Tales of You (Endgame)

[AngryPidgeon]

Tammy you really gotta stop doing that thing you do though. That thing where anytime someone calls you scum (or so much as says you aren't town) is a personal offense and you have to halt all activities and pursue that topic.

It caused a lot of nothing to happen this game.

Like whenever I wanted to just talk about nothing for a while but look like I was doing something, all I had to do was say "Tammy could be scum" and KABOOM conversation derailed.

[BROseidon]

I'm not gonna dig through your ISO for it, since I'm going on vacation and am going to spend my time in Europe enjoying, well, Europe. My flight starts boarding in 5 minutes.

Maybe you should try to, when you want to call someone bad/stupid/retarded/etc, not do that. I'm pretty sure you picked one of the tamer things you said about it, too.

[fferyllt]

Enjoy the hell out of Europe!

I'm going to Florida next week. Not a vacation. I'm not that masochistic.

[zMuffinMan]

i ctrl+Fed your ISO for stuff you said to me. that was what i said to you leading up to the cock in meat grinder comment. you're free to go find the apparently offensive stuff i said before or after that

[Tammy]

Also I feel like I was getting on the right track when I tried to approach the game differently and looked at the wagons. Maybe I would have even gotten a scum read right! Who knows, but I like to tell myself I would have.

You probably should have tried something like this a bit sooner. Having you in the game instead of shut down would have helped a lot. Maybe try to develop a tool that you can fall back on if you come across another game like this?

Yeah I know. it doesn't happen a whole lot, but.

[Cabd]

Muffin. Bro.

Room.

Not this room.

[Tammy]

I'm not gonna dig through your ISO for it, since I'm going on vacation and am going to spend my time in Europe enjoying, well, Europe. My flight starts boarding in 5 minutes.

Maybe you should try to, when you want to call someone bad/stupid/retarded/etc, not do that. I'm pretty sure you picked one of the tamer things you said about it, too.

Have fun!

[Ms Marangal]

Can we just not.

Most of us played a shit game, myself included. Just learn from it and move on. Parts of the game were toxic enough, and a good number of us contributed to that.

How about instead of saying shit like this, you hold people accountable to their actions?

Serious question.

When I said in my giant rant that "everyone who isn't standing up to mastin for her emotional manipulation is complicit in it," I was being completely serious.

Because everyone did play like shit (myself included) and ignoring stuff like this doesnt make yourself a better player overall. Ive lost my shit before, I know what its like to feel like youre being bullied but, at least 50% of the time, perceived intent isnt the actual intent. It's very easy to place blame onto other. Life is to short to be holding onto grudges, and (in my experienced) it feels quite a bit better to just let others believe what they want and not worry about it.

(and yes, mastin, that video is incredibly appropriate)

[Tammy]

Tammy you really gotta stop doing that thing you do though. That thing where anytime someone calls you scum (or so much as says you aren't town) is a personal offense and you have to halt all activities and pursue that topic.

It caused a lot of nothing to happen this game.

Like whenever I wanted to just talk about nothing for a while but look like I was doing something, all I had to do was say "Tammy could be scum" and KABOOM conversation derailed.

Yeah, I know, I'm working on it.

[Tammy]

Also I feel like I was getting on the right track when I tried to approach the game differently and looked at the wagons. Maybe I would have even gotten a scum read right! Who knows, but I like to tell myself I would have.

You probably should have tried something like this a bit sooner. Having you in the game instead of shut down would have helped a lot. Maybe try to develop a tool that you can fall back on if you come across another game like this?

Yeah I know. it doesn't happen a whole lot, but.

usually when I get lost a scum lynch will snap me out and give me something to solve. It just took me far too long to try something out and stop wallowing in paranoia and frustration.

[AngryPidgeon]

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

Spoiler: Things F-16 thinks about my game (for my reference, hence spoilered)

I found Penguin's posts on the whole to be extremely genuine and free-flowing. I explained this a long while ago in D1 but more recent events also pointed in the direction of Penguin being town. For example, her willingness to work with you in Post 263 in the neighborhood was super-town. I could see that she was somewhat frustrated at being consistently scumread and was trying very hard to make the discussion productive. It didn't feel like she was trying to placate you but more like genuinely trying to see your perspective if you assume Medea is town. I also liked her push on BRO D1. It came across as a very, forceful and direct attack which I find Penguin as scum unlikely to do. When Penguin mislynches players as scum, her attacks come across as weaker than her attacks as town and also the follow up on them is a lot less than her follow up as town. Her post 649 also gave me townvibes, in particular her read on BRO felt like she was taking responsibility for his lynch. Specifically, the "BRO needs rope" phrase is unlikely to come from Penguin as scum as it she is much more diplomatic and careful as scum. The thing that convinced me more than anything though was her strongarming the BRO lynch on D1 which is basically impossible to come from Penguin-scum. Her attempts to persuade Bazinga in Post 899 where she says "Mollie/bazinga, please consider how disjointed BRO's posts are when he gets grouchy. It's like he can't put on the grouchiness and legit-scum-hunt simultaneously" was too aggressive to come from scum. Not to mention that I was on the same page that she was about BRO D1 and I felt like the misread was reasonable especially considering that some aspects of BRO's play felt closer to his scum meta.

I played one game with scum-Penguin (Micro 295: Cowardly Hider) and even though I retracted the initial scumread that I had on her in that game, her flip in that game actually made me more sure that she was town here. I'll give you a quick summary of that game. ISO us and Penguin to follow along. Most of our initial posts were made by Nacho with me making just one post (our first, which was actually pretty boring) and checking out. We got attacked a lot for it from town (BRO in particular was going at us hard). Penguin then made Post 156. She defended us from BRO and bubbajack in a way that doesn't make sense at all and it betrayed that she had an underlying agenda. Also, specifically look at the careful, hesitant language she uses "Given F-16's posts, I'm also not seeing the tremendous disparity between BRO's thoughts and Ghatokaca's" which really reads as off on a gut level. Penguin is actually a very competent scum player. She is competent because she is good at making plans, strategizing and executing those plans while subtly pushing a scum agenda. In that game, she was trying to avoid our attention because she considered Nacho (and possibly me) to be a good player and didn't want to set off alarm bells for us. Hence the careful defense and it actually feels like she was walking around eggshells at that point which was what gave me a superstrong scumread on Penguin after which I post "tragic Penguin pictures" and yell about how I'd love to see Penguin getting lynched. She explains it away and convinces me to back off but it was that strong feeling I had which I note in Post 522 was the biggest red flag which I felt that I should have persued. I never even came close to getting that sort of feeling in this game.

In the first game I played with Penguin (Mini 1492: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets), we were both town and for the most part, I had her in my POE list as possible scum (although my read was for much lamer reasons like a perceived inconsistency in logic), but I had my doubts based on a meta-dive of her that I previously had done. A few key things that weren't present in her scumgames were her willingness to work with others and the reactions to being scumread felt different. Specifically, see Post 791 where she asks me that if I was wrong about her, how my reads would change. It felt genuine and the desire to work with me there actually felt similar to her neighborhood QT post trying to work with you. On the other hand, go back to the Cowardly Hider and see her reaction to being scumread there. Post 489 felt very placatory and her effort to work with me was much more superficial and she immediately retracts it in Post 518. As a caveat, I did pile on more rhetoric and images than in the Harry Potter game but the reaction of quickly retracting the read, and placating while remaining cool and calculated points to someone who is confident enough in their scumgame to plan her moves well. On the other hand, Penguin as town feels more natural, occasionally gets passionate about her reads or impending lynch and is more blunt while trying to work with other players. Her later pushes on Nacho and ffery were also extremely natural, very direct, moderately forceful and powerful. There are times when I feel that Penguin as town doesn't let on that she is scumreading someone but holds it back but it all flows later on. Her scumread on ffery was one such example where she brings it up long after ffery's initial case on her. Compare this with their scumread on us this game for which she had reasons reaching as far back as D1 which she later admits that she was holding back (based on my not getting back to her on Hanzo). As scum, she holds back in a different way where she is a little self-conscious (I am not sure how to phrase this better, read that Cowardly Hider post).

I played another game with Penguin where I was scum and she town (Micro 264: ETL's Resistance Mafia). I noticed the same intent to work with players that I noticed in the Harry Potter game. Specifically, look at her directness in Post 178 where she attacks Mastin and tries to convince ArcAngel9 of her scumread. This was one of the things I based my scumread of her in Cowardly Hider on because I profiled her towngame as direct, and to the point and the lack of it in Cowardly Hider turned out to be a red flag. The rest of her ISO also contain fairly direct and to-the-point interactions.

So, those were the games I've played with Penguin. I've also read some of her older scumgames. I've actually read quite a lot of her games. The notable takeaway is that Penguin doesn't strongarm lynches as scum and doesn't push with the same amount of confidence that she showed here. I think it is probably because she doesn't consider it to be optimal scum strategy to get too much blood on her hands as the game progresses. Penguin as scum is also not as aggressive with regard to working with other players nor is she as direct in her attacks as she has been here. Her working with Bazinga to secure a BRO lynch and the way she tried to convince people of her early townreads on us and Mala has a forcefulness to them that she probably intentionally avoids as scum. Her play here has a solidity and reliability that is generally only present in her towngames. Her later play D2 and beyond has the same intention of working with players and her D2 defense of us in Post 1610 also had the same conviction that she displays as town. She is slightly less confident in her reads D2 but that is a reasonable result from her top scumread flipping town. But I still see the same desire to work with players while asserting herself and her own reads both in the neighborhood and in the game thread. Tl,dr; Medea is town because Penguin is way too aggressive, took way too much responsibility for the BRO lynch, and cares about her opinions and her choices of lynches going through much, much more than she does as town.

So I need to be aggressive, reach out to any town reads I get, and not be diplomatic. Heh, I'll get right on that...yell at some people, buddy others.

I think pushing mastin might be my absolute best bet in light of that. Say I see scum-mastin and take the line that I fucking well recognize scum-mastin by this point and I damn well won't second-guess my read again. And she can tell me this isn't her scum game until the cows come home, but I'm not swallowing that after the last two scum-mastin games. The extra good thing there is that the more she appeals to me, the more I won't believe her. Plus no one expects me to be on the ball with reads anyways.

Actually F-16 hilariously nailed the fact that PA was actively trying to NOT play to her Wicked meta.

[BROseidon]

i ctrl+Fed your ISO for stuff you said to me. that was what i said to you leading up to the cock in meat grinder comment. you're free to go find the apparently offensive stuff i said before or after that

I read our ISO in duo, and am going to admit that I was an asshat there.

My b. Not sure what I was so angry about in retrospect.

[AngryPidgeon]

Or ya. I think I misspoke. TL;DR: PA WAS trying to cater to meta F-16 had on her and he actually was right about that.

[mastin2]

That breakdown was 100% real (granted, mastin basically handwaving it even though she also contributed hugely is also a problem).

Yes, and as I said before, I can't really have sympathy when, as far as I can tell? You broke down over thinking we were scum pushing for your lynch.

Both our slots were town.
I'm expected to be sorry for you imagining a demon? When said 'demon' is myself,

also

on the verge of a mental breakdown?
(Read the beginning of my posting in the PT, BROseidon. I described symptoms of what I went through this game. I think it was a mental breakdown; I'd love to see you tell me it wasn't.)

When I said in my giant rant that "everyone who isn't standing up to mastin for her emotional manipulation is complicit in it," I was being completely serious.

And again. I was town.
You scumread me erroneously. And I pushed you as scum.
You broke down.
I backed off the scumread, and said that you were imagining a threat. (You were.)
I suppose you could call the truth emotional manipulation...but I said nothing not true. You broke down. It was over an imagined threat. I was town. Rancid was town. It didn't help that I was also on the verge of breaking myself. It runs both ways. If you're allowed to get upset at how you were treated, then don't pretend I'm not for how you treated me.

You say I attacked you personally. Bluntly, I didn't. I attacked the player. Not the person. And when I had reason to not attack the player...I stopped attacking the player, and tried to work with the player...which you interpreted as me continuing to attack the person. I might not have been working with you the best I could, but see also:

me going through my own breakdown

.

if you weren't so arrogant about it, nobody would give two shits about your bad reads being a huge contributing factor in this loss
if youre going to get upset about people calling you out for being arrogant about having bad reads, then stop being fucking arrogant about your reads. problem fucking solved.

(Basically, this.)

Subject: Tales of You (Pick) Scum thread

Spoiler: Things F-16 thinks about my game (for my reference, hence spoilered)

I found Penguin's posts on the whole to be extremely genuine and free-flowing. I explained this a long while ago in D1 but more recent events also pointed in the direction of Penguin being town. For example, her willingness to work with you in Post 263 in the neighborhood was super-town. I could see that she was somewhat frustrated at being consistently scumread and was trying very hard to make the discussion productive. It didn't feel like she was trying to placate you but more like genuinely trying to see your perspective if you assume Medea is town. I also liked her push on BRO D1. It came across as a very, forceful and direct attack which I find Penguin as scum unlikely to do. When Penguin mislynches players as scum, her attacks come across as weaker than her attacks as town and also the follow up on them is a lot less than her follow up as town. Her post 649 also gave me townvibes, in particular her read on BRO felt like she was taking responsibility for his lynch. Specifically, the "BRO needs rope" phrase is unlikely to come from Penguin as scum as it she is much more diplomatic and careful as scum. The thing that convinced me more than anything though was her strongarming the BRO lynch on D1 which is basically impossible to come from Penguin-scum. Her attempts to persuade Bazinga in Post 899 where she says "Mollie/bazinga, please consider how disjointed BRO's posts are when he gets grouchy. It's like he can't put on the grouchiness and legit-scum-hunt simultaneously" was too aggressive to come from scum. Not to mention that I was on the same page that she was about BRO D1 and I felt like the misread was reasonable especially considering that some aspects of BRO's play felt closer to his scum meta.

I played one game with scum-Penguin (Micro 295: Cowardly Hider) and even though I retracted the initial scumread that I had on her in that game, her flip in that game actually made me more sure that she was town here. I'll give you a quick summary of that game. ISO us and Penguin to follow along. Most of our initial posts were made by Nacho with me making just one post (our first, which was actually pretty boring) and checking out. We got attacked a lot for it from town (BRO in particular was going at us hard). Penguin then made Post 156. She defended us from BRO and bubbajack in a way that doesn't make sense at all and it betrayed that she had an underlying agenda. Also, specifically look at the careful, hesitant language she uses "Given F-16's posts, I'm also not seeing the tremendous disparity between BRO's thoughts and Ghatokaca's" which really reads as off on a gut level. Penguin is actually a very competent scum player. She is competent because she is good at making plans, strategizing and executing those plans while subtly pushing a scum agenda. In that game, she was trying to avoid our attention because she considered Nacho (and possibly me) to be a good player and didn't want to set off alarm bells for us. Hence the careful defense and it actually feels like she was walking around eggshells at that point which was what gave me a superstrong scumread on Penguin after which I post "tragic Penguin pictures" and yell about how I'd love to see Penguin getting lynched. She explains it away and convinces me to back off but it was that strong feeling I had which I note in Post 522 was the biggest red flag which I felt that I should have persued. I never even came close to getting that sort of feeling in this game.

In the first game I played with Penguin (Mini 1492: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets), we were both town and for the most part, I had her in my POE list as possible scum (although my read was for much lamer reasons like a perceived inconsistency in logic), but I had my doubts based on a meta-dive of her that I previously had done. A few key things that weren't present in her scumgames were her willingness to work with others and the reactions to being scumread felt different. Specifically, see Post 791 where she asks me that if I was wrong about her, how my reads would change. It felt genuine and the desire to work with me there actually felt similar to her neighborhood QT post trying to work with you. On the other hand, go back to the Cowardly Hider and see her reaction to being scumread there. Post 489 felt very placatory and her effort to work with me was much more superficial and she immediately retracts it in Post 518. As a caveat, I did pile on more rhetoric and images than in the Harry Potter game but the reaction of quickly retracting the read, and placating while remaining cool and calculated points to someone who is confident enough in their scumgame to plan her moves well. On the other hand, Penguin as town feels more natural, occasionally gets passionate about her reads or impending lynch and is more blunt while trying to work with other players. Her later pushes on Nacho and ffery were also extremely natural, very direct, moderately forceful and powerful. There are times when I feel that Penguin as town doesn't let on that she is scumreading someone but holds it back but it all flows later on. Her scumread on ffery was one such example where she brings it up long after ffery's initial case on her. Compare this with their scumread on us this game for which she had reasons reaching as far back as D1 which she later admits that she was holding back (based on my not getting back to her on Hanzo). As scum, she holds back in a different way where she is a little self-conscious (I am not sure how to phrase this better, read that Cowardly Hider post).

I played another game with Penguin where I was scum and she town (Micro 264: ETL's Resistance Mafia). I noticed the same intent to work with players that I noticed in the Harry Potter game. Specifically, look at her directness in Post 178 where she attacks Mastin and tries to convince ArcAngel9 of her scumread. This was one of the things I based my scumread of her in Cowardly Hider on because I profiled her towngame as direct, and to the point and the lack of it in Cowardly Hider turned out to be a red flag. The rest of her ISO also contain fairly direct and to-the-point interactions.

So, those were the games I've played with Penguin. I've also read some of her older scumgames. I've actually read quite a lot of her games. The notable takeaway is that Penguin doesn't strongarm lynches as scum and doesn't push with the same amount of confidence that she showed here. I think it is probably because she doesn't consider it to be optimal scum strategy to get too much blood on her hands as the game progresses. Penguin as scum is also not as aggressive with regard to working with other players nor is she as direct in her attacks as she has been here. Her working with Bazinga to secure a BRO lynch and the way she tried to convince people of her early townreads on us and Mala has a forcefulness to them that she probably intentionally avoids as scum. Her play here has a solidity and reliability that is generally only present in her towngames. Her later play D2 and beyond has the same intention of working with players and her D2 defense of us in Post 1610 also had the same conviction that she displays as town. She is slightly less confident in her reads D2 but that is a reasonable result from her top scumread flipping town. But I still see the same desire to work with players while asserting herself and her own reads both in the neighborhood and in the game thread. Tl,dr; Medea is town because Penguin is way too aggressive, took way too much responsibility for the BRO lynch, and cares about her opinions and her choices of lynches going through much, much more than she does as town.

So I need to be aggressive, reach out to any town reads I get, and not be diplomatic. Heh, I'll get right on that...yell at some people, buddy others.

I think pushing mastin might be my absolute best bet in light of that. Say I see scum-mastin and take the line that I fucking well recognize scum-mastin by this point and I damn well won't second-guess my read again. And she can tell me this isn't her scum game until the cows come home, but I'm not swallowing that after the last two scum-mastin games. The extra good thing there is that the more she appeals to me, the more I won't believe her. Plus no one expects me to be on the ball with reads anyways.

Actually F-16 hilariously nailed the fact that PA was actively trying to NOT play to her Wicked meta.

I noticed.

[BROseidon]

mastin, the posting from you that I had issue with was the guilt-trippy "I really hope BRO's scum b/c if he's town oh god he's playing terribly" posts that you kept putting out. Like, I normally feel bad pushing lynches through, and my hyper-aggression is largely so that I can get lynches through without turning into a giant waffly mess. Those posts hit a particularly vulnerable spot on me.

[BROseidon]

Like, I'd probably be one of the most guilttrippable players on site if I didn't know that I'm easy as fuck to guilttrip and compensate for it accordingly.

[pirate mollie]

y'all need valium.

I cried when mastina was lynched.

I cheered when nacho was lynched.

that is all.

[mastin2]

mastin, the posting from you that I had issue with was the guilt-trippy "I really hope BRO's scum b/c if he's town oh god he's playing terribly" posts that you kept putting out.

Except they were 100% correct and you yourself even admitted they were?

You were playing terribly. I called you out on playing terribly.

You had issues with me stating the truth.

[BROseidon]

You're conflating what information was available given my PoV at different times.

In retrospect, you were correct.

At the time, I thought you were scum trying to use an underhanded tactic targeted right at my weak spot to get me off your back (and I figured that, given how similar we are in a lot of ways, could have easily figured out that I have a weak spot there)

[BROseidon]

In other words, even though objectively you were right, from my PoV at the time I had no way to know that, so it felt like something very different.

That's also why I'm not upset at you now about it, since it's not like you were setting out to get under my skin.

[AngryPidgeon]

Oh, my god. I am sick of ffery. How the FUCK does someone so delusionally believe in their reads that they don't even vote them when they are counterclaimed? Seriously?

Hence why I'm thinking she's scum

She's looking for a lot of excuses not to vote RBD.

[fferyllt]

Hilariously enough, I thought that your unshakeable faith in us being town meant that you saw what I see in Bork's play, meaning that you understand how I function as a hydra partner when my partner is having a breakout game as scum (which, for the record, in this case happened when bork was getting pretty fucking bored of mafia in general as shown by siteflake midgame) and you know that if my partner's playing off the fucking chain that I don't completely abandon them and tell everyone I'm going to drink shots for every time that you're called town.

bork did have a breakout scum game and he did play off the fucking chain.

I took notice!

[mastin2]

Like, I said you were playing badly.
Your posting post-game explicitly said that your early game was shit.
So I was explicitly saying something that

you agree with being true

.

'In retrospect' my ass. I knew I was correct at the time.

The thing about it is that you're continuing to always think the problem lies outside. You're continuing to think that it was something I did, when it was something you did at the time. Which you now know. But in the future, in the middle of the game, you're not going to act any differently. You're still going to think that it's something "I" (it can be anyone) did, rather than something you're doing. And when that game's over, you're going to go once again saying "In hindsight, it was on my end, but I had no way of knowing it was at the time".

Except yes you do.
By actually learning.
Like, this reminds me of the lectures I was on the receiving end of in my 2009 play.
When I actually started listening to them (took 'til 2011), I became a better player, because I actually DID stop making the same mistakes.

[AngryPidgeon]

There was nothing wrong with RBD faking a miller role TBH. I mean I guess old-school players would PL someone for that. I know I was on the inside looking out this game, but RBD just seems absurdly town to me. Everything they did.

[fferyllt]

Oh, my god. I am sick of ffery. How the FUCK does someone so delusionally believe in their reads that they don't even vote them when they are counterclaimed? Seriously?

Hence why I'm thinking she's scum

She's looking for a lot of excuses not to vote RBD.