Newbie 999 - Game Over

[chesskid3]

I still don't get it, but ok.

[boberz]

1) @ Boberz: Either 4 or 5 people in this game have said no to the policy LaL, and while reasons may/may not be different for saying no, I think that the general consensus is that LaL is a bad idea because someone lying does not imply that they are necessarily scum [opinions differ on whether town should ever lie, I guess. I still think it depends on the situation]. Sure, it's suspicious, and they had better have a good reason for any lies, but it shouldn't be a policy lynch with no discussion.
Further, not agreeing to LaL does not imply that someone is going to lie (I think CommieX pointed this out above as well)

Everyone read and take note, I am not a LALer, I am not voting chess because he is not a LALer, but because he went further and tried to justify people lying as town. Then when I narrowed it down to a newbie game he still tried to justify it. This is actually quite a scummy move for chess I am not joking or stretching.

@ Boberz: I unvoted because I wasn't sure of internet access.

Maybe, maybe not. I suggest a proper wagon so we can find out.

I suppose my vote was a bit of an OMGUS, not sure why that means anything though.

Now I highly recommend a wagon. OMGUS is bad because it is a very reactive inward looking defensive action, which betrays somewhat of a scum mentality. It is by no means a strong tell but definately worth a wagon.

[chesskid3]

I'm beginning to wonder if you want to wagon me just to either try to get me quicklynched, or force a claim..doesn't seem a very pro-town thing to do, does it?

[HumphreyBogart]

Can someone tell me how long this day will last.

That Boberz guy is probably clean. Grasping at straws, but clean.

[boberz]

The quicker you guys do someting the more info we will have HB. So go and attack someone for something, I honestly dont care what.

Why do you think I want either those things chess? eanwhile go and talk about someone other than yourself.

[oneequalstwo]

@Bogart: rofl you didn't put your vote in the proper form
Hmm darn there is a strange lack of RVS, I'll

unvote

because of that.
Hmm darn boberz seems eager to lynch chess... unless the term "wagon" means what I do not think it means. @boberz: Do you propose we ride him to L-3/2/1, or do you propose we lynch him?
You seem very very eager to milk info from chess very early in the game, and after I read all of your posts, I do not see your argument making any sense. Refined argument pl0x? TYIA.

[Kison]

Day One Vote Count

oneequalstwo (

2

) : zipperflesh, HumphreyBogart
boberz (

1

) : CommieX
HumphreyBogart (

1

) : parknourie
chesskid3 (

1

) : boberz
Pandabeer (

1

) : RedCoyote

Not Voting (

3

) : chesskid3, Pandabeer, oneequalstwo

With

9

alive, it will take

5

votes to lynch.

The day's deadline is currently set to:

September 11th, 2010, 11:59:59 PM, EST

[RedCoyote]

@allrandomvoters!!! why have you random voted???

I actually want to hear more from Pandabeer, so I guess there's that.

RedCoyote, why present a case on someone (1=2) then random vote???

Because I get a sincere vibe from him. Normally a red flag will shoot up if someone seems overly concerned about how other players see them, but I'm not prepared to push this point against 1=2.

---

@Everyone: What times in EST (or GMT - X) are good for you to be online? There doesn't seem to be much activity here.

12 AM - 3 AM due to working a graveyard shift. Weekends are irregular.

---

Can someone tell me how long this day will last.

They vary greatly. If I were to generalize, I'd suspect that newbie games are the most erratic, sometimes ending within a couple of days, some lasting the entire three weeks. I'd say a rough average is two weeks.

[HumphreyBogart]

What the hell? a sincere vibe? It's text.

You guys use way too many acronyms.

[parknourie]

@Mod: Are you sure your vote count today is correct? I voted Humphrey Bogart. Not Boberz

[boberz]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... reviations that should helpt you out HB

I will personally object if the day is less than 15 pages.

---

A wagon means a bandwagon. I expect it would lead to L-2 or something, but perhaps if we hit scum it would be worth a lynch, not on the current info though.

---

My case kind of developed rather than all at once, but I will make it clearer in my next post.

---

Meanwhile

unvote vote 1=2

Why is it bad that we are out of random vote stage?
He also did the classic unvote because I am scared that this vote might be analysed at some point...
Doesn't seem to like me milking chess for info, so I'll milk him instead.
Needs to scumhunt more.

---

@RedCOyote, so your random vote is going to make panda feel pressure and talk to you? If you have a suspicion act on it,don't disguise it in randomness.

[Pandabeer]

The randomvote works, cause here i am...

boberz, i have to say you have a very active scum-hunt attitude, but i like that. Why are you unvoting chess, because he still failed to explain why he justifies lying as town?

1=2, why are you unvoting due lack of RVS. If you like to randomvote, keep random voting .

Meanwhile, I'd like to hear some more than just randomness from HumphreyBogart.

[boberz]

Because I need a wagon. I have not given up on chess.

Speaking of that, here is why chess is scum:

Chess assumes I want to lynch him or make him claim. Neither of which are true, but shows how he has a selfpreservation mentality more commonly attributed to scum.

He fails to do any scumhunting despite being one of the more active players.

An OMGUS vote (towards me) which is very reactive and suggests he knows people's allignements and is looking for a lynch rather than trying to find out who is what. Moroeverhe tries to disguise it as random when it is clearly not because I have been attacking him for a while.

Chess repeatedly tries to find situations where hecan lie. He is more than against a policy lynch he is actively justifying lying later. Meaning if we catch him in a lie when it is not acceptable he can point back to this moment. (@Panda dont think I didnt notice you do similar earlier aswell, you are not going to get away with buttering me up early)

---

Other noteworty early things:

Zipper trying to stop discussion and defends chess early, for little reason. Uses emotive language for no reason in defending chess and attacking me when it really was not appropriate. Suggests I shouldnt attack people in case I put them off mafia, completely against the spirit of the game.

Vote: Bogart

@Bogart: This is indeed your first game in this site?
Then How are you better than all of us? could you post some more?

@Everyone else: Bogart only posted a handful of posts and he avoids anything serious to talk about. This is very scummy and I think he is only doing this to avoid showing his thoughts.

Most hypocritical attack ever. Faile to even answer my very simple question, "what do you think of what has happened so far?"



Conclusion, a lot of players are avoiding starting the game. No excuse. Everyone post a case in the next page or two, preferably on chess or 1=2 but I am not fussy.

[chesskid3]

Actually, boberz, perhaps the reason I haven't done any scumhunting is because I've been too busy dealing with your attacks

[chesskid3]

EBWOP accidentally hit post, was not done.
Ever since the RQS you've been questioning me about my answer to LaL.
As for your other points...an RVS OMGUS doesn't do any harm, from what i've seen
...I haven't repeatedly tried to find situations in which I can lie, I have (tried to) point out some examples of how lying can benefit town in real-life games. Since i'm new to online mafia, I don't know whether or not it will have similar implications here.

What would you like me to infer from your intentions towards me, given that you've been after me as of page 1?
Also, I don't see much at all from anyone except boberz, so how am I supposed to have scum tells on 4 people like boberz here?

[Pandabeer]

3) @Everyone: What times in EST (or GMT - X) are good for you to be online? There doesn't seem to be much activity here.

My timezone is GMT-1, so I'm usually online somewhere between 11 AM until 11 PM (my timezone).

[oneequalstwo]

[quote="oneequalstwo]Hmm darn boberz seems eager to lynch chess... unless the term "wagon" means what I do not think it means. @boberz: Do you propose we ride him to L-3/2/1, or do you propose we lynch him?[/quote]
rofl he did not answer my question
I'll answer his:

Meanwhile unvote vote 1=2

Why is it bad that we are out of random vote stage?
He also did the classic unvote because I am scared that this vote might be analysed at some point...
Doesn't seem to like me milking chess for info, so I'll milk him instead.
Needs to scumhunt more.

If we are out of random voting stage (which we clearly are), then random votes won't help a bit. My vote was random, so I took it off...
And why are you scared that my votes will be analyzed?
And right now I can't scumhunt on people that haven't posted that much, so that leaves chess (who has just entered online mafia), you (whose arguments still don't make that much sense to me), and me (hmm how do I scumhunt myself???)

Could you please define a wagon, boberz? Right now it actually does look like you want to lynch chess or make him claim, so could you please clearly define a wagon?

[oneequalstwo]

format fail, what the post should be:

Hmm darn boberz seems eager to lynch chess... unless the term "wagon" means what I do not think it means. @boberz: Do you propose we ride him to L-3/2/1, or do you propose we lynch him?

rofl he did not answer my question
I'll answer his:

Meanwhile unvote vote 1=2

Why is it bad that we are out of random vote stage?
He also did the classic unvote because I am scared that this vote might be analysed at some point...
Doesn't seem to like me milking chess for info, so I'll milk him instead.
Needs to scumhunt more.

If we are out of random voting stage (which we clearly are), then random votes won't help a bit. My vote was random, so I took it off...
And why are you scared that my votes will be analyzed?
And right now I can't scumhunt on people that haven't posted that much, so that leaves chess (who has just entered online mafia), you (whose arguments still don't make that much sense to me), and me (hmm how do I scumhunt myself???)

Could you please define a wagon, boberz? Right now it actually does look like you want to lynch chess or make him claim, so could you please clearly define a wagon?[/quote]

[zipperflesh]

Because I need a wagon. I have not given up on chess.

How can you analyze a wagon you asked to be created? What info does a wagon on chess give you? I can understand reading a wagon that springs up naturally, but to ask everyone to vote for the sole purpose of putting a player at L-1 gives us no info, because everyone's motivation was to create a wagon.

Speaking of that, here is why chess is scum:

Chess assumes I want to lynch him or make him claim. Neither of which are true, but shows how he has a selfpreservation mentality more commonly attributed to scum.

Self-preservation is a mentality shared by all players. It's a false dichotomy to state that only scum wish to stay alive. A townie knows they are town, thus they know that lynching them is a waste. A townie lynch may provide information, but a townie shouldn't go down without a fight.

He fails to do any scumhunting despite being one of the more active players.

It's RVS, how much scumhunting can you do?

An OMGUS vote (towards me) which is very reactive and suggests he knows people's allignements and is looking for a lynch rather than trying to find out who is what. Moroeverhe tries to disguise it as random when it is clearly not because I have been attacking him for a while.

Can you provide the links to support this claim?

Chess repeatedly tries to find situations where hecan lie. He is more than against a policy lynch he is actively justifying lying later. Meaning if we catch him in a lie when it is not acceptable he can point back to this moment. (@Panda dont think I didnt notice you do similar earlier aswell, you are not going to get away with buttering me up early)

This is an outright misrepresentation. He was asked, if I recall correctly, in what situations a lie would be justifiable. There is nothing wrong in attempting to justify your point when you are asked to do so.

Other noteworty early things:

Zipper trying to stop discussion and defends chess early, for little reason. Uses emotive language for no reason in defending chess and attacking me when it really was not appropriate. Suggests I shouldnt attack people in case I put them off mafia, completely against the spirit of the game.

Yeah, this point needs more evidence as well. I countered your argument, because I believe you were overreacting and attempting to mudsling chess. You set him up for a future lynch by making it seem like he was intending to lie, when it's clear that it's not his intention to lie. How does giving a rebuttal to your attack constitute stopping discussion? If anything, I was encouraging and open debate.

Unvote. Vote: Boberz

[boberz]

You roll on the floor too much 1=2.

Could you please define a wagon, boberz? Right now it actually does look like you want to lynch chess or make him claim, so could you please clearly define a wagon?

A wagon means a bandwagon. I expect it would lead to L-2 or something, but perhaps if we hit scum it would be worth a lynch, not on the current info though.

And right now I can't scumhunt on people that haven't posted that much

Yes you can. I did, and I have more (but I think others should contribute)

And why are you scared that my votes will be analyzed?

Sorry that is my sarcastic tone I was suggesting that was your attitude.

My vote was random, so I took it off

If that is your attitude (it is also mine) then what was the point in a random vote at all. Then again ifyou ote someone I will probably join you once I have decent answers from chess.

I'll answer his

answer this then

Why is it bad that we are out of random vote stage?

---

@all, there is a case to be made for panda scum at the moment. Anyone care to have a try at making one?

---

Ever since the RQS you've been questioning me about my answer to LaL

Indeed, do some scumhunting as well. You can do more than one thing in a post.

I haven't repeatedly tried to find situations in which I can lie

There's the inspector claim when it's really your neighbor (doesn't work online),
The risky but effective fake inspector claim when you get a read you're sure of on someone (risky if the real inspector counterclaims or you're wrong)
Then of course there are also the scum lies, yes, but there are benefits as town to being somewhat suspicious.

"chess

Hypothetical: Were I for example doctor, and get hammered on day 1/2, I doubt I would claim doctor. Depending on the circumstances, I'd claim vanilla and try to beat the rap, because with these rules, a claimed doctor is worthless. There's a situation I would lie in. Of course now it's worthless because I just said it, but still.
[/quote]

continued justification...

because as soon as you claim doc, you die and town loses doc for sure, while if you beat the hammer, town doesn't lose doc...Doc/Inspector team is powerful enough that it can make up the difference. Again, I said depending on the situation, if I was going to be lynched prettymuch guaranteed without a great claim, I would, but if it looked like I might be able to escape, I wouldn't.

try again... or you can agree to not lie in this game (full stop) and I will drop that element of my case.

an RVS OMGUS doesn't do any harm

But it was not random because I had already made a case on you. You are clearly scum because you tried to use the existance of RVS to disguise your motives.

What would you like me to infer from your intentions towards me, given that you've been after me as of page 1?

I am scared because boberz has already found me as scum so I had better act confident and try and scare him off the scent

(not gonna work)

[boberz]

Cross post, I will answer the accusation in a sec

[boberz]

How can you analyze a wagon you asked to be created? What info does a wagon on chess give you? I can understand reading a wagon that springs up naturally, but to ask everyone to vote for the sole purpose of putting a player at L-1 gives us no info, because everyone's motivation was to create a wagon.

I can analyse it very well, much easier than a load of nonposters too scared to even keep their random votes alive. I can see who leaves the wagon when, I can see if there is a competing wagon, I can see what people's view of wagons are. Where did I say anything about L-1 (you wouldnt be misrepping me would you zipper?)?

Self-preservation is a mentality shared by all players. It's a false dichotomy to state that only scum wish to stay alive. A townie knows they are town, thus they know that lynching them is a waste. A townie lynch may provide information, but a townie shouldn't go down without a fight.

False, many townies do share selfpreservation, but they shouldnt. Every scum wants to stay alive. Therefore you are more likely to be scum if you have a selfpreservation mentality. In many cases a townie is better dead because you can analyse what he says etc...

It's RVS, how much scumhunting can you do?

Plenty. Otherwise the game would be a perpetual random game which it is not.

Can you provide the links to support this claim?

DO it yourself there is only four pages. See me making several posts against chess and him replying, followed by him voting "boberz because it sounds like roberz"

This is an outright misrepresentation. He was asked, if I recall correctly, in what situations a lie would be justifiable. There is nothing wrong in attempting to justify your point when you are asked to do so

When asked rather than realise he was wrong he made several attempts to justify lying, do you really expect me to let it go, just because he may actually believe what he is saying.

Yeah, this point needs more evidence as well. I countered your argument, because I believe you were overreacting and attempting to mudsling chess. You set him up for a future lynch by making it seem like he was intending to lie, when it's clear that it's not his intention to lie. How does giving a rebuttal to your attack constitute stopping discussion? If anything, I was encouraging and open debate.

What do you actually want me to do. Quote the post where you said I was giving him the "3rd degree" etc... Yolu actively tell me not to attack chess and for absolutely no reason, it isnt like it was a massive wago or something.

---

Conclusion.

Every player, iso me and then iso zipper.

Who looks like they are trying to stimulate discussion the most?
Who looks like they are trying to find scum?
Who looks like they are proper scared that I have caught their buddy early on? (the reply to this question will be "are you serious?" my answer will be "probably not")

[RedCoyote]

What the hell? a sincere vibe? It's text.

Hah. Behind that text is a person though, HB. Just like, despite your tough guy vibe, I know, deep down, you're just a warm, cuddly, and loving human being.

No, but seriously though, I'm not feeling it. I'll latch onto something soon enough, but I'm glad you're holding my feet to the fire. I see that as a town tell.

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@RedCOyote, so your random vote is going to make panda feel pressure and talk to you? If you have a suspicion act on it,don't disguise it in randomness.

I like your style, boberz. I like your aggression and straight-forward attitude. I'm getting strong, townie vibes all over the place, which probably means I'm not being suspicious enough. The comment was just a cute, tongue-in-cheek remark, but I actually did want to hear more from him.

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Actually, boberz, perhaps the reason I haven't done any scumhunting is because I've been too busy dealing with your attacks

This seems like passing the buck to me. An excuse, you know, an out for chess. boberz is picking on him, so he's crossing his arms and pouting. Man up, chess.

---

Self-preservation is a mentality shared by all players. It's a false dichotomy to state that only scum wish to stay alive. A townie knows they are town, thus they know that lynching them is a waste. A townie lynch may provide information, but a townie shouldn't go down without a fight.

I don't necessarily agree with this. There's a difference between being interested in self-preservation and being interested in town-preservation. A truly town-aligned player should be more willing to be controversial, offensive, aggressive, and suspicious. Although the best scum players will be able to feign these traits well, they know, ultimately, that their side will be dealt a serious blow if they get voted. This necessarily, even if they're wonderful at hiding it, incentivizes passive, safe, and calculated behavior.

It's RVS, how much scumhunting can you do?

I disagree that we're still in an random stage, and, moreover, I disagree with the idea that scumhunting is to be confined by whatever arbitrary parameters you'd give it.

---

DO it yourself there is only four pages.

Ugh, I hate comments like these. This is unnecessarily hostile and closed off. I think, and some would say this is a controversial opinion, that picking up townie reads can be just as important as scumreads. With that, I'm a bit put off by the fact that boberz has basically assigned guilt to 1=2, zipper, Panda, chess, and park so easily. Aggression is one thing, but one should also be realistic in their approach to the game. There are only two scum in this game, after all.

[boberz]

It wasnt meant to be capitalised in that way (typo), but being asked to quote a post with a vote in it when the player has apparently taken great interest in the exchange between myself is a little bit harsh in itself.

I am not convinced all of those five are scum. And I have only made a proper case on chess, just quoted things of a few others for interest.

For the record I do not really think it is zipper, he is like 5th of that 5. Just thought attack was the best form of defence (along with an actual defence)

---

Fancy a wagon Red? Ill go with anyone you want.

[zipperflesh]

False, many townies do share selfpreservation, but they shouldnt. Every scum wants to stay alive. Therefore you are more likely to be scum if you have a selfpreservation mentality. In many cases a townie is better dead because you can analyse what he says etc...

I can tell you I will always have a self-preservation mentality, regardless of my alignment. The only way I would willing be lynched over Random Guy X is if I knew for a fact it would net the town scum. The fact is a player knows their own alignment, therefore it's better to get the town lynch anyone else because they have more chance of being scum when you yourself have 0 chance of being scum.

Plenty. Otherwise the game would be a perpetual random game which it is not.

If this is true, then why do you need a wagon? If there is plenty of stuff to use scumhunting, then use it instead of asking for a random bandwagon.

DO it yourself there is only four pages. See me making several posts against chess and him replying, followed by him voting "boberz because it sounds like roberz"

Since when is it okay to not provide evidence to back up your claims?

When asked rather than realise he was wrong he made several attempts to justify lying, do you really expect me to let it go, just because he may actually believe what he is saying.

You're using his thoughts on mafia theory to justify an attack on him for something that he "MIGHT DO" in the future. We should lynch people for what they "HAVE DONE" not for what they "MIGHT DO." Not adhering to LaL doesn't make one scum.

What do you actually want me to do. Quote the post where you said I was giving him the "3rd degree" etc... Yolu actively tell me not to attack chess and for absolutely no reason, it isnt like it was a massive wago or something.

How is countering your point and attacking you killing discussion? You made a move and I responded. Did you expect everyone to follow you blindly? I'm not keen on voting people for something I don't think they are guilty of.