recall where you had even said that you could see why people thought something he did was scummy.

p557 and p559: Have to ditto d3x here. Looks like monkey wants to make sure his avatar is on the page so when scien gets lynched, he was 'around' and 'contributing'.

p561: uh...why?

p560 and 566: I read 560 as Fuzzy asking for an extension not a no lynch. I would have been inclined to agree. It was 22 min to scien suicide but there were clearly many people on and talking. Could have stretched it out at least a 1/2 hour if not up to the wire.

p568: wow, crazy event turnage. Not explained too much though and it's right after he get's brought up. Could be coincidence but could be irl stuff. Anything past that is WIFOM.

p570: This is more BS from MM. There are plenty of players online to ensure a lynch. Also, Scien's vote is on MM and if he failed to vote himself when he said he would, I am quit positive that someone on MM's wagon would vote him for lying. No thought put into this post from MM what-so-ever. In fact, it looks like MM scrambling to make sure scien is lynched over him. MM, once I catch up, my vote is going straight to you barring any crazy info from d2.

p572 and 573: d3x addresses what I just said and MM thinks Scien is lying. What both missed was that there are MM wagoneers who are active at this time and there is an easy way to find out if Scien is lying. At this time I would have unvoted. I would have then asked Scien to vote himself doing 2 things I wish would have been done. One, take the hammer out of scien's hands. Two prolonged his ability to contribute till closer to deadline.

p574: Fuzzy speaks up and proves my point about someone on the MM wagon making sure there is a no lynch. FACT: Scien flipped town thus even if fuzzy was scum, he would have came through on this.

p575: uh...duh...he thinks you're scummier. Seriously, no thinking before posting.(note: not an actual scum post, but more annoying than anything)

p578: Amished seems uneasy about both MM and Scien being at L-1. Quotes his last post where I read that he was leaning MM but wasn't sure. He came in and voted MM to "make it interesting". That's how I read it. Nothing scummy about asking though.

p585: Jason answers amished confirming what I had thought.

p589: MM jumps on behind his protector (amished) and tries to paint something scummy onto dizzle and jason. Because I think MM is scum, I see this as a set up for tomorrow when scien flips town and he knows it. That's largely WIFOM though since it's not provable till we see an MM flip...which I'm all for today.

p590: Well, even if I hadn't seen that Scien flipped town, I knew he would here. There is zero logic in scum self-hammering. Only way is if Scien never wanted to play at this site again. Who would want a scumbuddy that does this? So yeah, at this point everyone knows Scien will flip town.

p591: Zoinks, putting the time frame into context, yeah, that looks bad on Jason...what with Raivann still alive at that point...

p592: yup

p596 and 598: clears it up a tad. still though, either you didn't read much up until you posted (just enough to know it was a race between the 2) or you have been following along for awhile and just didn't feel the need to post until called out. Had you read it all, I think you would have thought more about the case on scien than just voting for MM or coming in and not voting right away.

p597: lol, i can only guess that this post ended that back and forth between dizzle and amished.

p599: This threw me for a loop. Isn't it much more common for scum to buddy with town? Why would scum buddy with scum? They may agree, but buddying? That links 2 people together pretty well. I bought the coaching bit, but I don't know where this came from. It would have been valid had Raivann flipped town, but not here IMO. Leave your defense to Amished...he's doing a much better job.

p605: oh, brought up here.

p606: This should be OBVIOUS!

p607: The next scum we find may have everything or nothing to do with how Raivann interacted with them. People can do scummy actions all on their own. I also don't think Raivann though he was going to be modkilled so quickly. Is it not possible that he just didn't have time? Let's take you for example, you replaced someone who had zero interactions with Raivann, does that mean you are clear of suspicion? Actually, that needs to be addressed, but not right now.

p610: Another MM post with so many things wrong with it. Amished, assuming you are still on the side that MM is town, I'm going to ISO him and ask you to explain how certain posts of his are town. There is going to be a lot of them, I can assure you.

p619: bullcrap and your question was bullcrap AND answered by d3x.

p620: WHY? Scien's dead! Why would it be dangerous? He is almost certainly flipping town at this point!

p621: At the end of this post is the first (and only) time you ever hint at MM having a remote chance at being scum. Time to start "distancing" yourself as you would say?

p622: HOW?! What information could you garner from people's reactions to how they think Scien will flip at this point? He self-freaking-hammered. Again, if you think there a larger percentage than 1% that he flips scum, you are not thinking clearly (to word it nicely). To think you can gauge someone on that is also not thinking too clearly.

p625: .......I'm going to stop commenting on MM's posts now.......

p627: Dizzle, I have to disagree with you here. It was not important you answer for Jason there. At first I thought you were just butting in, but are you suggesting that you answered the question before Jason did that it was important for you to do so?

p630: I have to get some sleep now so this is where I will leave off for now, but 2 things before I go. One, while I agree there is a strong probability that there is indeed scum on scien's wagon, to say that it's 100% is pretty ballzy. Two, show me where I have buddied you Amished.

[Dizzle]

So I went back and reread the entire thread one more time. Much to my dismay, I found myself reevaluating my position on Monkey. Maybe Amished is right; with everyone claiming Manz v. Monk was town v. town that should count as some townie points for Monk. And would scum really put themselves in the spotlight so early on? Maybe myself and others exaggerated the scumminess of some of Monkey's statements, especially his "on the record" comment. And despite what my Mother tells me, I am not perfect.

Ah, but then comes Monkey's questionable behavior as the deadline approaches and passes. He never outlined a real reason for his Scien vote other than pointing to ZEE's case and some nonsense theory about Scien supposedly defending Raivann. Anyway, only after Scien promises to self-hammer if necessary does Monkey say this:

I'm also not locked on Scien, he's just the top suspect at the moment because of the Raivann connection, mostly. But I am considering the possibility this is a town vs. town argument.

Also I'd like to note I did not lead the Scien wagon, Zee did.

Pretty convenient timing, no? Once he realizes that Scien is assuredly going to be lynched, it's time to start backtracking and blaming others. I understand that Day 1 lynches are particularly tricky, but if Monkey was town shouldn't he be showing a little more confidence in his vote? Of course, if Monkey is scum, he knows Scien will flip townie and as both a Scien voter and the competing wagon all eyes will be on him.

But Monkey is not satisfied with trying to turn attention to only ZEE.

]Jason and Skruffs are going up on my scumlists.

Why? Skruffs has been MIA since last Thursday and jason has been ill with LA for weeks now. What are you getting at?

I'm getting at that I am against a no lynch and they are the main players in the way of a lynch happening.

As d3x points out, a no lynch is really not plausible at this time. Instead of only pointing fingers at one of the guys who played a large role in the Scien lynch, Monkey decides to hedge his bets by also dragging lurkers Skruffs and Jason into the mix. If 1 mislynch is good, 3 mislynches are great, right? How about 4?

why push a vote away from Scien?

Cuz he didn't want to hammer early?

Have to answer for JasonT?

He doesn't do a whole lot of answering and we're 3 minutes away from Scien self-hammering, so yes.

Looks like unless d3x changes his mind or skruffs shows up that it will be curtains for Scien.

So it's okay to answer for someone if you don't think they'll answer? Sounds an awful lot like coaching to me.

Sorry for that quintuple quote, but that's just how Monkey rolls. A nice throwaway coaching line there to implicate me as well. I realize I'll get some flak for my actions here, Amished and I think d3x have already questions them, but I still think my decision was defensible. Anyway, Monkey is now up to 4 possible Day 2 targets. Considering that there are only 9 players left for Monkey to accuse, you might think he'd stop there....wrong again! He's going for a majority with this ludicrous question:

While we still have twilight left, and assuming that Scien flips Town, what are your thoughts/reactions, Amished?

If you're assuming Scien flips town, why did you vote for him?

This isn't an outright accusation, but it was just plain inane. Maybe you had to be there. Go back and read the discussion and tell me what you think about Monkey's question. Anyway, not satisfied with a simple majority, Monkey goes for the two thirds impeachment vote and starts questioning his closest ally (Amished).

Isn't it a bit suspicious to claim self protecting doc? I mean, its a sure way to avoid being targeted at night. Self protecting doc's are pretty rare, in my experience.

Real nice. A guy goes and basically declares you a confirmed townie and you start calling him suspicious. This isn't the scummiest move ever but I just wanted to get it up to two thirds. In fact, none of the 4,5,6 accusations/questions are particularly scummy although I do find 4 (me) and 5 (d3x) to be quite ridiculous.

That's all I got on Monkey for now. If you need any more convincing, and I'm sure you will Amished, talk to cruelty or d3x about how blatantly Monkey ignores their questions. I also look forward to Monkey's 85% condemning info. I am 85% excited.

And now for some very quick other thoughts. Did Raivann strike any of you as a masterful scum? How about not mentally challenged? Me neither. Well, just kidding, but if I am wrong about Monkey I would not be surprised if Raivann actually listed his scum buddies as his probTown (China, Fuzzy). Fuzzy would deserve the most scrutiny due to Raivann's extremely early town read on him and Fuzzy's general lack of posts.

[Dizzle]

Oh yeah!! This is pretty minor and full of WIFOM but Fuzzy did say this:

Rai has unfortuantely said that he isn't having fun. As per the last rule, we're waiting for a modkill.

If Fuzzy = town, I guess it's unfortunate that the top suspect and scummiest acting player is dead before we could get any more information...but not really.

If Fuzzy = scum, he either truly believes that it is unfortunate that his scum buddy is dead. Or Fuzzy wants us to believe that he didn't know Raivann's alignment and thus would be upset that a player had modkilled himself.

Again, this practically useless but I'm in a posting mood.

[d3x]

I agreed with you. I wouldn't call it a knee jerk reaction.

This makes no sense. Let's put them back to back.

d3x - "Why would it be a problem to ask this question of Amished?"
MM - "I agreed with you."

d3x - "Allow me to rephrase, why did you have a negative kneejerk reaction to my asking Amished about the lynch?"
MM - "I wouldn't call it a knee jerk reaction.''

Is that what you're trying to say, MM? I'm not wanting to put words into your mouth, but damn if I can figure out what and why you're trying to say here. I'm not asking whether or not you agree, I'm asking you why you reacted negatively to my questioning of Amished. Please answer this.

Also, time for the followup questions I promised earlier.

I'm not avoiding your questions.

Then what were you doing? Are you saying that you never knew what my questions were {as suggested in p697}? If so, why didn't you follow the posts I provided? You said in p703 that you read my posts but couldn't figure out the questions. p614 was 3 lines long. The first was my question. The second was my HoS. The third was my declaration of intent to Vote you. How could you not "tell exactly what the question is"? <= Serious question. I want to understand where the disconnect is coming from so as to not repeat it as often.

Moving on, you accuse me of wanting everything to move on my timetable. That is itself ludicrous. If I hadn't hounded you to answer, when would you have gotten around to responding to my question {which I still don't believe you've done}? I would also like to know what you think my 'abrasive manner' is. If you could point out instances, that'd be great.

Also, have you finished researching yet?

--------------------------

Amished- p707 is right on the nose. That is what he has failed to answer.

Also, I knew I was missing something from you, but couldn't remember what or where. I just tracked it down.

Also, you were around during that initial MMan/Manz debate. Did/do you think that MMan was town *just based on that fight*?

If you go back, I think I was one of the only players to not say that he thought it was TvT in any way. My questions and contributions were actually markedly slanted towards Manz's side {particularly in p54 where I felt something was not quite right}, but I dropped it pretty much as soon as Raivann came in with his ridiculous comment on the fight {see p80 and p81}.

[Dizzle]

p627: Dizzle, I have to disagree with you here. It was not important you answer for Jason there. At first I thought you were just butting in, but are you suggesting that you answered the question before Jason did that it was important for you to do so?

Important was probably a poor choice of words. However, with the deadline approaching I saw no reason for them to hound Jason over a pretty self-explanatory vote. Scien was minutes away from self-hammering, there was really no danger of anyone switching over to vote Monkey or of Skruffs magically appearing and voting Monkey.

[d3x]

Amished - Are you still reserving judgement on MM until he has made his claim {or more to the point, given us the knowledge he claims to have}?

[cruelty]

Hey guys.

I've been really busy today and unable to post (and probably will be tomorrow as well) but I have quickly read through the thread.


Just a couple thoughts (not referencing posts/quoting, don't have time, it's late and I have to goto bed):

Amished, I recall you said at the end of day 1 that you didn't expect anyone else (other than fuzzy, apparently) to make a town -> scum list. I read that as coaching (I don't expect, as a teacher might say to his/her students, not an actual expectation).

You also said that the reason you made your list was because you expected to die at night; you obviously didn't expect to die at all. Makes that statement a little redundant. I don't understand the point of it, other than to reinforce your point that you didn't want anyone else to make a town -> scum list.


Monkey the more I read your posts the more I'm convinced you're being deliberately obtuse. You refuse to answer questions even when pressured, you obviously don't go back and read the posts cited to you... I don't really understand the need for you to be so closed off, unless you're genuinely concerned about making a scumslip. I suppose I could be tunneled on you but you're doing yourself no favours with continued anti-town behaviour.

To qualify that statement, I think that refusing to answer direct questions is anti-town. I think that ignoring posts directed at you (except for select portions of said posts which you answer with a sentence or two at most) is anti-town, and I find that your disbelief at being a) questioned and b) thought of as scummy is a) fake and b) damning.

vote: MM

ps: I really, really, REALLY don't like that you claim to have condemning info, but haven't shared it yet. There's no reason not to; if you're a power role and you can uncover scum at the cost of your life then do so. Just so we're clear though, that isn't rolefishing. I want the information that you claim to have, which will expose the power role that you've implied you are.

[Amished]

@Dizzle: 718 has been the best attack of MMan that I've seen yet; and it has me doubting myself. However, I want to see this claim since that'll most likely be a large point of reference and a way to help prove his alignment one way or another.

@China: Most of your points are weaker than a toothpick trying to hold up a barn. It's posts like that that made me think that MMan is town. Seriously, go through; I can pretty much show how a good 60% are utterly ridiculous attacks; or just IIoA and not contributing to the game.

@cruelty: I have a bit more here, so I'm breaking it up into paragraphs.

1) Under any normal circumstances, a town to scum list is anti-town at best. However, I did it as more of a full town manipulation, and I didn't want interference on it (fuzzy did gain scumpoints for posting it though). This will also tie into the "die at night" lie.

Let me explain the full scenario:
In the majority of my games that I play like this, I die N1 because the scum have felt that it's extremely hard for them to get me mislynched (almost a confirmed townie) and it'd be even harder for them to shake me off if/when I get on their tail. I can be an extremely dangerous townie; so I would have expected to die *without my role*

However, with my role, I wanted to manipulate the scum into targeting me because I knew I could stop a kill, but only if I guessed right. So for me to stop a mafia kill I needed to make sure I knew the biggest threat. That's the main reason I played D1 the way I did; hounding everyone about everything looking for inconsistencies. I had to make myself look like the biggest threat I could; so defending another player so hardcore (which pure odds say is pro-town) while also ending up pushing my other suspect to a lynch makes me look more ominous than anybody as the full MMan wagon was more of a group effort. (I fully thought Scien was scum to push him that hard, obviously; and his flip surprised me).

So in making myself a threat I could try to force the scum into thinking that I'm the best NK for that night. I knew I could prevent the kill, and if there were any watchers out there, I'd be an obvious target. If there were any cops, I could protect them by proxy. Any other power role I could protect them by proxy. It was the best play to protect the rest of the town in my eyes.

If people started posting lists saying that I was on the scummy half for my defense of MMan or whatever other reason, I would look like *much less of a threat, and more of a mislynch possibility*.

I think by now we have a majority wanting MMan's full claim.

@cruel: 1 last thing: Is anti-town always scum? If you're town, do you expect to be under suspicion if you feel you're trying hard?