Test 1, fight 1 -- Mojo vs. Yaw

[Yaw]

The sun is high as you walk into the centre of the arena for your first battle in the tournament. You wait through your introduction and the lukewarm cheers, eager to find out who your opponent will be.

As the announcer's voice fades into silence, you turn back to the entrance to see an Elf approaching. He stands about 5'9", thin and finely muscled. He is wearing loose grey cloth that affords him ease of movement, with a trapezoidal buckler strapped to his left forearm, covering it from wrist to elbow like an exaggerated gauntlet. As he comes closer, you can see his light brown hair is braided into thin ropes, and there is a piercing look in his green eyes. The announcer introduces him as Oduro bel'Anath to the same smattering of applause you received. He draws a thin sabre and waits for the battle to begin...

[Mojo]

This is my charecter:
http://dev.pompa.co.il/ranisstuff/VorMcDoogel.dwt

Vor was already in the arena, with both of his spears drawn when bel'Anath entered the arena.
Now he is waiting to see if he has a chance to make the first move.

[Yaw]

Damn formatting. I'm copying in your sheet below, Mojo, because I actually have to be able to read it.

Vor McDoogel
Race: Slith

Description: With about 6'7 of muscles, Vor is a fierce fighter. He specialize both in polearms and swords. He uses 2 spears as main weapon, but also carries a two-handed sword with him. Vor is usually covered from head to toe with a full platemail. Although it slows him down, it gives him very good protection. Through Vor's helmet notches you can see his yellowy red eyes, staring at you, trying to see where are the week spots of your armor.

ATTRIBUTES (35):

EMP : 1 (2)
CHR: 1 (3)
ACU: 3
REA: 3
STR: 9 (7)
CRD: 9 (7)
POW: 5 (4)
PUR: 7 (6)

Skills (15):
Axes; Polearms (STR): 4
Evasion (CRD): 4
Observation(ACU): 4
Swords(STR): 3

Inventory:
2 Spears
Two-handed sword
A banana

hmph. This looks like an optimized character.

Reaction check:
Oduro -- 8
Vor -- 15

Vor goes first.

[Mojo]

My right hand (my strong arm) attack is a normal attack.
My left hand attack will be a disarm attempt.

[Yaw]

Vor attack right:

Vor -- 15
Oduro -- 17

Attack fails

Vor attack left:
Vor -- 19
Oduro -- 19

Attack fails

Oduro attack:
Oduro -- 17
Vor -- 20

Attack fails

No damage this round.

[Mojo]

First to attack was Vor with some quick maneuvering of his right arm.
Unluckly for him, he wasn't as quick as Oduro.
A stab to the right, a cut to the left, nothing he was doing could hit Oduro.
"Stop jumping ya' little elf"
"I can't hear you", said Oduro, "I think your sound waves are too slow for me".

And then came a left arm blow. It was somewhat clear that it was intended to go to Oduro hands, but it was way too slow, and way too ovious to hit anything except Odoru's buckler.

Then came some cutting attacks from Odoru.
"So you can attack after all" said Vor.
"I specialize in slaying ugly monsters", said Odoru, "And lucky for me, we have one here right now".
"Grrrr" said Vor.
SLASH... SLASH... STAB... STAB... but he just couldn't hit the mighty Vor ( ).

And then, after a couple of minuets, there was nothing on the ground but some sweat. You could see in their eyes that they were getting tired, that is if you could see their eyes, but you can't, because you're sitting in the crowd.

Both of the fighters were standing still again, observing each other moves to see if they can find an openning for their next attack.

[Mojo]

I'm going to attack with both hands.

[Yaw]

Oduro Focus check:

Oduro -- 11 < 12

Focus check fails

Vor attack right:

Vor -- 18
Oduro -- 17

Attack successful.
2 damage.

Vor attack left:
Vor -- 19
Oduro -- 19

Attack fails.

Oduro attack:
Oduro -- 10
Vor -- 23

Attack fails.

[Mojo]

And the battle continues.
It seems that Odoru tried to concentrate a bit before his next attack, but Vor's constant "Grrr"s and "Get over here you little..." got in his way of doing so.

Vor goes to the attack.

STAB...

and Oduro is hit in the leg, but not too seriously it seems because he managed to dodge all of Vor's next attacks.
"You got lucky this time, but it won't happen again" Oduro strains between the attack.
"Oh yeah" Vor replies while he swings his spear, "why are you so sure" he says while he misses again.

Then Oduro goes to the attack, but he trips over his loose cloth before he can get a stirke at Vor.

"Fall, like a leaf in the............. fall" says Vor while he charges for his next attack.



Next round I want to throw the first spear and attack with the second.

[Yaw]

Oduro Focus check:

Oduro -- 14 > 12

Focus check successful.

Vor attack right (thrown):

Vor -- 17
Oduro -- 15

Attack successful
2 damage

Vor attack left:
Vor -- 19
Oduro -- 15

Attack successful
2 damage

Oduro attack:
Oduro -- 11
Vor -- 15

Attack fails

Were this a real battle, I'd surrender it here.

[Mojo]

Before Oduro could get up from the floor, he was struck by something that was fast as lightning, and should have been just as deadly if it would have hit Oduro's chest and not his leg.

Oduro get's up with a spear in his leg, and before he could get it out, he's

STABBED

in the arm.

"Is that all you got?" Vor says.
"You're about to see what I got" Oduro yells.

Oduro storms at Vor.
SLASH... and Vor dodges.
STAB... and Vor Laughs.
CUT... and Vor eats his bannana.

"You can't win this one elf". Vor says with a full mouth.


Next round I want to throw my spear, and draw my two-handed sword.

[Yaw]

Oduro Focus check:

Oduro -- 7 < 12

Focus check fails

Vor attack (thrown):

Vor -- 21
Oduro -- 19

Attack successful
2 damage

Oduro attack:
Oduro -- 18
Vor -- 22

Attack fails

[Mojo]

"You were lucky last time you threw that thing you call a spear at me".

"Really?" Vor says while he ready his spear for a threw.
"You won't hit me this time". Oduro says.

And the spear is thrown, and it seems like Oduro has paniced, he doesn't know what to do untill it's too...

BAM

OOHHH... late.
Oduro was hit in his upper left arm, as it seems he has trouble holding up his sword.

"What do you have to say about that... elf?" Vor says while he draws his huge two-handed sword.
"Just a lucky throw, that's all" Oduro says while he bleeds all over the place.

"Take that", WHAM... missed. "And that" WHACK, missed.
Oduro retreats and regroups.


Next round I want to win . I'll do that by making a normal attack.

[Yaw]

Oduro Focus check:

Oduro -- 14 > 12

Focus check successful

Vor attack:

Vor -- 20
Oduro -- 11

Attack successful, critical hit.
4 damage

Willpower check:

Oduro -- 16 < 17

Willpower check fails.
Oduro mortally wounded.
Battle over.

[Mojo]

Odoru, bruised and beaten, wounded in both arms and both legs, gets ready for what seems to be the end (of the battle).
He watches almost helplessly as Vor charges forward with the two-handed sword. And with one swing it's all over. One blow, and all of Oduro's dreams for a victory are shatterd to a million pieces.
How could he go home after a fight in which his opponent wasn't even scratch. How could he look his fellow warriors at the academy after such a deafet and humiliation.
One strike, and all Oduro's hopes and dreams collapsed with him.

The battle was over, and Oduro was to.
"Vor is victorious" yells the announcer.

[Yaw]

Name: Oduro bel’Anath
Player: Yaw
Race: Elf

Description: Young looking, 5’9” with fine features. Fair-skinned, green eyes, with shoulder-length light brown hair worn in thin braids.

Attributes
Initially start with 35 to distribute

EMP 5
CHR 6
ACU 5
REA 4
STR 3
CRD 6
POW 4
PUR 4

Skills
Initial value: 13
HEART Skills
• 2 Negotiation (CHR)
• 2 Intuition (EMP)

MIND Skills
• 2 Observation (ACU)
• 10 Language (Elvish) (REA)
• 4 Language (Trade) (REA)

BODY Skills
• 2 Swords (CRD)
• 2 Evasion (CRD)

SPIRIT Skills
• 2 Focus (PUR)
• 1 Willpower (PUR)

With the battle over, the thread is now open to comments.

[jeep]

I hope I'm allowed to discuss this now...

He uses 2 spears as main weapon, but also carries a two-handed sword with him. Vor is usually covered from head to toe with a full platemail. Although it slows him down, it gives him very good protection.

Two large, unwieldy weapons and full plate mail while carrying a 2H sword? How much does that affect CRD? Should be a LOT- even accounting for unusually high STR and CRD, that's got to be difficult. Also, what is the two weapon penalty? Some of the numbers seem high to me.

-JEEP

[Yaw]

I know. I think we can agree Vor was broken.

I ignored the plate mail, because we simply had no rules for it. This shows we need some. Yes, it should have a detrimental effect on CRD, while helping with defense...although a suggestion Mojo came up with was to have the armour reduce damage, rather than increase defense. (If you hit armour, you've hit your opponent. It just won't hurt as much.)

I was applying a -1 modifier to each of Mojo's attack rolls while holding both weapons. It helped keep me close in the early going. That might not be enough, especially when dealing with two of a weapon that isn't normally used in tandem. (I think we were anticipating two Samurai-style swords when coming up with this, rather than unwieldy spears.)

At least we know we need to reconsider some things...

[Mojo]

I know that the platemail is heavy, but I made him wear such an armor because I knew it didn't have any gameplay effects yet. It was just for style.

Two large, unwieldy weapons...

From what I was told, only heavy weapons are considered two-handed, and everything else (light and medium) are one handed weapons.
And I don't see why someone can't carry a two-handed weapon in a sheath while fighting with other weapons.

Also, what is the two weapon penalty?

The penelty for two weapons are -1 to each hand, but I really think we should do it a -2 for the first hand and -3 for the second unless there's high coordination to make up for it.

[jeep]

From what I was told, only heavy weapons are considered two-handed, and everything else (light and medium) are one handed weapons.
And I don't see why someone can't carry a two-handed weapon in a sheath while fighting with other weapons.

Right, I wasn't thinking about the rules, since those are open to change still...

Have you used a spear? They are 2H weapons for sure, even when thrown the off hand has a lot to do. It's hard to have any control in H2H combat with one hand. I had my grip peeled off once and could barely do anything with that hand. Even had I been gripping it in the middle, it would have been difficult. And it was only a 5' spear- which is short.

As to carrying the 2H weapon, they are large- heavy and bulky. They are a bear to draw from a sheath. Getting ready with a 2H sword should take a round, unless it's drawn already- IMO.

-JEEP

[Yaw]

Ok, stuff learned.

1 -- We need rules regarding armour. I'm now leaning towards a bonus to defense and a penalty to CRD for different kinds of armour, like with different shields. My reasoning for this is that reducing damage might lead to a situation (with characters like Vor) where you can't hit them, and even if you could, you can't do damage. This would just make him harder to hit. Anyway, this is something we can work on.

2 -- The numbers. Let's ignore the rolls and look at the rest of it.

Reaction:

Oduro -- 5+2 = 7
Vor -- 3+4 = 7

Vor's attacks:

Vor attack (double spear) -- 9+4-1 = 12
Vor attack (single spear) -- 9+4 = 13
Vor attack (sword) -- 9+3 = 12
Oduro defense -- 6+2+1 = 9

Oduro's attacks:

Oduro attack -- 6+2 = 8
Vor defense -- 9+4 = 13

The discrepancy here is just brutal. Oduro had to roll 3 more than Vor just to block, and 6 more than Vor to hit! I had to keep making Focus checks on Swords in order to bring that difference down to 5, in order to have a chance in that fight. Since it's Focus on a skill, though, that meant choosing between Swords and Evasion, essentially bettering only offense or defense. Fortunately, only two characters created by players so far even approach Vor's brokenness (those by mith and Otaku).

This fight

did

show that it is difficult to get a critical hit in on someone. Despite Vor's large advantages, he only got a critical hit in once, and only because he was using a slashing weapon at the time (the attack was almost, but not quite double the defense). I'm curious to see how this will play out in the other fights, which should be more balanced.

Extending this conversation a bit, the way this works now with XP, it would cost 10*(new level) in experience to raise a skill (like Swords), and 40*(new level) in experience to raise an attribute (like CRD). This makes sense -- it takes a lot more work to get your natural attributes better than to just acquire new skills. The problem with this is that the method of improving using XP means that natural attributes are unlikely to be increased. This means that players simply won't be able to match Vor's 9s in STR and CRD, because the XP won't be used for that. Even worse, when creating NPCs the XP we have to work with as mods to boost levels are much more likely to go into boosting skills than attributes. I have Level 2 NPC human guards made for combat that would get creamed in a fight by Vor, who is Level 0! So I'm thinking the Slith racial bonuses should be taken down a notch...

[jeep]

NOW, the real question is: Can Vor find a good spot in the world or will he just get shunned and be so abrasive that no one will group with him?

An optimized character like this SHOULD beat a generalist character.

-JEEP

[Yaw]

Yes, an optimized-for-combat level 0 character should beat a generalist level 0 character. That's fine? Should the optimized character be unhittable in that combat? Should the optimized character be able to beat a generalist level 1 character? Level 2? The real problem here is that I'd need to make a level 4 generalist character to have a chance against level 0 Vor.

That's

the unbalanced part. It's more a question of degree.

I don't know if Vor could find a spot in the world. It might be worth running CHR checks any time two people meet. Even so, I worry about him fitting in as a "circus freak" kind of character, which would negate the pitfalls of his bad attributes. Come see Vor, the most hideous Slith! Watch him lift a Ford Pinto over his head unaided!

Sometimes you can become so good at one thing that your other attributes cease to matter to people.

[jeep]

Well, with low status, CHA, and EMP, it would not be unreasonable for the mods to break him out of any group (except maybe all slith groups). Think of the most annoying/abrasive person you can think of-- that's probably still a 2 CHA.

As to should an optimized Level 0 be able to defeat level 4 generalist? Depends on what a level means. Let's try to see what this means in the real world. Vor is significantly stronger than the strongest human and quicker than the quickest human. On top of that assume about 5 years training to get black belt equivilent in his weapon skills (which is generally a "competant" fighter).

Your elf was a borderline weakling that moves well and only had half the training in battle (say a brand new brown belt student). He should have been destroyed easily. I know I defeat new brown belts relatively easily unless they have additional training or street skills, then it's a little more difficult.

So let's add some experience to your elf. In order to compete, he needs to overcome not only the experience gap but the natural aptitude gap. I don't know (and am not supposed to know) what each level means, but I'll assume 4 years training. Now our Brown Belt is likely to be a black belt, possible getting ready to promote to 2nd black. IRL, a black belt with SIGNIFICANT natural aptitude will still probably destroy this person. Let's add a few more years experience... I would expect a 4th black to be able to hold his own with a black belt with significant natural aptitude. In most arts, moving from 1st to 4th black will take 6-12 years of dedicated study. What level does that put him at?

-JEEP

[Yaw]

Well, adjust that analysis a bit. Normal human range for attributes is 1-7. So my Elf might not have been hot in the strength department, but had some excellent coordination on that scale. The Slith was well beyond human range into "Trained Olympic Decathlete Gold Medalist On Steroids".