Mini 815 - Lazy Neighborhood Mafia (Game Over)

[Iecerint]

I agree with your summary, except that I don't think this is a lie:

I was the one who contacted him. He hadn't contacted me.

In my English, "hadn't" is pluperfect tense and means "not prior to the time period under discussion." In other words, the second sentence is just clarifying that SSK was the one who initiated the conversation. This is consistent with falko's version of events. I think it's parsimonious to assume that SSK meant it this way because otherwise it would conflict with his own already-stated version of events. It's true that some English speakers don't use pluperfect tense in the standard way; I'm guessing that this may be the case with you, halflight. By contrast, if SSK had typed "He hasn't contacted me," then he would certainly have lied.

In my view, the sketchy thing about SSK is what falko noted -- rather than read his correspondence with falko and try to help the town understand what was going on, he went along with Sajin. It's possible that Sajin is scum who noticed falko's disadvantage and decided to capitalize on it, but I think it's just as likely that either the truly damning evidence against falko is yet to come or that Sajin misinterpreted a bit. I also want to hear from the Sir/Zeik/ZONE trifecta before we tunnel too much.

[halflight007]

Mmm. It's been years since I've had grammar lessons. Still, couldn't "hadn't" here refer to the fact that the period where we could communicate had passed? If he'd posted "hasn't", then wouldn't it indicate that we could still communicate outside the thread, which isn't the case?

I agree with you on wanting more info, which is why I have not threatened anyone with an FoS or a vote yet. We don't have enough information, or people posting. To do these things right now seems anti-town to me, especially since it seems we have a lurker or two.

[Iecerint]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluperfect_tense

The pluperfect action occurs prior to the past action. The past action is SSK contacting falko. The (hypothetical) pluperfect action is falko contacting SSK. The pluperfect action is negated. Therefore, the two sentences mean that falko did not contact SSK prior to SSK contacting falko; in other words, SSK contacted falko first. As I understand it, "hasn't" would mean that falko had never at any point up to the present contacted SSK, which would hypothetically be a lie as we have explicit evidence to the contrary in the form of PMs from falko.

This has gotten a little esoteric; for that matter, people use pluperfect tense non-standardly all the time. However, since assuming that SSK used it standardly makes the most sense in the context of what he and others have already said, I think it's reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt there.

[halflight007]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluperfect_tense

The pluperfect action occurs prior to the past action. The past action is SSK contacting falko. The (hypothetical) pluperfect action is falko contacting SSK. The pluperfect action is negated. Therefore, the two sentences mean that falko did not contact SSK prior to SSK contacting falko; in other words, SSK contacted falko first. As I understand it, "hasn't" would mean that falko had never at any point up to the present contacted SSK, which would hypothetically be a lie as we have explicit evidence to the contrary in the form of PMs from falko.

This has gotten a little esoteric; for that matter, people use pluperfect tense non-standardly all the time. However, since assuming that SSK used it standardly makes the most sense in the context of what he and others have already said, I think it's reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt there.

Oooooh.

Still, yeah, agreed. I want to see MafiaSSK's response. Whether or not this is a matter of simple semantics remains to be seen.

[ZeikHunter]

Anyway, I might have voted for ZONEACE because my neightbor wanted to, but he is also my neighbor (although he didn't say anything to me), so I wouldn't want to hurt feelings.

To clarify, you're saying that Sir asked you to vote for ZONEACE with him during Night 0?

Uh, no. Y'see, Sir voted for ZONEACE somewhat earlier, and being my neighbor, I might have followed suit. But since ZONEACE is also my neighbor, it throws a wrench in it. And the vote for falco has good meat behind it.

[Iecerint]

Oh. I see. I thought there was something more exciting than that.

What do you think about Sajin and SSK?

[ZeikHunter]

@ZONEACE:

Why didn't you contact me about being neighbors?

Why didn't you contact me?

Because I didn't know it was allowed, despite my reading of the topic. Really, I got Sir's conversation PM at the same time as my role PM. I didn't have much time to type YOU anything once I found out the conversation rule since the game started already. Sorry, neighbor.

[Sajin]

In all honesty MafiaSSk's response is likely to be that his PM was pregame conversation. I would not have considered that PM to be part of the game. Falco obviously did not either.

My logic shows that Falco was likely talking to scum/mafia (that does not mean MafiaSSK, about half the people posting on this issue are confused about this).

I am willing to say that I think MafiaSSK is town in this situation. Falco assertains that my alignment is the same as MafiaSSKs. I agree that is fairly likely.

I also think because of the amount of defense posted on Falco's behalf that icerint is more likely than not the same alignment as Falco's. Would you agree Icerint?

@Siro- Why did you tell another player to vote for a certain other player?

@Killa- You just now picked up my PM, care to comment on it?

[ZeikHunter]

Oh. I see. I thought there was something more exciting than that.

What do you think about Sajin and SSK?

Was that directed at me? If so...

Sajin: This guy is a genius. No, really. He's a mofo at logic, which gets him pretty high in my book. If he isn't town, then may lightning strike me dead where I sit.

SSK: The other one of Sajin's neighbors. Since falko is already being suspected and there's almost indisputable proof of it, I'm going to say SSK is town. I wouldn't mind being his neightbor either.

If this wasn't for me, well, you have my opinions.

[Tarballs]

1st Vote Count of Day 1

3 - falcomagno

(Sajin, MafiaSSK, ZeikHunter)

1 - Y

(ZONEACE)

1 - ZONEACE

(Sironigous)

1 - Timeater

(Iecerint*)

1 - MafiaSSK

(AshMC1984)

5 - Not Voting

(halflight007, falkomagno, Timeater, killa seven, Y)

* Iecerint's vote for MafiaSSK does not count, since he didn't unvote first.


With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

Deadline: July 30th, 2009

[Iecerint]

My apologies.

unvote, Vote: MafiaSSK

@ Zeik -- SSK is *falko's* other neighbor, not Sajin's other neighbor. I would share your feelings about Sajin if SSK were Sajin's neighbor.

@ Sajin -- If you read Zeik's recent post, I think it becomes clear that Sir didn't actually ask anyone to vote for ZONEACE. Zeik just used some ambiguous language before to imply as much. What he meant was that his "neighbor" had already voted for (his other neighbor) ZONEACE.

I am still not satisfied with your case against falko, and I will not be satisfied until you show the town whichever of the unseen PMs you think incriminates him. I don't think the town has seen evidence that you knew he was talking to scum during Night 0. If you post said PM as halflight, Y, and I have suggested, we will be in a better position to judge falko/Sajin/SSK.

The only information I have about falko's alignment is what I've heard from you and falko. At present, it seems that you're saying an unseen PM will really nail falko good or whatever, but you won't show us the PM. I don't have to be the same alignment as falko to find that suspect. Granted, the fact that falko won't show it either may imply that there's actually sensitive information in it.

[Iecerint]

Also, Sajin, I think you've contradicted yourself now:

1- Did I say it was directed to your scumbuddy? No it just made no sense to me. Stop putting words where words were not said.

My logic shows that Falco was likely talking to scum/mafia (that does not mean MafiaSSK, about half the people posting on this issue are confused about this).

[Sajin]

2 separate things Iec and evidently both were true. The particular point against falko that number 1 referred to and what number 2 referred to are not the same thing. Falko is defending both points with the other argument. 2 issues, both scummy.

Tell your likely scumpartner to post the messages. I know he doesn't want to.

[falkomagno]

Good morning¡¡

I just see Sajin running in circles , with bigger and bigger contradictions. Maybe we can go deeper here and get something.

Since I was the "accused", but I KNOW that sajin has not evidence at all that proves his SO MISTERIOUS WAY TO KNOW THAT I WAS TALKING WITH SOMEONE ELSE, I was pushing him to put my post in a way that he can support his indictment. Since evidently is this is not possible for him, I'm gonna post all my correspondence with sajin, in
rigorous chronological order:


From: Sajin
To: falkomagno
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:33 pm
Subject: yo

hello, are you scum in Tarballs mafia game?

If you had ad adjective to describe the attitude of your role what would it be?

From: Sajin
To: falkomagno
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:17 pm
Subject: Concerning tarballs mafia mini game

24 hours after you picked up my PM and no reply. Waiting on scumbuddies are we?

Actually, has been 21 hours.

Notice my response. It was Almost 5 hours later.

From: falkomagno
To: Sajin
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:50 pm
Subject: Re: Concerning tarballs mafia mini game

well..I'm not scum...what more can I say

From: falkomagno
To: Sajin
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:56 pm
Subject: Re: Concerning tarballs mafia mini game

not really. Waitingto the game to proper start I say. And you...what about you.

And plus, how can you contact me?? I tried contact my another neighbour and I could'n see how

From: Sajin
To: falkomagno
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:58 pm
Subject: Re: Concerning tarballs mafia mini game

The game has started properly. I am allowed to contact my neighbors.


I did a search for your name. Profile came up.

From: falkomagno
To: Sajin
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:12 pm
Subject: Re: Concerning tarballs mafia mini game

so...who are your top suspect so far??

From: Sajin
To: falkomagno
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:18 pm
Subject: Re: Concerning tarballs mafia mini game

My top suspect is you atm. Do you know why?

From: falkomagno
To: Sajin
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:57 am
Subject: Re: Concerning tarballs mafia mini game

No I don't..why?

You think that is an advantage or a disadvantage to be able to talk with the neighbour??

An that's it.

so, In my interpretation, I conclude:
1. There is no question that I didn't answer. But, in the other side,Sajin didn't answer my last post.
2. there is nothing in that correspondence that allows Sijin to thinks that I had contacted mi neighbour -by mistake, but contacted after all- before that the time that I ask him orientation to search profiles.

So. my point No. 2 is the issue that hasn't been properly answered by sijin. I can understand that, if Sajin would have licit ways to know my correspondence with SKK, and ignoring the confusion, he can build some suspicious case, and, after my explanation judge to believe me or not. But there is not licit ways, at least, towny ways to sijin to know that in advance. Sorry, but no.

I'm not casting my vote to sijin yet, because I really want to hear the SKK response about it, his explanation of why he chose to hide information to town.

[Sironigous]

BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, WE CANNOT TALK TO OUR NEIGHBORS DURING DAY...
see Tarball's first post...

---

@Siro- Why did you tell another player to vote for a certain other player?

...Er, I didn't.

Anyway, I might have voted for ZONEACE because my neightbor wanted to, but he is also my neighbor (although he didn't say anything to me), so I wouldn't want to hurt feelings.

To clarify, you're saying that Sir asked you to vote for ZONEACE with him during Night 0?

Uh, no.

Y'see, Sir voted for ZONEACE somewhat earlier, and being my neighbor, I might have followed suit. But since ZONEACE is also my neighbor, it throws a wrench in it. And the vote for falco has good meat behind it.

Tada!

I DID send messages to both my neighbors though; they were friendly greeting messages.

---

@Siro- Why did you tell another player to vote for a certain other player?

...Er, I didn't.

Anyway, I might have voted for ZONEACE because my neightbor wanted to, but he is also my neighbor (although he didn't say anything to me), so I wouldn't want to hurt feelings.

To clarify, you're saying that Sir asked you to vote for ZONEACE with him during Night 0?

Uh, no.

Y'see, Sir voted for ZONEACE somewhat earlier, and being my neighbor, I might have followed suit. But since ZONEACE is also my neighbor, it throws a wrench in it. And the vote for falco has good meat behind it.

So do people think I asked my neighbors to vote ZONE? o_o

I DID send messages to both my neighbors though; they were friendly greeting messages.

---

@Sir: What have you got against ZONE?

... um... nothing.

If you guys need anymore clarifications, ask away.

---

On Falko - so, I'm completely completely confused.

---

A little off topic...

Also- If I was scum, how would I have known you were talking to someone else anyways? Thats a nulltell.

...

Well, if we're playing the grammar game then this would admit you being scum... Isn't the subjunctive tense necessary for hypothetical situations? >.>

[halflight007]

From: Sajin
To: falkomagno
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:33 pm
Subject: yo

hello, are you scum in Tarballs mafia game?

If you had ad adjective to describe the attitude of your role what would it be?

Something about this PM feels...off to me. For one thing, it has a lot of errors that, from seeing Sajin's typing so far, I wouldn't expect him to make. For another, I can't see why Sajin would ask something like that, especially in a first text.

Sajin, if you could post your correspondence with Falko, it would really, really help clear things up for me. Because that above PM, from what I've seen of your grammar and spelling, does not sound like you. It might be. But I have to see what you wrote.

And to avoid tunneling:

Timeater hasn't shown up yet. Which isn't surprising, he might be doing something over the weekend - but why didn't he ask for a V/LA then? Why doesn't he post something, especially in response to my questions?

[Iecerint]

Sajin, if your correspondence conflicts with falko's, please post it. Otherwise, I don't see a PM that incriminates falko. The most suspicious thing is the weak rolefishing in your first message to him.

Sir, I think the confusion about Zeik/ZONE is based on this:

Anyway, I might have voted for ZONEACE because my neightbor wanted to, but he is also my neighbor (although he didn't say anything to me), so I wouldn't want to hurt feelings.

Zeik just meant that you had (random)voted for ZONEACE, but I read it as a Night 0 event. It took Zeik awhile to correct me, so some players had already latched onto this.

[MafiaSSK]

so...who are your top suspect so far??

That was the same question that I did to Sajin

And he didn't respond to you after that?[/quote]
No I did not.

From this, as I said before, just remains the bad taste of the behaviour of Mafia, reckless to let you know that I was confusing,

Why are MafiaSSK's actions in bad taste? From what it sounds like, MafiaSSK was having an "LOL" reaction at your mixup, and assumed that you hadn't read the thread yet.

@MafiaSSK:

Is what Falko said true? What is your side of the story?

Yes, his side is all true. There was nothing wrong with it. But I do agree with you on how all of the points above are not scummy.

[MafiaSSK]

I will agree with you and

Vote:Falko

I was the one who contacted him. He hadn't contacted me.

That is scum to me, since at this point he could say what he knows, being pro town, instead of being opportunistic, keep information and add to my BW.

At this point, I did not know that you could quote PMs.

[MafiaSSK]

I would like MafiaSSK to confirm the other message.

Confirm what message?

[MafiaSSK]

I highly recommend you to check the interpretation from Iecernt, he understand the hole situation atm. Summarizing, I'm not accusing SSK from any message between us, not his content or any other interpretation from that, but the fact that, once Sajin misteriously knows that I had a correspondence with SSK, and put me in suspicious, SSK instead of putting in public all the information about it, he just said:

I will agree with you and

Vote:Falko

I was the one who contacted him. He hadn't contacted me.

That is scum to me, since at this point he could say what he knows, being pro town, instead of being opportunistic, keep information and add to my BW.

I see now. Taking another look at the chart, I finally see where you're going.

MafiaSSk: Why did you lie about Falko contacting you?

From the exchange, it's very clear that Falko PMed you.

One of you might be lying. MafiaSSK, what do you have to say? Why did you lie in your vote post about Falko not contacting you?

By contacted, I meant that I had sent him a PM before he had sent me one.

[MafiaSSK]

I'd like all three player to quote all PMs with dates and times (Should be no problem, since they all have it in their inbox).

Falko's list should be identical to Sajin's and SSK's lists combined. Else, some one is lying. If any one of them don't want to do it - He has something to hide.

Clear cut - Either you all put all the cards on the table, or you are suspects.

FoS all of you until its done.

This is stupid but fine:

Why'd you in for it?

what do you mean?

I was confirming, that's all.

Why'd you in for this game?

oh forget about my last post...I was confusing mod...sorry

xD

so...who are your top suspect so far??

[MafiaSSK]

I will agree with you and

Vote:Falko

I was the one who contacted him. He hadn't contacted me.

That is scum to me, since at this point he could say what he knows, being pro town, instead of being opportunistic, keep information and add to my BW.

At this point, I did not know that you could quote PMs.

EBWOP: Because I was ignoring mod posts.

[MafiaSSK]

I'd like all three player to quote all PMs with dates and times (Should be no problem, since they all have it in their inbox).

Falko's list should be identical to Sajin's and SSK's lists combined. Else, some one is lying. If any one of them don't want to do it - He has something to hide.

Clear cut - Either you all put all the cards on the table, or you are suspects.

FoS all of you until its done.

This is stupid but fine:

Why'd you in for it?

what do you mean?

I was confirming, that's all.

Why'd you in for this game?

oh forget about my last post...I was confusing mod...sorry

xD

so...who are your top suspect so far??

I had not responded to the last PM because I had been with family and then went to sleep. So when I woke up the thread was open and I couldn't respond.

[MafiaSSK]

MafiaSSK, without a doubt, looks the most suspicious right now. He lied about his correspondence with Falko. And he has not yet resurfaced to answer.

I have a life. I can not respond immeadietly.