Open 680.1 C9++ | Endgame

[ThinkBig]

VC 1.18

Green Crayons

(4): Titus, Narna, Alchemist21, CommKnight

CommKnight

(4): RoryMK, FireScreamer, Brian Skies, shannon

Titus

(2): davesaz, Umlaut

Alchemist21

(1): Green Crayons

FireScreamer

(1): FrankJaeger

Not Voting

(1): Gamma Emerald

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-05-03 20:06:48)

[Brian Skies]

It's too early to lynch and I think we've gotten what we can out of this wagon. The premature claim is also making me think CK really is just like this, so I probably have to meta-dive him at some point for comparison.

So, your read has changed just because he claimed VT...or what?

Why do you think it's too early to lynch?

[Umlaut]

We have more than half the day left.

It's not the claiming VT, it's the claiming at L-2 that is sounding lynchbait alarms for me. Scum can be lynchbait too but I want to think about it more, and meanwhile there are other things worth pursuing today too.

[Titus]

We have more than half the day left.

It's not the claiming VT, it's the claiming at L-2 that is sounding lynchbait alarms for me. Scum can be lynchbait too but I want to think about it more, and meanwhile there are other things worth pursuing today too.

Lynchbait really?

Thoughts on Dave?

[Titus]

Brian, we still have like 4 vanity wagons. That bugs me.

[Brian Skies]

Half the day left? If you think you found scum, you lynch it. Why screw around for half a day and risk getting a shitty deadline scramble lynch?

You don't think scum can do that? Did you not really believe in the points you argued against him before? How am I supposed to feel about you just bailing at the first sight of a non-PR claim and not just think you're PR-shopping now?

[Brian Skies]

Brian, we still have like 4 vanity wagons. That bugs me.

I guess. But since when do we not have vanity wagons? And some of the other players are just not around.

I know you prefer Shannon or Green Crayons, but no one's going to care about those wagons if they don't have a reason to support it. Why do you like the Green Crayons wagon?

[Umlaut]

I honestly haven't thought about Dave in a while. Skimming his ISO, I don't see anything I could scumread him for that I didn't incorrectly scumread him for last roll. I agree with him on 138, 250, 370, and while I obviously don't agree with 144 I don't find anything AI about it. The questions he's asked so far seem townish. Some of the reads from his list are a little surprising, namely:

@Dave

Why is Gamma your top townread?

pedit

Half the day left? If you think you found scum, you lynch it. Why screw around for half a day and risk getting a shitty deadline scramble lynch?

I can vote CommKnight whenever I want. Everyone else can vote CommKnight whenever they want. There is no barrier to lynching CommKnight if that's what we decide. I'm not going to rush a decision when there's no call for it.

You don't think scum can do that? Did you not really believe in the points you argued against him before? How am I supposed to feel about you just bailing at the first sight of a non-PR claim and not just think you're PR-shopping now?

Feel whatever you feel about it, don't ask me.

[Brian Skies]

Feel whatever you feel about it, don't ask me.

I just want to confirm with you whether the main reason you've lost your fervor for a CommKnight lynch is his claim.

[Umlaut]

I mean, claiming prematurely was part of it, no one

should

do it but I think it's usually town who actually

do.

I was pretty clear before, more clear than I think I probably should have been, that I wanted "more pressure on CommKnight." (I say more clear than I should have been because in my opinion votes that admit they're for pressure are no pressure at all, but that's not the point.) I wanted to see how he would react when it looked like he was the likely lynch. His reaction seems to be telling us we all suck at Mafia and giving us his reads. It's not the best possible response and it's not the towniest possible response, but it gives me pause.

What did

you

make of that post, since you think I got the wrong thing out of it?

[Brian Skies]

I read a lot of AtE and a premature claim. Maybe he's town, maybe he's scum trying to diffuse his own wagon. At the very least I know he's not a PR and probably a safer lynch than anything else that's going to be pushed today.

[Umlaut]

I feel like there's a difference between what you're saying here:

Half the day left? If you think you found scum, you lynch it.

and what you're saying here:

Maybe he's town, maybe he's scum trying to diffuse his own wagon. At the very least I know he's not a PR and probably a safer lynch than anything else that's going to be pushed today.

How confident are you that CommKnight is scum?

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: RoryMK
Talk

[Brian Skies]

Let's put it this way. He's still voting (or cross-voting) his townread just to push him to claim, with the unreasonable expectation that people will unvote if the claim is 'believable.' This is a semi-open setup. What claim isn't going to be believable as the first claim of the game? And claims don't make alignment anyway (unless it's a mason).

But maybe I just have unrealistic expectations of what town play should be and should just expect everyone to be a clown.

Also, if I didn't think he would flip scum, I wouldn't be advocating for his lynch. But your whole attitude about this does make me reconsider.

[Titus]

Brian, we still have like 4 vanity wagons. That bugs me.

I guess. But since when do we not have vanity wagons? And some of the other players are just not around.

I know you prefer Shannon or Green Crayons, but no one's going to care about those wagons if they don't have a reason to support it. Why do you like the Green Crayons wagon?

Gut. Wagon analysis. But the latter is waining.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Rory

[Gamma Emerald]

Hey Shannon can we chat?

[shannon]

We have more than half the day left.

It's not the claiming VT, it's the claiming at L-2 that is sounding lynchbait alarms for me. Scum can be lynchbait too but I want to think about it more, and meanwhile there are other things worth pursuing today too.

If this is how it works, I'm adding claiming at L-2 to my Book of Scum Strategies. Sorta feels like you want this wagon to go away? I think we can do worse than lynch a VT, FWIW.

[shannon]

Hey Shannon can we chat?

Sure, let's hope I can keep up with you

[shannon]

I feel like there's a difference between what you're saying here:

Half the day left? If you think you found scum, you lynch it.

and what you're saying here:

Maybe he's town, maybe he's scum trying to diffuse his own wagon. At the very least I know he's not a PR and probably a safer lynch than anything else that's going to be pushed today.

How confident are you that CommKnight is scum?

FWIW I am getting more confident in his being scum, the more you try to derail the wagon at L-2. Frankly if someone claims VT Day 1 and we don't have any other outstandingly scummy option, I reckon we lynch the VT.

[shannon]

I have a serious question. Where the hell did all of ya'll get your previous experience playing mafia from? It's like playing the game with guppies who think they're a shark.

I am but a humble otter, looking for other town otters with which to hold hands and float about the ocean

[Gamma Emerald]

What is your opinion on the GC/Alchemist issue?
BTW feel free to ask me questions as well.

[shannon]

What is your opinion on the GC/Alchemist issue?
BTW feel free to ask me questions as well.

I am finding it very hard to keep track of what's actually gone on there. Let me go back and re-read the original posts (not all the pages of stuff that's come afterward) so I can give you a proper answer.

[shannon]

I have just skimmed a million pages and come to a conclusion I wasn't expecting.

GC is suspicious of me in 132
Titus votes me in 151
Fire asks whether he can ask her why, or does she just want to engage me herself in 152
In 153 and 154 GC accuses Titus of jumping in front of his vote on me

From 164 on, GC asks me about my vote change from one faux-mason to another, following up on *his* suspicions of me.
In 229, Alchemist asks me further about my vote change on the mason issue.
I respond in 240, Alchemist votes me in 243
we go back and forth a bit
Alchemist unvotes me in 288

In 342, GC asks Titus again about her vote on me
GC asks follow ups in 357
Titus says GC is scum for whining in 390

Three quick votes on GC - 402, 403, 404 (for unrelated stuff - complaining about someone complaining about trust tells)
410 Alchemist could support the GC wagon but wants to stay on Rory

Gamma brings up the Titus voting me issue again in 412 (he has been ISOing GC?) and asks for an explanation.
GC responds in 421

Alchemist gets involved, says it doesn't look like GC was expressing suspicion in 132. (See 425).
GC responds in 519
Alchemist 532 'You didn't call (titus) out for lack of reasoning, but for voting before you did'

The rest I am calling 'blah blah blah'.

So now I know why I was confused: The issue is between GC and Alchemist, but it was started by Gamma in 412, some 300-odd posts after the initial issue.

Here's what I think currently:

- I still don't know why Titus voted me (and I don't think she followed up with me after she voted me, which is bad).
- I don't get how GC is in trouble here, when it's Titus who dodged that question (of why she voted me) and GC made attempts to follow it up, while Titus lurked.
- I don't get why Gamma waited 300 posts to bring it up
- If there was an issue at the time, why was it not discussed when GC and Alchemist were both asking me about my vote change between faux masons in the 150s, 160s, and 200s?

Theory: The three quick votes on GC (402, 403, 404) regarding the 'trust tell' issue are what sparked the whole thing. ScumGamma has gone looking for an angle that will allow him to vote GC while the wagon is hot. ScumAlchemist is doing the same. He didn't

need

to do it back when GC was trying to engage with Titus originally, because at that point, it looked like

I

could be a viable mislynch (GC, Titus, Alchemist, possibly more...) and that was a better play for him until he realised my wagon was going nowhere.

Not sure whether to vote Gamma, Alchemist, or Titus. But I'm not voting GC.

[shannon]

UNVOTE: because Comm is not as bad as this other lot