Micro 834 : Vanilla 8-Ball : Game Over

[Irrelephant11]

NSG, why is Saudade town?

Still sticking with Gamma/Saudade as scum?

What?

At first I thought Jingle maybe really didn’t understand this post from Penguin

So do you legitimately think Suka may have forgotten that Gamma was the lynch yesterday and is still scumreading/claiming to scumread him? If so, why? What does that say about her alignment?

It was around here that I was like “lolwut”
‘Cause Penguin’s sarcastic questioning of Suka here made sense to me and was imo obviously coming from a place of sarcasm and “why haven’t your reads changed post flip”

You asked if she was scumreading Gamma with Saudade after Gamma flipped town. I don't know what the fuck that post is, and I'm trying to understand why you made it.

What did you glean from her reaction? What other possible reaction do you see coming from that question? Cause from where I stand that whole interaction reads as fake as hell.

Attempting to sort you is obnoxious? Fuck that noise.

VOTE: PP

Attempting to sort you is obnoxious? Fuck that noise.

VOTE: PP

This is so fake.

VOTE: Jingle

Suka tomorrow.

Okay. How is attempting to sort you, questioning your reads, or calling you out on ignoring/avoiding questions blatantly scum indicative?

How is refusing to answer to your reasoning town indicative?

Your scum is showing.

And then the rest of this was needless escalation of Jingle’s refusal to admit Penguin’s post + explanation for a post made perfect sense

[Irrelephant11]

Suka,

I have three questions in 842 you have not yet answered.
And two more in 845

[Irrelephant11]

I'm worried about Jingle's lack of paranoia re: Saudade.

Penguin I sorta thought this was a towny thought, and kinda non-partnery. Agree/disagree?

Yes this was not a hard read
I liked Suka’s point about Jingle’s lack of Saudade paranoia, but scum can easily point out what’s scummy about their partner
I’ve said before how Jingle’s read on Saudade felt more like TMI than finding an excuse to townread a partner

[Irrelephant11]

Are you kidding me? That's almost exclusively how I sort people.

Also wasn't entirely true, since I want Jingle's reason for not scum reading Suka today...so...yeah.

p-edit

Um...yeah.

Oh...ok.

What do you think about Suka?

NSG, why is Saudade town?

Still sticking with Gamma/Saudade as scum?

I don't understand why Gamma flip doesn't change your read.

You could assume. Assumptions aren't as strong as actual statements.

Suka/Jingle.

Calling it here. Back later.

Okay. How is attempting to sort you, questioning your reads, or calling you out on ignoring/avoiding questions blatantly scum indicative?

You weren't doing this.

Why Jingle over Saudade?

+1 for Suka being the partner.

I think these posts (and others) show internal consistency of reads, incredulity/sarcasm when it’s deserved, and also
-labeling Jingle/Suka as the scumteam and the lynching Jingle isn’t a very strong plan with this timing (maybe closer to lylo), especially when he could make the same scumteam call and try to lynch Suka
-If Jingle/Penguin is bussing it’s notable that Jingle escalates things so much while Penguin remains cool and collected while noting how Jingle has made himself obvscum. It doesn’t read like Penguin is part of a coordinated bussing effort

[PenguinPower]

VOTE: Suka

L-1 and all that.

[Suka]

I've already answered the questions, Irrelephant. I guess I'll try again.

What do you think of my explanation of my characterization of your post?

Your characterization of my first post today is wrong. I never questioned Enter's read on Jingle. I never questioned Enter's certainty in reading Penguin. And I wasn't exclusively trying to sort one player in that post (with one scum left, all reads are connected). To be clear, what I did was ask Enter for more information about why he townread Penguin. I thought the rest of Enter's reads were understandable from a town perspective. I understand why town would be paranoid of me (yes, town often get paranoid that other town are scum) and why town would be paranoid of NSG (in part because I have lingering paranoia about her that I have to actively fight with logic). What I don't understand is why town would townread Penguin for the reasons Enter gave. So that's where I started my questioning.

Suka, where’d your certainty of Saudade-scum go?

Your belief that I stopped scumreading Saudade at any point is inaccurate. He was a strong scumread. That said, we have a scum flip & a replacement so I'm not going to blindly vote Saudade's replacement without at least taking some time to reevaluate the entire game, including his slot. That's what I'm currently doing. But even then, the first thing I did today was ask his replacement a set of questions with the intent of getting a better grasp on his alignment. I was also trying to sort Penguin in that first post, which before you posted was the only plausible alternative to Enter as scum. I had you as town earlier because I thought the way you were defending me as non-partner with Jingle was a town tell (scum don't usually close off potential mislynches based on known scum flip), but then you completely ignored that fact today and voted me (scummy because selectively ignoring things to push a mislynch is scum's bread-and-butter).

Pedit: no, obviously not (also, like... are you expecting me to say yes?) If you feel I’m misrepresenting you, just tell me what I don’t understand, rather than call me a liar

For starters, I was making a comment in rhetorical form with the purpose of sorting you in ways that scum wouldn't easily respond to. I don't tell you what's wrong because I'm checking to see if you'll go back & correct the error on your own, a town trait that you haven't exhibited. If I just tell you what's wrong (which I'm obviously capable of doing), then I don't get the extra information of seeing what you do when called out.

Second, I never said you were lying. I said you were misinterpreting. I don't think you'd lie regardless of alignment. As town, you'd misinterpret because of actual error so I'd expect you to admit the error when called out on it. As scum, you'd misinterpret because of a narrow focus on faking a scumread & thus ignoring aspects of what I'm saying to distort the meaning of my posts. That's the issue I'm struggling with - are you just playing badly as town or are you selectively ignoring things to distort the meaning of my posts? Not an easy question for me to answer at this time.

Can I know anything about our past experiences so I can understand if these expectations of me are realistic at all

No, you can't know (this should have been obvious from silence).

Where are all your reads at now, and with what confidence?

I don't have a read on Penguin (confidence = 0). He hasn't helped me out in that regard, which makes the game quite frustrating from my perspective. I have to actively fight against scumreading him out of frustration, so I'm just going to trust NSG on his slot for now.

You have strong hints of town mixed with strong hints of scum & I have no idea what to say about that. And yes, town don't always know what to think about a player who looks both town/scum at the same time. If I had to guess, I'd say you're probably just bad town because I feel like you wouldn't have defended me as non-partner to Jingle as scum (it's actually a pretty big town tell).

Enter's probably just scum because Saudade was scum. I'm not as confident as I was before because I have strong paranoia about you & Penguin, and because Enter's decision to scumread NSG feels almost suicidal in a non-scummy way.


Did I miss anything? What else do you need answers?

[Suka]

VOTE: Enter

I don't think Enter should vote me in response to this. I'm guessing he will but if he's town he won't.

[Irrelephant11]

UNVOTE:

I’m not above 65% sure it’s Suka over Enter, and would rather not sit at L-1 while I try to figure it out. + I like this^ post
I like your explanation for why you asked Enter about Penguin. I think my original interpretation was a reasonable one, though, without being in your head, which is why I asked what you thought about my *explanation of* my characterization, which you have not yet answered.

I townread your willingness to base your read on me on the fact that you’re town, which I *think* scum are more reluctant to do. I still think my vote was justified at the time, as your entrance to the day and response to Enter was underwhelming and (though I understand your reasoning better now) felt like it was made to keep more lynch options open.

I have admitted I misunderstood your scumpool. You were not treating Enter like scum, so it wasn’t until I saw one or your more recent posts that I realized you still thought he might be scum.

Multiple players here seem to feel I’m playing badly which is annoying, especially because it’s mainly coming from replacements who didn’t have to deal with the frustrating lack of activity for much of D1 and D2 and which made this game very hard to sort. I’ve been on every wagon, yes, but that includes the scum wagon thank u

I think it’s very weird that you have no read of Penguin. Do you have experience with him at all? His process of catching Jingle out felt very natural imo, never felt to me like bussing (and given town’s inability to come together before last game day, why bus?)

I think I did have one or two more questions? Let me check

[Irrelephant11]

*I like 855

[Irrelephant11]

Oh yeah: why is my scumreading you this gameday shocking to you? I explicitly said last game day that I wanted Jingle over Saudade because you might be the partner. Why is it then scummy for me to continue into this day sorting between you and Enter?

[Irrelephant11]

I do wonder if Enter’s thought here as scum would be “maybe if I scumread consensus town, it’ll get me townread”

[Enter]

@NSG why would I need to last resort push you when the day opened w/ Penguin pushing Suka? This comes across as OMGUS-y.

@Irrelephant/Penguin pls unvote Suka for now.

P-Edit: thanks

[Suka]

I still think my vote was justified at the time, as your entrance to the day and response to Enter was underwhelming and (though I understand your reasoning better now) felt like it was made to keep more lynch options open.

How is asking Enter questions about his read on Penguin designed to keep lynch options open?

[Irrelephant11]

By causing him to doubt his Penguin read, re-framing Penguin’s successful push on scum as bussing
I’m not sure I still believe that’s what you were doing, but the fact that you only touched on his townread without questioning any of his scumreads made me think that you didn’t want him to have that strong townread w/o much care about him having other weaker reads

[Suka]

By causing him to doubt his Penguin read, re-framing Penguin’s successful push on scum as bussing
I’m not sure I still believe that’s what you were doing, but the fact that you only touched on his townread without questioning any of his scumreads made me think that you didn’t want him to have that strong townread w/o much care about him having other weaker reads

Okay, Irrelephant. I get where you're coming from in terms of "questioning townreads = scummy." You can be town for this despite misinterpreting me. As a general point, town question the reads they don't understand, without thinking about whether it's a townread/scumread. That distinction you're drawing wasn't even on my radar.

[Suka]

Oh yeah: why is my scumreading you this gameday shocking to you? I explicitly said last game day that I wanted Jingle over Saudade because you might be the partner. Why is it then scummy for me to continue into this day sorting between you and Enter?

Where'd you say that last game day? I thought you were pushing the idea that I was non-partner with Jingle.

[Irrelephant11]

1) this play is more likely to get info about Saudade’s alignment than voting Saudade would get about Jingle’s alignment
2) Jingle’s townread of Saudade feels a little like TMI (in a world in which you or someone I’m townreading is his partner)
3) Jingle/Penguin interactions were a very bad look for Jingle as I’ve said
4) Penguin asked me to

Point 2 shows I’m thinking of you as a possible Jingle partner and that I’m not townreading you really

I'm worried about Jingle's lack of paranoia re: Saudade.

Penguin I sorta thought this was a towny thought, and kinda non-partnery. Agree/disagree?

Is there a chance in hell nsg is scum here? Asking for a friend
Same question to all other players, actually. If we can rule nsg out as scum 100% then I think she should decide the lynch

Here I pointed out the reason I was leaning Saudade as scum over you

Suka why is your one post this game day “are you sure about your single townread?”

I think it’s either Suka or Enter
I was leaning Saudade but Enter seems townier than Suka in the entrances to this gameday

Penguin has like .01% scum equity (leading the Jingle wagon) and NSG has like 1% scum equity (chose the Jingle wagon over the Saudade wagon last game day) after the Jingle flip

Here shows where I flipped to scumreading you more than Saudade/Enter

[Enter]

I'm starting to really dislike the Suka lynch..


VOTE: NSG


you come back after idk how long of inactivity and all of a sudden you're only scum read is the person trying to push your lynch w/ no surrounding reads and where is there precedence for you scum reading this slot?

You seem to just come in and say something that seems mildly towny every once in a while "oh darn, really wish we hadn't flipped GE" or post some theory-related question about game thread. I really didn't like the way your vote on Jingle happened at day end yesterday, the pinto push was disgusting, and your read is just "poe".

@relly/PP/Suka, please seriously consider NSG. Very rarely have I found that it's the obvious lynch, and twice this game that's proven true. I haven't seen anything outright scummy from Suka like I've seen Jingle do (his "fingers crossed" with the hammer on GE was ridiculous) the scumreads on him seem mostly due to misunderstandings and the like.

[Suka]

Point 2 shows I’m thinking of you as a possible Jingle partner and that I’m not townreading you really

I didn't interpret this as you saying I'm scum? I saw it as you agreeing with my point that Jingle's townread on Saudade felt fake (i.e. coming from an informed perspective). That's what "TMI" means, after all. The read comes from an informed perspective. If Jingle townread Saudade knowing that Saudade was scum, it's still "TMI."

But again, where'd you expressly scumread me on D3, as you claim to have done?

[Suka]

In 676, Irrelephant, you seem to suggest that I'm so town that maybe NSG is scum... The evidence says you were townreading me on D3. Your changed your read at the start of D4 and that's what pinged me.

[Suka]

I guess 670 shows slight paranoia about me but 676 clears that up quite strongly. So yeah, I didn't expect you to vote me after seeing Jingle's flip.

[Irrelephant11]

Again, you’re overvaluing the strength of my townread on you in 676. It wasn’t “never lynch Suka, look at this townclearing moment” it was “here’s a single point in Suka’s favor, unless you convince me it shouldn’t be one”
And then the NSG thought had literally nothing to do with the thought about you (Saudade was still the most likely Jingle partner, not you or nsg) - I was separately wondering if I should let NSG decide the lynch, so I posted that.

670 is my “express scumread” (not sure where I claim to have expressly scumread you. Are you now intentionally misreading me?). It’s more like a *not townread* than anything else, but I definitely didn’t have anything at that time that would rule you out as Jungle’s partner. I still don’t.

Jingle townreading Saudade as scum wouldn’t be TMI - TMI means the read is flat and shallow because it’s not thought-through; it just is. It comes from being informed and goes unquestioned because that’s easier than being paranoid. Scum usually fake paranoia about their partner at least occasionally, which is the difference.


During the last night phase I also contemplated how Penguin has a stronger grasp on the game than me and has lead the only successful scum lynch - that’s part of why I came into this game day with a different frame of mind regarding your alignment

[Irrelephant11]

I’m now 65% that it’s Enter.
@me if you disagree, Penguin

Suka, please towncase NSG for Enter

[PenguinPower]

I'm fine lynching Enter today as long as we can lynch Suka next if it's not Enter.

[Suka]

Suka, please towncase NSG for Enter

That, I won't do.