[OLD] Open Setup Discussion and Nominations

[Kelly Chen]

I also guess that the godfather could counterclaim as well.

I actually think it probably subtracts something, compared to the current newbie setup, that there is no power role that the scum can claim and perhaps

not

get counterclaimed. It gives a better taste of closed setups (what most games are) if scum fake claims are not necessarily acts of desperation...

I'm a bit put off also by the halved (or worse due to false confirms) value of the cop. It makes me wonder if his role ability is as valuable as the mere ability to claim a role that is guaranteed to be in the setup.

[Trojan Horse]

Okay, this talk about the Godfather C9 setup has gotten me thinking about Simenon's setup again. As a reminder:

Nominate Simenon c9 2

1 mafia recruiter who can recruit one player once at the beginning of the game.
1 cop
1 doctor
4 townies.

If the mafia recruiter recruits a townie, the townie becomes a mafia rber.

The complaint was that the setup would turn out to be a Pie C9 a full 2/3 of the time. I thought that we could spice things up by adding in a second role that a recruited townie might become... and I think we've just found that second role. How about this:

Simtar C9

1 mafia recruiter who can recruit one player once at the beginning of the game.
1 cop (sane)
1 doctor
4 townies.

If the mafia recruiter recruits a townie, the townie becomes a mafia rber or a mafia godfather (50% chance of either). A mafia rber can kill and block in the same night.



How's that? Or am I just beating a dead horse here?

[Kelly Chen]

So Simtar (?) is in effect:

1/6 mafia cop, goon, doctor, 4 townies
1/6 mafia doc, goon, cop, 4 townies
1/3 godfather, goon, cop, doctor, 3 townies
1/3 mafia RB, goon, cop, doctor, 3 townies

Meh. The gimmick doesn't appear often enough for me to like it. I'd rather take out the bit about choosing your partner and just randomly say the cop or doc may be scum (something like 1/3 1/3 1/3). I also think the whole idea may be more interesting in a larger setup...

[Trojan Horse]

So Simtar (?) is in effect:

If you're confused about the name: since Tarhalindur proposed the Godfather C9 setup, I took the first parts of his name and Simenon's. Sorry about the confusion.

I also think the whole idea may be more interesting in a larger setup...

Probably right about that.

[yellowbounder]

Nanodethy Mafia

6 Cops (2 sane, 3 paranoid/naive, 1 insane)
3 Millers
1 One-shot NK Vig
4 Scum

Paranoid/Naive cop sanity chosen randomly.

[Simenon]

The OS vig is way too clunky.

[Trojan Horse]

Grr. You just had to suggest a larger setup, Kelly. You just had to get me thinking about it.

Alright, if for no other reason than to make it easier for me to get to sleep tonight, here are my preliminary thoughts on expanding Simenon's setup. If it works, great; if not, I'll scrap it.

Here's the probable framework for a 12-player setup:

1 mafia recruiter
4 protown power roles, of various types
7 vanilla townies

Recruiter recruits two players during night 0, and cannot recruit thereafter. No other actions are taken night 0. If a vanilla townie is recruited, he becomes either Mafia Power Role X or Mafia Power Role Y, with a 50-50 chance for each. (If both recruits are vanilla, then one will become X and one will become Y.) That's it.

Why exactly 4 protown power roles? That is the minimum needed for the odds to be in FAVOR of some power role being recruited. Also, if both recruits are power roles, we will end up with something similar to this iconic setup, which is almost certainly balanced. Note: we could make it 5 power roles, as long as they are not too strong. It all depends on what roles are chosen.

So, it all comes down to choosing the right protown and proscum power roles. And that may be tricky. One thing that needs to be considered: what benefits might the mafia get by having a recruited power role? Mafia cops and mafia docs are nearly useless (so it wasn't a consideration in Simenon's game). But a recruited tracker or roleblocker could be very useful to the mafia. And a recruited vig? The mafia could go on a shooting spree.

One thought I had: perhaps if a power role is recruited, he becomes a plain mafia. But that idea has problems as well; it would be tough for a recruited tracker or roleblocker to masquerade as a protown power role, when his ability no longer works. We're probably better off letting recruits retain their abilities, and just balancing the game accordingly.

So, what roles should be used? Better question: is this an idea worth looking into, or should I just forget it?

I'll sleep on it.

[Kelly Chen]

Although the cop and doc abilities aren't useful, the mafia possessing them denies them to the town; also, if the mafia gets these roles they can do things to try to make that player look more confirmed, such as feeding the town a guilty result, or skipping a kill and suggesting the doc stopped it.

A roleblocker could technically be useful but it could also be damning if the town noticed the blocker in action. A cop who doesn't get results could very well claim and complain.

Recruited vig is a problem; I'd guess in that scenario he should be one-shot.

I don't much like the idea of nerfing recruited power roles, but I don't think that would be a huge problem either. A vig or a roleblocker would be cramped into either not claiming a power role, or claiming they never felt justified in risking the use of their power. It would be pretty difficult to maintain a tracker claim; I guess scum would choose not to claim that role.

For other roles you could have watcher (as useful to scum as a tracker; probably still hard to fake) or governor (would need to be limited in scum hands; not impossible to fake)...

[YogurtBandit]

Nominate Yogurt

3 Mafia that cant talk
2 masons that Can
1 RB
6 Vanilla

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Nominate Newbie V.2

2 Cops
2 Doctors
2 Mafia
1 Townie

[YogurtBandit]

Nominate Newbie V.2

2 Cops
2 Doctors
2 Mafia
1 Townie

That would destroy the Mafia unless its Mafia Head start

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

That's not the point Yogurt.

[Guardian]

Townie = confirmed

[Trojan Horse]

Oh yeah? Well, I counterclaim townie! Howzabout that, huh?

[xyzzy]

SK Mafia

3 SKs
2 Mafia
0-1-2 Doc
5-7 Townies

The SKs don't know who each other are, but collectively they have one kill per night. If a majority of them agree on who to kill, then that person will die, otherwise, a random target is picked from the three chosen by them.

If you don't agree that this is awesome, then you fail.

[Guardian]

Oh yeah? Well, I counterclaim townie! Howzabout that, huh?

Ok, so is your partner going to leave two confirmed docs, or two confirmed cops?

[Kelly Chen]

I whipped up a sim that does one scum group and has settings like this: Lyncher y/n, Vengeful-style godfather y/n, town has to lynch lyncher even if scum are dead y/n, town wins a final two of lyncher and target y/n, and scum NKs y/n.

I'm a little torn between two setups; one is a third of a day longer (on average) but tilts the game towards the lyncher at town's expense. I'll suggest both:

Crush A

1 mafia godfather (vengeful-style)
1 mafia goon
1 lyncher (who is informed of his target)
4 townies (one of whom is unknowingly the lyncher's target)
day start. mafia can kill at night.

If the target is lynched, the game is over and the lyncher wins.
If the godfather is lynched, the goon dies with him.
If both mafia are dead following a lynch, the town wins. If the lyncher and target are both still alive, then the lyncher loses. (It follows from this that a lyncher-target final 2 is not a draw in this game.)
If the target is nightkilled, the lyncher (if still alive) turns into a townie.
The target only shows up as "townie" when nightkilled, not "target."

Stats assuming random moves:
Number of days: 1.925 average
Town wins: 35.6%
Mafia wins: 43.3%
Lyncher wins: 21.1% (plus 5.1% wins as a townie)

Crush B

Same as Crush A, except the elimination of the mafia isn't game over. If the lyncher and target are both still alive, the town must try to lynch the lyncher. However, the situation of a final 2 with the lyncher and the target is still a town win, not a draw.

Stats assuming random moves:
Number of days: 2.267 average
Town wins: 27.0%
Mafia wins: 43.3%
Lyncher wins: 29.7% (plus 5.1% wins as a townie)

If the lyncher-target final 2 scenario is considered a draw, this lowers town's win odds to 23.0%. It also means a lyncher-target-mafia final 3 scenario doesn't permit a town victory.


Ok, commentary: I call it "Crush" because the info the town can gain stems largely from two players' uncompromisable stances towards another player. The goon

cannot

let the godfather get lynched. The lyncher

must

get the target lynched (or nightkilled, if town goes on to win). They have strange crushes on each other.

Additionally, in Crush A, the lyncher doesn't want the godfather lynched while the target is still alive. Although the lyncher doesn't know who the godfather is, this motivation of the lyncher might help to make him more detectable.

Thoughts?

[Kelly Chen]

Oh, also:

Crush Nightless 6p

1 mafia godfather (vengeful-style)
1 mafia goon
1 lyncher (who is informed of his target)
3 townies (one of whom is unknowingly the lyncher's target)
Nightless.

If the target is lynched, the game is over and the lyncher wins.
If the godfather is lynched, the goon dies with him.
Death of all mafia isn't game over; town still tries to lynch the lyncher.
But a final 2 situation of lyncher+target is a town win.

Stats assuming random moves:
Number of days: 2.384 average
Town wins: 27.2%
Mafia wins: 30.0%
Lyncher wins: 42.8%

If mafia elimination is an instant town win then days are 1.984, town odds are 38.8%, and lyncher odds are 31.1%. I am wary of this since it doesn't seem like town should have the highest odds of winning given random moves. Although 42.8% lyncher odds are pretty high...

[Guardian]

Nominate: Crush A

I like games where the town has a 30-40 shot of winning, they should be able to balance that to 50 percent on good play. I don't really mind that the lyncher only has a 25% shot of winning it should be harder for him since he is one player, the town is 4. Very interesting setup .

[Guardian]

Troj, I want to hear more on the 12 player setup, specifics and such.

Also, people, thoughts on Pooky's Newbie v2? I think it may have been intended as a joke, but it might be interesting to play .

[Trojan Horse]

Okay then, Guardian. Let me give you my first attempt.

First of all, I'm now starting to think that having 5 protown power roles is the way to go, instead of 4. I was using the basic 12 player setup (cop, doc, 7 townies, 3 mafs) as a standard for what happens when 2 power roles are recruited. The problem with that is that it doesn't take into account whatever benefits the mafia get from the recruited power roles. Adding an extra power role should take care of that.

Having said that, let's see what I can do in my first try:

Quick Recruit Mini (Version 1)

1 mafia recruiter (recruits two players night zero, then acts as a mafia goon thereafter)
1 cop (sane)
1 doctor
1 tracker
1 roleblocker
1 one-shot bulletproof vest (survives first nightkill attempt)
6 vanilla townies

No actions are taken night zero except for the recruitings.

If a roleblocker is recruited, he loses his ability, and becomes a plain mafia goon. If any other protown power role is recruited, he retains his ability.

If a vanilla townie is recruited, he becomes either a mafia rber or a mafia spy (50-50 chance). A mafia spy may investigate someone at night and find out that person's role. If both recruits are vanilla townies, one will become a mafia rber, and one will become a mafia spy.

Any mafia with other night abilities may kill and use his other ability in the same night. If such a mafia (taking two actions) is tracked, the tracker only receives the mafia's kill target.

There you have it. A couple of things that bother me right now: it's an extra bit of complexity to have a recruited roleblocker get "nerfed", but to have other power roles NOT get nerfed. Why did I set it up that way? It's not that I think a recruited roleblocker would help the mafia too much (Kelly allayed my fears on that). I just don't want to see the mafia end up with TWO roleblockers, the other one coming from a recruited townie.

The other thing that bothers me; the one-shot NK immune isn't the most exciting choice for a power role. I'm not really sure what role would be better, though. One-shot vig? Governor? I don't really want a rolecop or a watcher; we have enough info roles already. I'll have to give that one some more thought.

[Trojan Horse]

Oh yeah? Well, I counterclaim townie! Howzabout that, huh?

Ok, so is your partner going to leave two confirmed docs, or two confirmed cops?

You win.

[Guardian]

One thought before dinner - maybe if RB is recruited, a vanilla becomes a spy automatically?

This is interesting, I shall ponder it .

[xyzzy]

Also nominate: Crusher A

Oh, and Pooky's setup could possibly work if you add the following:

2 docs target the same person: they turn into one quack.
2 cops protect the same person: they both get wrong results.
1 doc and 1 cop target same person: no results are returned, but that player becomes a death miller.

That's even more chaotic, but it'd be crazy cool fun to play.

[Trojan Horse]

Now that I've had a chance to look at Kelly's latest setups...

Nominate: Crush A

Out of the three Crush setups, it has the best balance of the win percentages, IMO.