Does this mean that you think that Shotty is town, and Avish is scum-voting him? If so, what do you make of the proposal to lynch Shotty? What'sVasudeVa wrote:a good reliable tell is blatant opportunism. I think that you have displayed such, with your L-1 vote to drmyshotty while saying that you aren't in agreement of voting the 'unpopular people'.
This is absolutely correct. It is also the exact reason that no one should ever claim before L-1. Not only that, but you shouldn't even claim at L-1 until someone has stated that they are willing to hammer. Shotty's claim was extremely premature as no one suggested that they were considering hammering. The only reason we get a claim before a lynch is so any PR can provide us with information before their lynch. It is not designed to prevent the lynch, rather sharing information before that lynch takes place. It is extremely important to the town that no one claims until someone has shown interest in hammering.Vox wrote:My point is: if the player has claimed VT, and we DON'T lynch him, then when it comes to choosing a night kill, the scum will have a greater chance of hitting PRs, because they will have one person out of however many that they know isn't a PR. Taking "tonight" as an example, leaving Shotty alive could, in the worst case scenario, leave scum with 2/5 chance of hitting a PR. Whereas if we were to lynch shotty and he flips town, that goes down to 2/6.
That's just it, though. Even if the player claims doc/cop, we hammer anyway. We only have a 25% chance of having both, so it's a fair assumption to make that a claimed PR will die in the night anyway. Scum can, and will, fake claim PR's if they are certain they will be lynched. This has the chance of outing a PR in the process, to actually help their team before they die. A claim isn't, and shouldn't be, a deterrence to a lynch. It should only be used to share any information before you die.Vox wrote:It would be worst for us to leave Shotty alive, i.e. try to lynch someone else because (a) it narrows PRs down for scum and (b) wagoning on someone else might out a PR.
What does page number have to do with anything? In some games the RVS lasts 5 pages. Also, this is the exact opposite of what you said earlier:Shotty wrote:i disagree with it at this point in the game. in 5 more pages i'm cool with it
While you did mention the page number, you clearly expressed that lynch townie claims was a sad excuse for a policy lynch. Are you seriously trying to get us to believe that in five more pages you'll be ok with us lynching you for claiming VT? You are just saying what you think people want to hear.Shotty wrote:We are two pages in, and lynch all townie claims is just a sad excuse for a policy lynch!
That's not the entirety of it. His VI style is intentional, that's my problem with it. He wanted his title on this site to say "The VI has arrived."Kingcheese wrote:Not that your scummy but that you apprently have a VI play style.
VasudeVa wrote:@Avish:Another IC player in another game me an' Leech are in have outlined that the main difference between MS and other sites is that other sites rely on Night play(via actions) but this site relies on Day play(via: analysis of votes, statements etc.) and a good reliable tell is blatant opportunism. I think that you have displayed such, with your L-1 vote to drmyshotty while saying that you aren't in agreement of voting the 'unpopular people'.
I suggest you answer some of the questions others such as I have asked before you start your own questionnaire.drmyshottyizsik wrote:ok, Everyone I want you to answer me some questions
1. Who is scum
2. Why
3. How
4. Policy lynch me or not?
i was getting to that, but first i want you guys to answer these questionsKingcheese wrote:I suggest you answer some of the questions others such as I have asked before you start your own questionnaire.drmyshottyizsik wrote:ok, Everyone I want you to answer me some questions
1. Who is scum
2. Why
3. How
4. Policy lynch me or not?
That will never change, either.Kingcheese wrote:Even when asked questions of great importance to help the town win, he simply ignores them or offers simplistic one liners that fail to help anyone including himself
Why are you asking four questions when you clearly only care about the last one? Let's face it, it's impossible to have any scum read at this point. That fact directly invalidates the next two questions. The only question that can be answered at this point is the last one. You just asked three distracting questions for no reason, before the one you actually want answered. Why are you going out of your way to mask what you are doing?Shotty wrote:ok, Everyone I want you to answer me some questions
1. Who is scum
2. Why
3. How
4. Policy lynch me or not?
Can you please make this the ONE game you actually pay attention to? Your "point" makes absolutely no sense because no one is expecting you to post who you think is scum, or why. That simply has not been requested of you. You aren't answering questions that players are asking, those we do expect you to answer. You are responding to specific things, and leaving out the rest. In fact, you are the first person to ask those questions. Mind telling me how you were making a point about those questions being unanswerable at this phase of the game, when you're the first person to ask them? Mind telling me how you're justified in demanding people answer your questions first, while you've blatantly ignored many questions from other players of the game?Shotty wrote:actually leech you just made my point for me, there are no reads yet, there for one cannot expect me to post who I think is scum and or why. So good night, lets continue this tomorrow
Four pages in, all I know about you is that you're fat. (Not an insult, look at his sig.) By all means you should remedy the issue with scumhunting by adding your own insights on all the happenings in the thread.EggyLv999 wrote:This isn't conducive to scumhunting at all.
EggyLv999 wrote:This isn't conducive to scumhunting at all.
It won't make you look bad if he flips town. What makes you look bad was your actual reason for voting. In your voting post you actually stated you weren't fond of the PL against shotty, rather you were voting because he didn't come on to defend himself. Even worse is the fact that you later tried to find out if your reason was acceptable by asking about "how long is too long". When you go along with something that you even say you don't agree with, while justifying it with a pretty terrible reason...that's what makes you look bad.Avish wrote:At this point, if he is lynched and turns out to be townie, it's going to look bad for me. I realize that.
That's a pretty heavy reaction to a single vote on you. This isn't the first time you've had an over-the-top reaction. Very interesting indeed.Avish wrote:Now, I'm not telling you that to dissuade from lynching me or anything...I just want everybody to understand that I have a valid reason for not being around. You all gotta do what you gotta do and for my part, I am not going to take personally anything that happens in a game. I'll see you fine folk the day after tomorrow if I'm still alive.
Except VV is the IC which IS a teaching role. Nice way to ignore all the accusations and arguments levelled against you thoughdrmyshottyizsik wrote:SE just means you have played 2 or more games, it is not a teaching role
I'm not sure with Shotty since he's been staying in nullsville for a while, but Avish' attack is pretty opportunistic. Do you disagree with this?AV wrote:Does this mean that you think that Shotty is town, and Avish is scum-voting him? If so, what do you make of the proposal to lynch Shotty? What's your take on lynch all claimed townies?
This is correct. It is easier for your fellow players if you could make some comments on what is happening in thread in general, so that we may find connections and at the same time give us an idea where you standLeech to Eggy wrote:Four pages in, all I know about you is that you're fat. (Not an insult, look at his sig.) By all means you should remedy the issue with scumhunting by adding your own insights on all the happenings in the thread.
. You could also ask questions to people, so that you may clarify their intents and maybe ease their scummyness out. I'm not sure what post you're talking about here, but I'd like my questions answered regardless since none of the above posts seem to answer my question anyway.Longing wrote:Sigh VV, you should read the post above you
Call me Vas, ;D A little less active than I used to be due to IRL. Hoping to be back up to speed soon-ish!
Null, eh. That doesn't help at all xD I had prepared rapid retort questions depending on if you said "town" or "scum" but you've said neither which takes the wind out of my sails.VasudeVa wrote:I'm not sure with Shotty since he's been staying in nullsville for a while, but Avish' attack is pretty opportunistic. Do you disagree with this?
I wouldn't hammer him right now, but I would (now) announce my intent to hammer later. Imo, Shotty is our lynch for today, whenever that time eventually comes.VasudeVa wrote:Lynch all claimed Townies is a fine tactic and all, but I prefer to be flexible. A shotty lynchright nowis a bit too early though. If you weren't voting for shotty right now, would you hammer/threaten to hammer him?
Day play in this site requires some heavy vote analysis, some text analysis and some gut. We embrace the freedom to move about our votes, ask questions when people put other people into dangerous L-1 situations and it is normally good if you read into what someone is saying. If you haven't noticed by now, the setup involves a majority of the players being Vanilla Townies. So other than voting and posting, most people don't really get to do much.Avish wrote:VasudeVa wrote:@Avish:Another IC player in another game me an' Leech are in have outlined that the main difference between MS and other sites is that other sites rely on Night play(via actions) but this site relies on Day play(via: analysis of votes, statements etc.) and a good reliable tell is blatant opportunism. I think that you have displayed such, with your L-1 vote to drmyshotty while saying that you aren't in agreement of voting the 'unpopular people'.
Your assessment of day play v. night play is correct. That different mindset is something I frankly am struggling to wrap my brain around. Furthermore, this small game provides another mindset I am struggling to wrap my brain around. The other game I am currently playing has 40 players, among them are two mafias, and a serial killer. I am accustomed to the notion of "acceptable losses", which may not be applicable here.
Opportunism, eh? Not hardly. When I made that statement it was intended to be a warning. I meant that I would quickly pull my vote if I thought that the complaints against this player were not valid, but rather an excuse to exclude someone simply because he isn't liked. This L-2, L-1 thing is new to me. In the kind of games I've played such a thing is not considered significant. I didn't even realize I was doing something noteworthy. I had intended to vote for him before, so I simply did so again.
I've asked shotty to defend himself, but he refuses to do so...refuses to even acknowledge the arguments against him. I find that suspicious. And you, I feel like you are splitting hairs trying to form a wagon against me. I'm starting to find that suspicious, as well. There is something you should know, however:
I have no fear.
My overriding goal in this game is simple: I want the town to win.
Whether or not I, personally, survive to the end of the game is of secondary importance. If I die, either because I am lynched or because I am killed in the night, I just hope the townies can use my death to root out scum. At least, that has been my philosophy in the games I've played. That's not to say I'm willing to just throw my life away, or anything, I just mean that the greater good is more important than me as an individual player. If that is the wrong ideal around here, please say so. After all, you are here to "teach" us how the game is played here, are you not?
Call me Vas, ;D A little less active than I used to be due to IRL. Hoping to be back up to speed soon-ish!
If you're looking at it from that angle, you have to ask yourself why he'd be doing that? Longing supports a policy in the same manner as I do. We don't care if he's town or scum, as we realize that no matter what alignment he won't be helping the town. When the subject is a policy lynch, of this nature, why would scum go to that trouble when they could just say that they felt he was a better lynch regardless of his alignment? I find him suspicious for various reasions, but that one really doesn't make much sense.Vox wrote:Sounds to me like he's trying to distance himself from his vote in the event of Shotty flips town; but still gets the credit of acting with the town.
Yes, TheLonging should not have asked him to claim. A request to claim should only occur if you are about to hammer that player. It should not happen any sooner than that.Vox wrote:Do you think it was a premature claim considering that TheLonging explicitly asked him to claim in #27?
I fail to see why his alignment, or his claim, are even issues here. This player has deliberately cost the town games by self-hammering in LyLo situations. He should not make it that far in this game. Also, the only time you should ever policy lynch is in the first phase of the game. This is the only time of the game where it's a viable option. At any other phase in this game we will be sacrificing much more substantial reads on players, or giving up information learned from the subsequent nights to lynch him. I'm not saying lynch him this instant, but we need to lynch him in this phase.Vas wrote:So, opinions on the shotty wagon? What do you think of shotty's responses? Do you think he's scum or he's Town due to them? Do you believe his claim?
It's a case of backing herself into a corner and having to deal with it. Oh...but your point is; "why would she back herself into a corner in the first place?" Which is a valid point. Hmm.Leech wrote:If you're looking at it from that angle, you have to ask yourself why he'd be doing that? [...] When the subject is a policy lynch, of this nature, why would scum go to that trouble when they could just say that they felt he was a better lynch regardless of his alignment?Vox wrote:Sounds to me like he's trying to distance himself from his vote in the event of Shotty flips town; but still gets the credit of acting with the town.
So shouldn't you be arguing that the emphasis of prematurity is on TheLonging, rather than Shotty in this case? I don't like people who areLeech wrote:Yes, TheLonging should not have asked him to claim. A request to claim should only occur if you are about to hammer that player. It should not happen any sooner than that.Vox wrote:Do you think it was a premature claim considering that TheLonging explicitly asked him to claim in #27?
here's this post VV. Merry Christmas.TheLonging wrote:and yes I believe I misunderstood you or read too deep, I think I get what you mean.
Whoa, I never said that not agreeing with the policy lynch but still voting anyway is a town tell. I was pointing out that your perspective on it, wasn't quite one I'd agree with. The fact that someone will say one thing and do another, is a severe lack of consistency that we should consider. This is especially true when a player disagrees with a valid point against a player, while condoning a far weaker one.Vox wrote:I'm going to reconsider my early Avish read in light of this. I mean, if her not agreeing with the policy lynch but still voting for Shotty is something of a towntell (i.e. optimum scum play would dictate that she would either agree with the policy lynch and vote for Shotty, or disagree and not vote for Shotty), then how far does that weaken the case on her vote being opportunistic too? I think your point on her - overly defensive - is probably the best out of all three. I mean, there's always the fact that she might not follow optimum scum play, and could have inadvertently backed herself into a corner (or be WIFOMing), but your point significantly weakens my argument.
Isn't that what I am arguing? I said that Shotty claimed pre-maturely, but I never said it was his fault. I was simply stating that no one should claim until they are L-1 and someone has suggested that they are willing to hammer. Also, no one should request a claim until they are ready to hammer, as well. There will be many L-1 situations in this game, and not all of them are going to result in a lynch. We should only ask for claims when a lynch is about to take place.Vox wrote:So shouldn't you be arguing that the emphasis of prematurity is on TheLonging, rather than Shotty in this case? I don't like people who are not on L-1 claiming; and I believe that premature VT claims more often than not come from scum. But I don't think you can hold Shotty accountable for an early claim when he was directly asked to.
If people will pay attention and agree that no one should ask for a claim until someone is willing to hammer, then I don't really see that as much of a problem. If someone hammers suddenly without asking for a claim first, then that will make that player pretty suspicious will it not? This is precisely why I'm trying to get this idea planted in your minds early. If someone later in the game goes against this, then they will have some answering to do.Vox wrote:As for TheLonging, although I agree that it was unlikely he would get hammered, being at L-1 does leave Shotty open to someone hammering without announcing it; improbable =/= impossible. I think asking for a claim now was as good a time as any; especially considering most people are agreed that Shotty is the lynch for the day.