Newbie 1,276 (Game over!)

Cheery Dog · Post Post #75 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:36 am

In post 74, Paschendale wrote:Don't be fooled, Wiibox. 2 of the 3 votes on me are nothing more than OMGUS.

What does that make the third vote?

Paschendale · Post Post #76 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:22 am

In post 75, Cheery Dog wrote:
In post 74, Paschendale wrote:Don't be fooled, Wiibox. 2 of the 3 votes on me are nothing more than OMGUS.

What does that make the third vote?

Genuine, but misguided. He's confusing a healthy little bit of caution with being wishy washy. I've made it quite clear the extent to which I suspect Nekoko and MissMaggot. I haven't said one thing and then another. It's especially odd that "wishy washy" implies that I'm supposed to commit to some kind of longterm reads this early in the game. All I have to go on is what people have said so far.

I'm honestly confused as to why everyone has stopped discussing Venrob, and how Ewo can think ANYONE is scummier looking than Venrob right now. MissMaggot's indignation seems to have pulled the conversation completely away from Venrob, and he's just been lurking ever since. He did actually scummy things, like putting in a dangerous vote simply because it was the popular wagon, and not giving any kind of decent reasons, and then disappearing. All I've been doing has been scumhunting, and some of those who fell under scrutiny were offended and lashed out. I'm being attacked for bruising egos while doing my town-ly duties.

MissMaggot · Post Post #77 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:17 am

Sorry that I haven't posted for a bit. School started for me this week. I've been able to at least keep up with reading but I haven't had time to analyze it all yet. On my phone on break at work right now. I'll try to make time tonight for something more thorough.

nhammen · Post Post #78 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:08 pm

In post 62, Nekoko wrote:Careful there. Everyone here has the same probability as to be town as you are.
But yeah both of venrob's case doesn't make sense.

Sorry, my logic wasn't properly stated. I was arguing against his logic, which was that an IC as scum is really bad. I was just saying that one reason this is dumb, is because it completely discounts an IC as town.

In post 69, ewo2 wrote:Honestly after rereading wiibox, it seems like he's just an inexperienced player, not necessarily scum. His RV in post 16 contains a vote-tag mistake, and his desire to implement flavor seems more genuine in an iso-read. His very first post plays into the flavor of the game as well. As a new player I can understand how he'd think players would pay more attention to flavor when it's really just something fun for the mod in a normal game like this one.

UNVOTE:

Ummm... Did you forget who you were voting for? Also, you seem to have forgotten to answer my question about why you chose the person you voted for.

In post 69, ewo2 wrote:Town: Cheery dog, Maggot,
Null: wii, nhammen, McLucien
Scum: Pasch, venrob, nekoko

You seem to have good logical reasoning behind this, so I wont argue with that, but I will say that the fact that your reads changed so that they yet again match with the current wagons strikes me as suspicious.

In post 70, Paschendale wrote:There was no night 0 phase in this game. There is literally no way that scum could have scripted an interaction without cheating. Her allegation is 100% impossible to be correct. Since the role PMs went out for this game, no one should have been talking about it outside this thread.

Mod: Could you tell us whether the scum were allowed to communicate during confirmation phase?

In post 74, Paschendale wrote:Don't be fooled, Wiibox. 2 of the 3 votes on me are nothing more than OMGUS.

I disagree with this. They see to feel their reasons are legitimate. However, I disagree with their reasons as well.

nhammen · Post Post #79 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:09 pm

Oh, right.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: ewo

nhammen · Post Post #80 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:11 pm

In post 76, Paschendale wrote:I'm honestly confused as to why everyone has stopped discussing Venrob

In post 61, Paschendale wrote:In my experience, idiotic usually means town.

Nekoko · Post Post #81 (ISO) » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:14 am

Sorry guys, I've been busy for the past few days. I will definitely post tomorrow at the same time I posted this.
I had exams and will have another one tomorrow.

Cheery Dog · Post Post #82 (ISO) » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:15 am

In post 76, Paschendale wrote: and how Ewo can think ANYONE is scummier looking than Venrob right now.

Maybe he believes what venrob has posted so far to be a mistake by a townie. Why should who everyone views as the scummiest player be the one you have your vote on?

I happen to find this bit of your post to be the scummiest sentence so far this game, but it's not enough for me to move my vote.

Are you surprised about that others have also found people scummier to them than venrob?

Wiibox3 · Post Post #83 (ISO) » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:26 am

In post 80, nhammen wrote:
In post 76, Paschendale wrote:I'm honestly confused as to why everyone has stopped discussing Venrob

In post 61, Paschendale wrote:In my experience, idiotic usually means town.

My only question about Venrob is why he has been so quiet the last few days in this game, even though he has been online. I'd like to hear more of his take of the game since his little rant.

Also McLucien18 hasn't been on the site since Monday, I'm wondering if he is going to show up and start participating in the game today or will we have to get a replacement....

Wiibox3 · Post Post #84 (ISO) » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:36 am

In post 76, Paschendale wrote:I'm honestly confused as to why everyone has stopped discussing Venrob,

We don't have a whole lot to go on with him. He has only posted twice. Though his post could either look scummy or just not well thought through, it's hard to tell since he has been inactive in this game.

In post 76, Paschendale wrote:, and he's just been lurking ever since. He did actually scummy things, like putting in a dangerous vote simply because it was the popular wagon, and not giving any kind of decent reasons, and then disappearing.

I wonder as well, but until we hear more from him... But since he has been on the site and most likely lurking, I feel that it might be a good idea to put a little pressure on him so he will contribute more.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Venrob

ewo2 · Post Post #85 (ISO) » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:16 am

@nh - I thought my reason for choosing nekoko over wii would be obvious - voting wii at that time would have put him at L-1, whereas voting nekoko put her at L-2. I found them both scummy and thought it was too early for an L-1. Also, there's a reason my suspicions changed (and it makes sense that they'd align with the current wagons) - players fluctuate between coming across as scummy or town as the game goes on.

The first hint of no-so-townie play from nh came in his recent posts - asking the mod if the scum could communicate during confirmation? As an IC have you actually seen that in newbie games before? Day-start games, as far as I'm aware, don't work that way. It strikes me as odd that you'd publicly try to verify something that I'm sure you know is almost certainly not the case - the only reason I can see for doing so is to help Pasch out by verifying that the "scripted" allegations are false. Also, your vote change seems ill-supported, and I'm not clear on what post 80 actually means.

@ Pasch-

Here are the posts I found wishy-washy:

In post 50, Paschendale wrote:I didn't even necessarily say you were distancing, only that you did something that looks like distancing.

In post 67, Paschendale wrote:And technically, I didn't say that MissMaggot was an honest townie. I said that she is doing something that honest townies do. That's not a 100% endorsement.

In post 70, Paschendale wrote:That feels town to me, though it is not good town play. I could be wrong. She could be scum.

The above post was about Maggot - in two separate posts Pasch has tread very carefully around calling Maggot town. This makes me curious about their interaction early in the game - it's pretty good distancing. Maggot also fell off the map once the wagon on Pasch started rolling, so I'm curious to hear from her.

As for the idea of a scripted interaction, the simple knowledge of who your partner is has a big effect on how you interact with them. No one thinks you ACTUALLY wrote out a script, so perhaps scripted isn't the right word for it - "forced" is probably better. However, in rereading that portion of the game after having seen more of nekoko and Pasch, it doesn't seem forced. It's consistent with the tone and pattern of their speech in their other posts.

Wii is a definite wagon jumper.

Updated reads:

Town: Cheery dog
Null: McLucien, Maggot, wii
Scummy: Pasch, venrob, nekoko, nhammen

Paschendale · Post Post #86 (ISO) » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:45 am

Basically, Ewo, it's that I don't have a strong read on her either way. Her indignation feels towny to me, but that's hardly enough reason to lean either way. I didn't want to give the impression that I had a stronger lean than that. The trouble with my argument with her has been that I'm not actually trying to get her lynched. I'm not trying to prove that she's scummy, only that she's wrong, and that her energy is misdirected. I mainly just wanted her off my back. Having to defend myself from her has made it more difficult to examine other things, and it has steered too much of the conversation around me, which I obviously don't think is helpful, since I know my own alignment.

I'm curious about your scum read on Nhammen. I think his point in asking the mod was so that there would be no chance that that information could be questioned based on its source. Suppose that NH was scum. Declaring that there was a pregame discussion phase and that I was lying would put a nail in my coffin, but the mod could then come in and state otherwise. And if NH said there wasn't one, then someone could accuse us of being scum together and him covering for me. Either way, the source of the information will always be suspect if it comes from a player in the game. Since it's about the mechanics of the game itself, it is more appropriate for the mod to address that.

Also, I think post 80 was chastising me for saying that stupid play is townie, and then essentially voting for Venrob for stupid play. I think loud, vocal stupid play is townie. But combine it with lurking, and I think that leans scummier. Either way, it's stronger than any other reads I have, except possibly Nekoko. I'd really like to hear more contributions (and not just defense) from the two of them.

MissMaggot · Post Post #87 (ISO) » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:52 am

Alright, on break at work again, but I'm going to try to dummarize my thoughts on everyone in the short time that I have.

I'll start with Paschen. He hasn't really done anything I would find particularly scummy since I latched onto his face, and he's responding well to the pressure by providing subsantial reasons and analyzing things. Also his frustration with efforts being wasted on him seems genuine, and I can surely relate to it from my last game. With all of that in mind, I'm going to

Unvote: Paschendale

Nhammen has read as pretty townish to me until he voted for ewo. I don't really understand his reasoning at all.

Ewo and CheeryDog are both pretty townish to me with how they've been scumhunting and analyzing. Though CheeryDog moreso than Ewo.

Venrob is a bit of a mystery to me. He's either scum or just an angry person who was butthurt about being reprimanded for his little explosion so he's not paying us any mind now.

Won't know anything about Mclucien until he posts, but it does not look good on him that he hasn't yet. If he gets replaced, we should certainly keep a close eye on his replacement.

I haven't really been able to get a decent read on Nekoko yet, and I don't have the time to dig deeper at the moment. I will take a closer look when I can.

Wiibox is similarly difficult to read. The only regret I have from hopping off of him to Paschen is that there wasn't enough pressure to get anything out of him after that.

I would like to place my vote on Venrob at this point, but it doesn't feel safe to have anyone at L-1 with Mclucien still being mysteriously missing. Being at L-1 early isn't really a bad thing, but it can be if mistakes happen, and right now we're wide open for mistakes with an unknown player on our hands.

StrangerCoug · Post Post #88 (ISO) » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:22 pm

In post 78, nhammen wrote:
Mod: Could you tell us whether the scum were allowed to communicate during confirmation phase?

They were, as stated in the role listing.

Paschendale · Post Post #89 (ISO) » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:00 pm

In post 88, StrangerCoug wrote:
In post 78, nhammen wrote:
Mod: Could you tell us whether the scum were allowed to communicate during confirmation phase?

They were, as stated in the role listing.

I'm surprised by this. It wasn't the case in the other newbie games I've played here.

Cheery Dog · Post Post #90 (ISO) » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:45 pm

In post 89, Paschendale wrote:
In post 88, StrangerCoug wrote:
In post 78, nhammen wrote:
Mod: Could you tell us whether the scum were allowed to communicate during confirmation phase?

They were, as stated in the role listing.

I'm surprised by this. It wasn't the case in the other newbie games I've played here.

It depends on who the mod is, from what games I've read, most of the newbie games have had pregame chat enabled for the scum.
I just looked through your newbie games, while I don't know about 1246 since it didn't say in the rolepm (and the scumQT wasn't posted, though looking at Agar's modded newbie game before that it was the case (it was posted at endgame) so I would assume it's the same), 1006 said that the scum could talk pregame. (though I guess since that was 2 years ago you wouldn't remember).

Could you list examples of games where pregame scumchat wasn't allowed? (either a rolepm or QT link saying "you may not use this until night 1")

Paschendale · Post Post #91 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:27 am

Well, if you looked through my completed games, you'd see that I wasn't scum in any of them, so the only ones I could post would be current ones, which is very much not allowed. 1006 was before the current 2of4 setup was adopted, I think, so it wouldn't necessarily apply. Nothing in any of the other games I've played suggested that there was a pregame night phase. Having never encountered one, I thought that all newbie games had the same rule about it.

I'll admit, I didn't read all of the role PMs on the first page. I know why they're there, to ensure standardization. I only read my own.

Cheery Dog · Post Post #92 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:34 am

ok that's fine (and I will ignore the bit that mentions having links in current games).

All the other newbie games I read before my first game (because I got bored of waiting for it to start) that had QT links at endgame had the pregame chat in them, therefore I was just asking to see if you had spotted any newbie I had missed which didn't allow it and were shown to not have allowed it. I don't know about the other levels of games.
I'll be back after doing a bit more research to see if I missed any or not, as I am seeing a possible scumslip from your surprise.

Nekoko · Post Post #93 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:49 am

Sorry guys I don't think I can play right now
as I'm currently busy with school and stuff.

MOD: I would like to be replaced please

Nekoko · Post Post #94 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:50 am

Sorry to disappoint people!

Paschendale · Post Post #95 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:18 am

In post 92, Cheery Dog wrote:ok that's fine (and I will ignore the bit that mentions having links in current games).

All the other newbie games I read before my first game (because I got bored of waiting for it to start) that had QT links at endgame had the pregame chat in them, therefore I was just asking to see if you had spotted any newbie I had missed which didn't allow it and were shown to not have allowed it. I don't know about the other levels of games.
I'll be back after doing a bit more research to see if I missed any or not, as I am seeing a possible scumslip from your surprise.

Well, consider this. If I had gotten a scum PM this game, I would have known that there would have been the chance for night 0 discussions. If I knew that, do you think I would have relied on other people not to have realized it? That's a pretty tricky gamble.

Let me ask you something. Did you read the listing of possible PMs? No one but the mod said "yeah, it's in the PMs, take a look," so I must presume that generally, everyone only reads their own PM. Nhammen didn't know. Did you know? Even MissMaggot didn't know.

PS, Take care, Nekoko

Cheery Dog · Post Post #96 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:43 am

In post 95, Paschendale wrote:
Let me ask you something. Did you read the listing of possible PMs? No one but the mod said "yeah, it's in the PMs, take a look," so I must presume that generally, everyone only reads their own PM. Nhammen didn't know. Did you know? Even MissMaggot didn't know.

No I didn't read the details of each role this game as I already know what all the roles do, so I guess that is a good point.
and I never voted you because I wasn't confident in it being a scumslip (which was via paraphase "crap, I missed talking to my partner during pregame"), but I saw it as being possible.

From the other threads I've read I actually thought the pregame scumchat was standard, so I was kind of the opposite of you, but I have just found mini normal (1360) scum QT in which it wasn't allowed. Therefore that slip is now a town. I knew that it was definitely an indication of alignment. (and you new posts have indicated it is in fact town)

StrangerCoug · Post Post #97 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:09 am

In post 93, Nekoko wrote:
MOD: I would like to be replaced please

On it.

nhammen · Post Post #98 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:22 am

Mod: please prod Venrob in accordance with rule 13.
Mod: please replace McLucien18 in accordance with rule 13.

And the fact that we now have two replacements needed is why newbie games need to have the 3 week deadlines that they do.

nhammen · Post Post #99 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:35 am

In post 82, Cheery Dog wrote:I happen to find this bit of your post to be the scummiest sentence so far this game, but it's not enough for me to move my vote.

If it is the scummiest sentence so far, and your current vote is not random, why is it not enough to move your vote?

In post 85, ewo2 wrote:As an IC have you actually seen that in newbie games before? Day-start games, as far as I'm aware, don't work that way. It strikes me as odd that you'd publicly try to verify something that I'm sure you know is almost certainly not the case - the only reason I can see for doing so is to help Pasch out by verifying that the "scripted" allegations are false.

That is actually the ONLY way that I have seen newbie games run before. I looked up in this game's ruleset and did not see anything, so I asked the mod to be certain. Also, this allegation of yours is the longest reaching I have ever seen.

In post 85, ewo2 wrote:Also, your vote change seems ill-supported, and I'm not clear on what post 80 actually means.

My vote change is based off of a few things. First off, your reads have been repeatedly been perfectly aligned with the largest wagons in the game. Scum sometimes use this tactic as a way to hide from the town. They don't have to give real reads; all they have to do is agree with the town, and A) they don't have to put as much effort into looking townie, because they are following real townies, B) they don't have to put as much effort into faking reads, because the reads are all right there for them. Secondly, you gave a whole list of reasons why your read on wiibox became a nullread, and then used this as your reason for unvoting nekoko. This indicates to me that you forgot who you were actually voting for. And I do not see any townie forgetting who they are voting for like that.

As for post 80, I was showing Pasch why someone would not be concentrating on Venrob, using Pasch's own words.