Mini #717 - Alpha Centauri Smalltown (Game Over!)

[Gremwell]

I understand, my above post was directed at Occam in response to this.

as for the BP being more dangerous as scum it's nonsense, aside from the vig and sk who wouldn't likely target him, its worthless for scum aside from the argument that it is such an asset for the town.

You're wrong.

[Occam]

Why the hell would scum worry about L-1 everyone person on this site talks to death before lynching. So any scum who is concerned on page 3 about being at L-1 is laughable. Townie on the other hand worry about the quick hammer that scum is known to pull. Yes it can out a scum but in the mean time talks stop and kills happen.

There are a number of things wrong with this. One is that the hammer tell is completely rooted in WIFOM. Two is that there are far fewer scum than town, and townies can be just as "known to pull" a hammer as scum, so scum have more to lose. Three is that you say "Any scum who is concerned about being at L-1 is laughable can be just as easily applied to a town player, so that's BS.

Really I see no case you brought forth against me. All you have done is say I'm misrep. I see no other reason for that vote.

alright then could you kindly explain to me how a role who's sole power is to be immune to a night kill makes it more dangerous than normal to be in the hands of the group doing the most night killing.

Dude - the scum is doing ONE THIRD of the nightkilling. That's one of three kills. How is that the most night killing? Kindly, making it impossible to night kill a scum is a really bad thing for what I consider obvious reasons.

Really I see no case you brought forth against me. All you have done is say I'm misrep. I see no other reason for that vote.

Please read the game then. I've been calling you out since the game started because you've been misrepping and using bullshit arguments against me all game. I'll lay them out for your convenience:

1. I voted for you once already:

But if we're talking about revealing the obvious, how about the fact that Farside basically ruined any chance we had at executing her plan by bringing it up on day one and basically putting a target on the SS?

unvote - vote: farside

2. You feigned ignorance about there being an SK:

Did I miss something on page one. I see nothing about a SK in the game. Is it normal for a SK in small town? I ask because the assumption there is a SK makes my head hurt.

immediately made me think you were probably the SK, especially since you attempted to make me look bad for "assuming" there was an SK when it was clearly stated on the first page.

3. You gave "5 reasons" for my explaining my vote, and myself and Cephrir noted:

As Ceph said you cited the same reason worded 5 different ways.

4. You have misrepped me several times and used an argument regarding self-lynching to attempt (and fail) to prove that SELF-VOTING is anti-town.

[Occam]

BP can be scum, SK or townie in this set up. However it is usaullay an anti group that would like to have the BP lynched.

Misrepped yet again as I've clearly stated more than once that I DIDN'T want him lynched.

For christ's sake...

[Occam]

in fact the worst case scenario would be a BP SK, not scum

Plus how is a BP SK not a really really bad thing? wtf...

[farside22]

Really I see no case you brought forth against me. All you have done is say I'm misrep. I see no other reason for that vote.

Please read the game then. I've been calling you out since the game started because you've been misrepping and using bullshit arguments against me all game. I'll lay them out for your convenience:

1. I voted for you once already:

But if we're talking about revealing the obvious, how about the fact that Farside basically ruined any chance we had at executing her plan by bringing it up on day one and basically putting a target on the SS?

unvote - vote: farside

Funny I brought this up and you liked the idea on one page but when you are critisized for your comment you bring this up as a shield.

2. You feigned ignorance about there being an SK:

Did I miss something on page one. I see nothing about a SK in the game. Is it normal for a SK in small town? I ask because the assumption there is a SK makes my head hurt.

I explained this already. Note you ignored by reason and are calling it feigned ignorance. How is this really scummy act?

immediately made me think you were probably the SK, especially since you attempted to make me look bad for "assuming" there was an SK when it was clearly stated on the first page.

Yay or I looked at the frong page as I said and didn't notice the open roles for each faction.

3. You gave "5 reasons" for my explaining my vote, and myself and Cephrir noted:

As Ceph said you cited the same reason worded 5 different ways.

Showed you were talking, talking and talking about how BP is useless then after more pressure brought up that you got conversation started by making said comment. Funny not mentioned earlier or the number of times you called BP useless

4. You have misrepped me several times and used an argument regarding self-lynching to attempt (and fail) to prove that SELF-VOTING is anti-town.

Once again how is self voting not anti town. I showed different people stating how it is bad for the town and can lead to a lynch. What part of that do you keep missing or should I say dismissing.

All my points on why L-1 for town is worse then for scum can't be just WIFOM because this site proves that no people like to talk to death. Scum know it. Only people I ever seen do a quick hammer was scum. Proff. Look at every game and tell me a townie that did it. Anything else you wish to dismiss?

[Gremwell]

in fact the

worst case scenario would be a BP SK

, not scum

Plus how is a BP SK not a really really bad thing? wtf...

bolded for your convenience

[Occam]

Funny I brought this up and you liked the idea on one page but when you are critisized for your comment you bring this up as a shield.

Yeah, time passed and I realized that what you did was actually bad. Sorry.

I explained this already. Note you ignored by reason and are calling it feigned ignorance. How is this really scummy act?

Because, like I said, you tried to make me look bad with it, and you were wrong. You saying it wasn't feigned doesn't mean it wasn't.

Showed you were talking, talking and talking about how BP is useless then after more pressure brought up that you got conversation started by making said comment. Funny not mentioned earlier or the number of times you called BP useless

Yeah, I said that same thing five times. Clearly I believed it. I still have been calling and still will call the BP role more useless than any of the other roles for the town and quite dangerous for the scum. That hasn't changed, and it's a theory discussion, so if you disagree, that doesn't make me scum.

Once again how is self voting not anti town. I showed different people stating how it is bad for the town and can lead to a lynch. What part of that do you keep missing or should I say dismissing.

The point you brought up doesn't apply because it was about self-lynching, plain and simple. Bring me some evidence of self-VOTING being anti-town.... then we'll talk. If you do, I'll bring some evidence of it being protown, and then we can agree that it's a nulltell.

All my points on why L-1 for town is worse then for scum can't be just WIFOM because this site proves that no people like to talk to death. Scum know it. Only people I ever seen do a quick hammer was scum. Proff. Look at every game and tell me a townie that did it. Anything else you wish to dismiss?

You're serious? You're actually claiming that ONLY SCUM quickhammer on DAY ONE? That's completely absurd. You're stretched thin now, eh? Yes, I dismiss almost everything you've said as invalid. Here's another thing - NOBODY HAMMERED. Charter unvoted quickly, then so did I. There wasn't a quick hammer so there's nothing to talk about in that respect. Your point is built 100% on WIFOM that didn't even happen.

@Grem -

Yes, SK being BP is the worst case scenario. But you seem to be trying to say that BP is scum isn't bad? Why? A scum with BP is dangerous for the same reason that an SK with BP is dangerous. I guess I'm missing your point.

[Cephrir]

Obviously BP is not useless. If he plays a good protown game he can't be taken out. Yes, it is probably one of the weaker roles; I still don't get why that would automatically make him a lynch target.

Farside, those 5 reasons are basically the same reason a lot of times. #5 isn't even a reason to vote someone. Occam just voted and then was forced to defend his vote.

As Cephrr is only on three.

Unvote

Vote: Cephrir

Why?

Your bandwagoning.

And you don't believe my defense because....?

charter: There has to be more to it than that, you can't just say "meta" and expect that to be a legitimate reason to suspect someone.

I don't understand why anyone is voting for farside. Occam just seems to be getting PO'd and considering it a case. Glorified OMGUS, basically. Also, he's 100% wrong about selfvoting; it is always aways always antitown. Always. Did I mention always?

Arguing that it's protown suggests to me that you don't really know what's meant by antitown and protown, Occam. Just because a townie does something does not mean it

helps the town.

And townie quickhammer do happen, unfortunately.

You feigned ignorance about there being an SK:

This is just stupid. Farside was probably not aware there was an SK, or she is the SK and is being stupid, but that's not nearly as likely as you think it is just based on her apparently not knowing there was one. I don't think this would really benefit any alignment and there's not really a reason she'd have done that.

[farside22]

Once again how is self voting not anti town. I showed different people stating how it is bad for the town and can lead to a lynch. What part of that do you keep missing or should I say dismissing.

The point you brought up doesn't apply because it was about self-lynching, plain and simple. Bring me some evidence of self-VOTING being anti-town.... then we'll talk. If you do, I'll bring some evidence of it being protown, and then we can agree that it's a nulltell.

Self-voting in the random stage is anti-town, and therefore scummy (basically what dasquian said)

Later on, its even more anti-town.

I'm not sure how individual people define "anti-town," but I would argue that by its very nature, an "anti-town play" is something that is hurtful to the town('s chances of winning). Except in VERY RARE situations, self-voting accomplishes nothing beneficial for the town. Thus, anti-town play is more benficial for scums than pro-town play. Thus, theoretically, scums are significantly more likely to exhibit anti-town play.

I got two here for you to ponder on. Show how self voting is not anti town now.

[Occam]

Also, he's 100% wrong about selfvoting; it is always aways always antitown. Always. Did I mention always?

Dead wrong.

Arguing that it's protown suggests to me that you don't really know what's meant by antitown and protown, Occam. Just because a townie does something does not mean it helps the town.

I said it was null or neutral. READ.

I got two here for you to ponder on. Show how self voting is not anti town now.

Do you want examples from outside games? If so I do too. SELF-VOTING examples. Not self-lynching examples. I'll find you some examples where self-voting wasn't ant-town when you show me some examples where it was anti-town. Not neutral, but actually ANTI-town.

NOTE: I do not claim that self-voting is protown - I claim that it is neutral, so don't waste my time with examples where its not explicitly anti-town, please.

[farside22]

I love how occam just ingores the quotes when they state explicately self voting in the comment and not self lynching. Is that what you keep doing just ignore things and say it says something it does not.

[Occam]

Here's a few examples to back up my claim that self-voting is not anti-town:

In a Mafia Discussion thread entitled "Self-voting: Is it always a bad idea?

I do not agree, however, with the people who think that a townie should always play to keep themselves alive. In my opinion, a vanilla townie shouldn't care about being lynched in the early game (the information gained from the bandwagon far outweighs the loss of a townie, especially if the town plays properly), since the town's top priority is to kill the scum (NOT to survive).

self voting is alright with me.

Self Voting is great. It's fun seeing every time I start a new game how many ways people can react to such a harmless vote

I self-voted as town in Newbie 254 on Day Two (though it was not the hammer). My reason for doing so was that I replaced into that game on Day One and my predecessor had played a fairly scummy game so far. Things were drawing to a close for that day and I knew that despite doing my best to change people's opinion, going into the endgame with four players, one of whom was me in a rather precarious situation was less preferable than going into endgame with three and having suspicions on me no longer an issue.

Now that I'm a bit more experienced, I think I might have been able to get out of that situation without it being necessary to self-vote, but at the time and given that it was my first game I felt it was best for the town to remove myself from the equasion. Town did win in the end, so I guess it wasn't too horrible.

I'm not sure if it was the correct thing to do, but it certainly wasn't so strategically unsound that it warranted a beating around the head (at least not in my opinion).

In Mini 486, a D1 self-vote by Nelly632 was bandwagoned upon by a number of people until he unvoted and claimed vanilla.

Anyway, I was a dayvig-mason and I decided that it seemed strange for scum to do what Nelly had done and, thus, he was most likely town. On that basis, I went ahead and began interrogating Oman, who was one of the wagoners, figuring it was likely that one/some were scum. Oman, who turned out to be mafia, made a fatal slip in response to something I had said and I dayvigged him, D1.

So, yeah, self-voting is not always a bad idea (though this particular example depended on a lot of luck).

THIS IS KEY:

Self-voting early is a deliberately provocative act. Sometimes a deliberately provocative act can generate useful discussion, however making yourself easy to attack will mean it's easier for scum to attack you in a way which blends in with how the town attacks you. As such DPAs more often lead to noise and confusion, although self-voting is not really any more egregious than any other DPA.

THIS IS ALSO KEY:

I voted for myself in a Newbie I was in with Thesp because I wanted to emphasise the point that being at L-2 on the first couple of pages wasn't something to be scared about and certainly wasn't worth the big deal some of that town were making out of it. I had suspicions that at least one of those people going crazy about anyone placing a second vote was opportunistic scum and so I decided to put an end to it with a typical baiting of the scum along the lines of "come on, quicklynch me and out yourselves, hopefully we can wrap this up before teatime".

Unfortunately I was lynched, though probably through other elements of sub-optimal play on my part and not specifically for the self-vote. So while I wouldn't take self-voting in the RVS as meaning anything in particular, I know some people will go potty about it and see it as a much bigger scumtell than it probably is.

Note that the above is VERY selective quoting. There are plenty of experienced players who completely disagree and think self-voting is bad, all the time. But that's the POINT. It's NEUTRAL by virtue of the fact that it's sometimes good, sometimes terrible, and sometimes neither. People's OPINIONS don't change that. What farside and cephrir are putting forth are OPINIONS presumably based on personal experience. As evidenced by what I've cited above, it ALL DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION, and in the context of THIS GAME, it was not anti-town. It was a directive intended to achieve a very simple objective - namely, ending the unfounded, quickly forming wagon on me. I want to you all to note that so we can move past this ridiculousness and lynch farside.

Yes, I want farside lynched. That is why my vote is on her.

[farside22]

Most of the ones you brought up where those who are vanilla town. This game has no vanilla. Second the key points. One was a late game I'm screwed type comment the first comment is people who self vote during the random phase. None of which you did. The I self votes are from people who self vote as meta and don't care. Do you have meta that you self vote?
In conclusion self voting is anti town.
Al your case is me telling you it's anti town. I also pointed out your inconsistancy from saying my idea is cool to voting for me for said idea.
Placing a vote on a BP stating that it is a useless role as a reason and thinking it's a good reason to vote.
Your knee jerk reaction to my attacks. Also charter's unvote is noted as more of something I suspect a scum buddy to help out his scum buddy. So don't act all look at what charcter did attitude.

As for scum that hammer check out Newbie 669 and Sens quick hammer on a claimed doc. Then show me a game where town quick hammered.

[Occam]

EBWOP:

Here's a few examples to back up my claim that self-voting is not

inherently and always

anti-town:

(Obviously it CAN be).

[Occam]

Most of the ones you brought up where those who are vanilla town. This game has no vanilla. Second the key points. One was a late game I'm screwed type comment the first comment is people who self vote during the random phase. None of which you did. The I self votes are from people who self vote as meta and don't care. Do you have meta that you self vote?
In conclusion self voting is anti town.

How in gods name did you draw that conclusion from that paragraph?

I like pie. I like beer. In conclusion I have pet donkey.

Al your case is me telling you it's anti town. I also pointed out your inconsistancy from saying my idea is cool to voting for me for said idea.

Yeah I changed my mind. Not a scumtell. Called thinking about it.

Placing a vote on a BP stating that it is a useless role as a reason and thinking it's a good reason to vote.

Right, to start discussion, which I said, and which it did.

Your knee jerk reaction to my attacks. Also charter's unvote is noted as more of something I suspect a scum buddy to help out his scum buddy. So don't act all look at what charcter did attitude.

Um. I reacted reasonably to you attacking. That's what you're supposed to do in this game. Knee jerk my ass. Also, charter acted reasonably. You aren't.

As for scum that hammer check out Newbie 669 and Sens quick hammer on a claimed doc. Then show me a game where town quick hammered.

One example. You're saying something is universally true because you have one example where it happened. God. Even Cephrir disagrees with you on that one.

The rules of this game aren't made up of what you've seen and done. There's a lot more to it than that and you should realize that.

[Occam]

Second the key points. One was a late game I'm screwed type comment the first comment is people who self vote during the random phase. None of which you did. The I self votes are from people who self vote as meta and don't care. Do you have meta that you self vote?

Just to clarify why you can't draw the "self-voting is anti-town" conclusion you made is wrong:

1. My whole point was that it isn't ALWAYS anti-town, so admit it. I want to hear you say it.
2. Of course I don't have that meta. I don't have a meta at all.
3. I also want you to realize and admit that my self-vote in this game was not anti-town.

[farside22]

Second the key points. One was a late game I'm screwed type comment the first comment is people who self vote during the random phase. None of which you did. The I self votes are from people who self vote as meta and don't care. Do you have meta that you self vote?

Just to clarify why you can't draw the "self-voting is anti-town" conclusion you made is wrong:

1. My whole point was that it isn't ALWAYS anti-town, so admit it. I want to hear you say it.
2. Of course I don't have that meta. I don't have a meta at all.
3. I also want you to realize and admit that my self-vote in this game was not anti-town.

1. never
2. only people with meta get away with it. Nat always self votes but it's during the random stage.
3. never

Yay! Call me stubborn but the timing is way suspicious.
Good do I really have to go to every freakin game where scum quick hammered to make you happy with my point? Seriously.

mutters
farside do this. farside do that. farside you suck.

[Occam]

1. never
2. only people with meta get away with it. Nat always self votes but it's during the random stage.
3. never

And here we see that farside is unable to accept overarching points and can only exist in her own universe. Clearly she's too close-minded to convince and accept that she's wrong. There ARE instances where self-voting is NOT anti-town and that's a FACT, like GRAVITY. I provided examples. You noted those examples. Those were instances where it wasn't anti-town, and my WHOLE POINT was that it is not an inherently anti-town act.

I don't mean to attack you personally but YOU are wrong and as such YOU are what I must attack. You aren't supporting or putting forth an accurate point of view, you're attempting to convince people of something that is completely unfounded and based solely on the fact that you can't accept that you're wrong about something.

Yay! Call me stubborn but the timing is way suspicious.
Good do I really have to go to every freakin game where scum quick hammered to make you happy with my point? Seriously.

The timing of what was suspicious? That's the only time I would have done it. I wouldn't have self-hammered because I agree that self-HAMMERING is anti-town, but not self-voting.

[Occam]

@farside:

2. only people with meta get away with it. Nat always self votes but it's during the random stage.

Do you allow people to get away with things based on meta? That would tell me a lot about what kind of player/scumhunter you are. A lot.

[farside22]

@farside:

2. only people with meta get away with it. Nat always self votes but it's during the random stage.

Do you allow people to get away with things based on meta? That would tell me a lot about what kind of player/scumhunter you are. A lot.

Not every player has meta. People who believe that every player has a meta is a wrong. However there are some players (IE: few) that what they do they will do in every game because that is the type of player they want to be or are. So for those players that do act like that, Yes. For those who are inconsistant, No.

[Cephrir]

I do not claim that self-voting is protown

O RLY?

Bring me some evidence of self-VOTING being anti-town.... then we'll talk. If you do, I'll bring some evidence of it being protown

Anyway, there wasn't much of anything special about that situation that would make a selfvote helpful. That it's derailed the conversation so far is not particularly protown.

And here we see that farside is unable to accept overarching points and can only exist in her own universe. Clearly she's too close-minded to convince and accept that she's wrong. There ARE instances where self-voting is NOT anti-town and that's a FACT, like GRAVITY. I provided examples. You noted those examples. Those were instances where it wasn't anti-town, and my WHOLE POINT was that it is not an inherently anti-town act.

I feel the need to point out that this is unnecessarily overdramatic.

You mentioned how farside's argument is just an opinion, but you seem to think your opinion is fact.

This whole discussion is mostly irrelevant. It doesn't even matter who's right, and the fact that you're voting for each other over it seems pretty ridiculous to me.

[Occam]

Bring me some evidence of self-VOTING being anti-town.... then we'll talk. If you do, I'll bring some evidence of it being protown

Yeah, that was an accident. You know I meant neutral since I said it so so so many other times.

Anyway, there wasn't much of anything special about that situation that would make a selfvote helpful. That it's derailed the conversation so far is not particularly protown.

I wasn't that helpful. It wasn't protown. It also wasn't anti-town. It was neutral. It would have been anti-town if I'd hammered, but I think it would have been anti-town for me to not put myself at L-1 there, too. That wagon was totally out of control stupid.

You mentioned how farside's argument is just an opinion, but you seem to think your opinion is fact.

It IS fact. That's the thing - mine's not an opinion. It's a fact that there are times that self-voting has not been anti-town. I don't see how you can dispute that without being ignorant.

This whole discussion is mostly irrelevant. It doesn't even matter who's right, and the fact that you're voting for each other over it seems pretty ridiculous to me.

I agree that its irrelevant. It's a theory discussion and I'm trying to get past it by making farside realize it wasn't an anti-town action, but she won't accept that.

I don't agree that I should remove my vote from farside. I had it on there for the reasons I stated, so I'm not voting her over that.

[Oman]

Occam lynch is full of fail. Even if he is scum (though I recon he's floundering town), its for really really bad reasons.

Anyway, stop with all this *rolleyes* at you. No *rolleyes* at you bullshit, it doesn't get us anywhere.

As a town we're letting people like Gremwell and monkeyman get through the net. Not to mention charter is a dangerous bastard right now. I don't think a lot of you grasp the gravity of all of this.

I'll try to fully knock this on its arse tonight with a fantastic post

[iamausername]

"Richard Baxton piloted his Recon Rover into a fungal vortex and held off four waves of mind worms, saving an entire colony. We immediately purchased his identity manifests and repackaged him into the Recon Rover Rick character with a multi-tiered media campaign: televids, touchbooks, holos, psi-tours--the works. People need heroes. They don't need to know how he died clawing his eyes out, screaming for mercy. The real story would just hurt sales, and dampen the spirits of our customers.

-- "Mythology for Profit"
Morgan Stellartots Keynote Speech

-=Vote Count #5=-

Cephrir (3) - Gremwell, Oman, Empking
Occam (3) - MonkeyMan576, farside22, Drunken Piper
farside22 (2) - charter, Occam
Oman (1) - Cephrir

Not Voting (3) - christiano drago, Crazy, MacavityLock

7 to lynch.

[Empking]

As a town we're letting people like Gremwell and monkeyman get through the net. D

In your own words, what have they done that's scummy.