DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Hullo guys, catching up.

Unvote.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Hi, sorry for the delay, this game is harder to read than the other. I also gave alpha more attention because timing is more critical over there.

I have not discussed this with Kison yet and I kept postponing to make one big post with review of everyone but I decided not to because I don't have firm reads yet. So, the one thing I feel strongly about now.

I think this post is scum:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 35#1655435

It reeks of scum glee at having found vig/sk:
a) shows less than passing concern for AB's alignment
b) the way he ask for Zaphod's kill looks like scum seeing a great opportunity at augmenting the bodies count

To this I add that I don't see the case on Zaphod and don't like the way trostky has been pushing it. Plus, I don't think DGB is cynical enough to use emotional blackmail as scum to get out of trouble, so my read of her is town at the moment.

Vote trotsky

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Replacing in has been overwhelming and since this game is not time-critical, it has been put off. I've also had very little contact with Springlullaby lately, but have decided to move ahead. Apologies.

- I completely agree that anyone posting nothing but fluff needs to die, especially this late in the game. I don't think the same holds true to the same degree when it comes to lurking in this game - I think the format, which stresses making every post count, will inevitably encourage it. Knowing that I have to make a post heavy with content is part of what is invoking procrastination from me. That does not necessarily excuse it when done excessively, but it is something to keep in mind.

@Incamnito: "I need to discuss some stuff with camn about Frog Dodging." - what has this yielded? FD has given me the strongest town vibes, especially in light of their near death experience, so I am interested to hear your reasons for not including them on your list of people who you would not consider lynching.

Lurking=bad, especally if it slows the game to a halt.

You have not posted in 11 days. Where are you? (granted I like what little you have provided)

We disagree with your opinion here. Both town and scum could want to keep a claimed Vig alive. That way the "vig" would kill people for them
* Scum would want "Vig" to wipe out town. Direct the "vig" to kill other townies
* Town would want "Vig" to kill scum
It is a null tell. If RW is town they clearly did not realize Town has infinite lynches and wouldn't need to direct the vig.

My reaction to RagingWishbone's unvote was the same as Ortohoops' - the reason is that town would be more likely to consider the possible benefits of that claim being legit, and utilizing the kill of the vigilante without realizing that they already possess the potential to make up for it themselves with their limitless lynches. While it's only in the benefit of the SK to kill town,

both

serial killers and vigilantes *want* to kill scum. The more likely to give off the knee-jerk reaction of unvoting would be town.

Yes accidently did some hydra confusion there. Though since those posts we have discussed and reached an opinion together. We think Zaphod is scum. They have agreedwith others/wagon jumped at times convienant to when others have been pressuring them. Trotsky or RW pressures them and they are in with a vote and post right after it. Its like they are running scared trying to grasp onto anything to stay a float.

I think that's a bit of a stretch. Zaphod stated in their post prior to voting that they would be doing so if Apples and Banana's claim was 'unsatisfactory'. Additionally, Trotsky/Raging Wishbone never pressured them into voting A&B but voted for a lack of erratic behavior from DGB.

Aside from one of the other contentless posters, I'm not really seeing a great alternative to PokeTheAlpaca - he was one of the fluffers early on and his main comeback so far has been trying to justify the use of those useless posts and igniting a weak case on Zaphod. I'm counting five votes on the wagon. I'm willing to wait a bit to hear what Wishbone has to say - I also need to see if I can get into contact with my partner. Ultimately I will likely be moving my vote there, however.

ZMD, Trotsky, Yosariwen, Zaphod, and a few others who have gone dark lately should probably post soonish.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

I am going to try to keep this as short and sweet as possible. Seriously. Every post doesn't need to be an epic saga. I also believe you folks scared away my partner, and I'm not sure if she's coming back. Good going.

Yosariwen's re-entrance into the game is very good. I'm getting a strong town vibe from him, and while I believe the point Ortohoops raises about his contradictory Raging Wishbone vote is valid, I believe his explanation is sufficient, nor do I believe it warrants the amount of attention that it has received. The pushes against him don't feel genuine, particularly from Raging Wishbone, and as such...

Vote: Raging Wishbone

for that horrendous vote justification in post 186:

Yos tail = easy... any time you try to defend Nuwens lack of intelligence and vocabulary and understanding of the game. Everyone here knows she ain't that stupid Dude... quit patronizing her, writing things that make her look stupid...kinda looks scummy because she does not seem to be a retard.

This is not an omgus vote it is bassd on ALPHA!

Whether or not this is a joke, it's terrible. Not only is it wrong - the 'tell' you speak of was applicable to the previous game because there was an actual slip that was being covered up - but it is the only real, 'solid' attempt at a justification I see in your entire post.

However, the ease of the wagon on PoketheAlpaca seems off to me; it seems too easy, no one seems to disagree with it at all. I can't quite explain it; I see scumtells and they look scummy on their own, but the wagon feels like it might be scum supported to me, or at least not scum opposed, if that makes sense; no one is arguing against this wagon, or trying to start a competing wagon, and that feels like a bad sign to me. Nuwen says she would like to see more people comment on this wagon.

So...now you want as many comments as possible on the wagon, prolonging the time it will take to lynch which you said just before you wanted to shorten? Your defence also makes no sense: "he's acting scummy but...I don't think he's scum".

You're putting words into his mouth. That entire paragraph you quoted is nothing more than an observation, yet you are twisting it to appear as if he is requesting that people carry it out.

I PF was scum. And everybody (Town and Scum) tried to use DGB (Who was a very powerful Vig) to kill other players since you were allowed 2 day kills a day and or only 1 lynch. Not even for a second did my scum group think of killing DGB. We thought of ways to use here to kill others for us the entire time. We even planned to lynch her later because her kills of town made her look like scum because she killed sometimes without anybody asking her too. She could have gone after us at any moment, thought we were scum and shot us to pieces. But she didn't. We figured she wouldn't and we were right. In my experience Town and scum have equal reasons to keep any and all other killing roles alive. As long as a player is a use to you there is no reason to kill them. Our scum group in that game even had the power to day kill without DGB to some extent. We didn't need her, she could have killed us, but we kept her alive because she was useful. If someone is useful to you and your side, then there is no reason to get rid of them no matter what side you are on. And I can see ways an extra kill could benefit either side.

Fair enough. Looking back, I'm noting that Raging Wishbone unvotes despite explicitly stating that he believes Apples & Bananas is more likely to be serial killer, which is seems a bit off to me.

Check the time stamp and words of these posts from our game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1642063
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#1645208
and compare them to these posts from the alpha game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1642065
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 06#1645206
Tajo was clearly under the wrong impression that these games were the same. He has to treat and learn from both of them and he should now have learned from these mistakes with recent postings not being of the same manner.

This is an explanation I'm willing to accept. It doesn't counteract some things, however, such as the post on page three summarizing game events while being devoid of analysis, but it leads me to believe you guys were not trying to run up the post count as I previously did. Also, I agree with Shelvis that you seem to be tunneling. Could you provide a brief rundown of each player in your next post?

Korts' vote for Zaphod in post 183 does not look sincere, as it is one of few things he comments on despite the massive amount of content in the game up to that point.

Korts post was fine!

No it wasn't.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

This game is getting stupider by the

minute

ice age glacier crawl. The amount of text is just ridiculous, and this to no improvement to the content ratio that I can see. I have not read the last page and I don't plan on doing so. I think everyone has been padding their posts due to early pressure to not post fluff, well, if you are town, stop it, content=/=words count=most people have the brain to make the difference.

On Zaphod Beeblebrox, I see the case being pushed against them as wobbly. I could see town do the 'gloating' at the sk lynch too.

On Pokethealpaca: the early lack of good contribution is an ok argument
however, the 'posting fluff is extremely antitown and likely from scum' argument is almost certainly bunk, so it kind of make them less likely to be scum.

Still waiting on trotsky.

On Yosariwen: I hate it. Justification in less than 100 words for last page please. What was the point you were trying to make. Why so many words?

FOS

up to lynch it at any moment.

We need to deal with this in a sane manner because I don't see the current dynamic going anywhere anytime soon, which is crap because he setup is actually extremely advantageous to town. I suggest we do a lynch pledging list and whomever reach majority get lynched in a methodical manner. If no majority can be reached, we lynch by relative majority.

Currently with ~4 pages left it would be a shame if we couldn't manage at least one more lynch (though there is room for two).

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (0)
3. Zmd (0)
4. Trotsky(1): nyballosulgniirkps
5. Ojando (0):
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps
8. Ortohoops (0):
9. sex w/ shafteds wife club(0):
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (0):
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

This post is pending input by Kison. For the sake of effeciency, I'm imposing the 'revision by partner' of the pledge list at 1 post per hydra and per lynch.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Again, I am keeping this short and sweet. If that's a problem, bite me.

PokeTheAlpaca - Well, wasn't really fond of the wagon by the last time I posted, and I think Shaft.ed's death, overall, doesn't say a lot. While it lowers the probability he was scum with them, it doesn't really speak much in terms of whether or not he's the 2nd serial killer.

@J-scope - I dont get it? You had an entire conversation by yourself or you just posted an entire fake daytalk to ruin any chance we had of catching anyone else? Dude my scum hunting techniques may not be the best, but at least I am trying... you seem to just want to lynch townies.

UNVOTE

VOTE - JSCOPE

He raised a very valid point in that inter-hydra communication can be faked. He pulled it off successfully in the Alpha game. Why

wouldn't

he show that it can be done? His posting of the quicktopic also does not invalidate the potential use of the posting of conversations. If scum are going to fake their communications, that is where they will slip up, as we have already seen with Yosariwen in the Alpha game.

@FrogDodge - Seriousley Dude, why were you so confident A&B lied or you had protection... you wrote in response (paraphrased) to his claim, "Dont count us out until we are dead". You seemed positive you would not be SK'd!

That doesn't sound like confidence at all. If you read the entirety of their post, you can see they spat out what they were thinking because,

as they said

, their mortality was on the line.

And I strongly believe FD to be SK because of his confidence in surviving A&B's kill. Surviving the kill itself is a long shot. How many times do you see a claimed vig's kill stopped by a doc or RB? And if the action was sent before A&B claimed their target, why would FD be protected? It's still plausible that A&B was RB'd, but that's about it. I think either they were RB'd or FD is SK.

Again, see above. While the argument for Frog Dodging being possible Serial Killer

because

they survived the kill attempt is legit, I would not jump to that conclusion with the information that is currently available. With two Serial Killers in the game, it's not at all beyond the realm of possibility to assume that town has some fairly hefty power in this game.

VOTE: FrogDodge

Unless we can figure out if A&B was lying... I see no other reason he is not dead. I kinda would like to stick with Occams Razor.

Are you kidding me? You're just going to jump to the conclusion that your suspected 'explanation' for Frog Dodge's survival is the correct one, simply because no role has yet to come forward and claim responsibility?

Die, scum.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

i haven't completely gone through all of the monster posts that have been made recently, but i will be getting together with my other head and doing that soon. a cursory glance up the page after this shaft.elvis death gives me a warm fuzzy about zaphod's chances of being a scumpartner.

And have you concluded anything from this, yet?

The votecount is strangely at odds with this list also.

I believe this is because of the hydra situation. The discrepancy on our part is largely due to a lack of communication. For that reason I'll update the list. Top two candidates on my list right now are Raging Wishbone and ZMD. Both made the ridiculous attempt of painting Frog Dodging as possessing confidence that they wouldn't die by taking their post out of content. This is more a fault on Raging Wishbone's part, though, as he was the one who actually posted the quote. Top that off with his ridiculous attempt to draw a parallel between Yosarian's defense of Nuwen here and in the Alpha game, and I'd gladly see him die today.

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (1) Ojando
3. Zmd (2) Ojando, Ortohoops, nybaloosulgniirkps
4. Trotsky(4): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD, Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ortohoops
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps(?)
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (2): Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ojando, nyballosulgniirkps
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

[nyballosulgniirkps]

So you said two entirely differnt things there genius. So do we try to catch scum that way because it is where they will slip or do we not because it can be faked. You can't have it both ways.

You don't use the absence of scummy inter-hydra communication as a reason for writing someone off as town, because it can be faked, but instead look for glitches where editing may have occurred. It's not having it both ways. It's using common sense. It's obvious chats can be faked, and one would have to be pretty dense to post any incriminating conversations without editing them, unless they are unable to. What J-Scope said doesn't really change that.

And how is it ridiculous and out of context (I assume you meant context and not content)?

The issue of context isn't so much of a problem in your case as it was in Raging Wishbone's, because (I think) you didn't do any quoting. However, here's what you originally said(bolding is mine):

And I strongly believe FD to be SK because of his confidence in surviving A&B's kill. Surviving the kill itself is a long shot. How many times do you see a claimed vig's kill stopped by a doc or RB? And if the action was sent before A&B claimed their target, why would FD be protected? It's still plausible that A&B was RB'd, but that's about it. I think either they were RB'd or FD is SK.

Here's what he actually said:

You guys can start digging our grave once we're dead, and not a minute before, OK?

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise. Raging Wishbone is quite inefficient at what they're trying to do. Yosariwen is way more downkey than I would expect. Look at them after our death. Sex club is a tad bit quieter than I would like. PTA and ZMD need to die already, especially PTA. Incamnito is one of the people that the town needs to start striving to act like. For someone saying so much about activity and whatnot, Ortohoops is extremely quiet. Death and Trotsky need to start speaking up. I have also heard absolutely nothing from nyball.

The entire post considered, it seems pretty obvious there was no certainty.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Here is your problem and here is something EVERY OTHER TOWNIE HAS DONE and needs to ask themself? Isn't the first thing you do when returning from VLA to ask your PARTNERS opinion on the game?

I don't think Kaleidoscope is very invested in the game, and from what Jahudo said, it doesn't seem like he intends to change that. Why would he feel obligated to ask about his opinions if he doesn't even intend on playing?

Dude, you stated YOU contacted him and HE did NOT contact you

He posted that on June first at 12:34 eastern. The timestamp in the response is on June first at 15:50 eastern. Where's the contradiction?

I dont think Hoops has been back since Alpha and since you made it perfectly clear Screencaps can be faked...why bother posting one? Perhaps cause your scum buddy SexEd told you (or in other words rewarded your comment with praise) it was the way to denegrate and subsequently win any conversatiosn regarding im/qts/pm, ect...?

You asked him to post the conversations, and yet you are attacking him for abiding?

Unvote

Vote: Trotsky

Not entirely opposed to this wagon. Useless tunneling on Zaphod and general lack of depth in his posts. We also are running low on posts. I'd still prefer a Raging Wishbone lynch, but I do not believe it will happen.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

whatever happens here doesn't change the fact that dgb went on some stupid cross-game whiny rampage at me lasting months because she can't handle when someone is suspicious of her in more than one game at a time. i hope you don't act like a petulant child in your day to day life too.

I see this as a confession of guilt.

This is action phase - 10 post.

Hammer please.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Vote: Raging Wishbone

- I'm sticking with where I left off. At this point, top two suspects are ZMD and Raging Wishbone. I have explained my reasons for both in previous posts.

Regardless of the above statement DGb is not playing normal and I do not think it is due to the mechanics of the game after her exchange with Trotsky.

Care to explain? Why do you not believe it's because of the game mechanic?

The Frog Dodging attacks are getting pretty stale. First it was that he was the serial killer. Now that that's over and done with, the speculation is that he received the scum doctor protection. Can anyone point to scuminess in their actual play? That would probably be a more promising place to start.

Vote: Trotsky

Not entirely opposed to this wagon. Useless tunneling on Zaphod and general lack of depth in his posts. We also are running low on posts. I'd still prefer a Raging Wishbone lynch, but I do not believe it will happen.

This not entirely opposed thing made me twitch and I just went waaait a minute with the preference. At this point with 6 to lynch RW had 4 votes, Trotsky 3, you yourself reversed it to RW 3 Trotsky 4.
Why did you believe a RW lynch wouldn't happen?

Yes, it was 4 VS 3. I didn't thoroughly count the votes, though. At that point I went for who I thought would be most likely to be lynched, and it seemed to me that a Trotsky was growing, while others(Frog Dodging comes to mind), gave an indication of believing Raging Wishbone was just dumb town, so unlikely to switch.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Vote: Raging Wishbone

Obv.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

@nyballs: Is ZMD still your top suspect? How much of it is this reason:

Top two candidates on my list right now are Raging Wishbone and ZMD. Both made the ridiculous attempt of painting Frog Dodging as possessing confidence that they wouldn't die by taking their post out of content.

Yes. I still find the attack on Frog Dodging to be incredibly scummy, regardless of the fact that Raging Wishbone, in their deranged state of mind, clung to it despite being town. There are other things, though, the main point which comes to mind being his complete detachment from the game earlier on, though that point on its own doesn't hold as much weight in my opinion because of the mechanic that previously governed the game.

Vote: Zmd

This concerns me mildly because I feel that Zaphod is trying to draw attention to the fact that she is not paying attention to shaft.ed. People should naturally be concerned when a player ignores another player, so you’d think said player would not want to make it known they are doing a suspicious thing by ignoring another player. And that other player flipped scum.

While it's legitimate for you to believe this, I have seen, in other games(from town DGB at least) this apparent outspoken ignorance to what seems obvious occurrences in the game. That's not a point in their favor but rather a lack of a point against. That said, the inconsistency in Zaphod's attacks leave me unsettled. I don't really think their interaction with Trotsky is very telling.

11. nyballosulgniirkps Pesco Light June 9-17 and June 17-26

<...>

It's possible that some players didn't post under their hydra, let THEM show that they weren't lurking during the intervals stated above. If they do I'll remove the name from the suspicion list.

I like the analysis of the lurking, particularly as regards to nyballs. They're very experienced players and it's unlikely scum would want to kill without their input.

A quick search will reveal that I was present and accounted for on the site during both of those two intervals, and on several occasions. My partner(springlullaby), however, was not... As long as one of us was, though, I think that renders the argument null.

Town Lean:
Frog Dodging

Town:
PoketheAlpaca
Zmd

In light of the two serial killer flips, why do you only put Frog Dodging in the "Town Lean" category?

JScope is scum with ny.

Fuck. What gave us away?

[nyballosulgniirkps]

I like the analysis of the lurking, particularly as regards to nyballs. They're very experienced players and it's unlikely scum would want to kill without their input.

A quick search will reveal that I was present and accounted for on the site during both of those two intervals, and on several occasions. My partner(springlullaby), however, was not... As long as one of us was, though, I think that renders the argument null.

How does that refute the point? If FD is right, wouldn't you want Spring's input before killing?

I think the point they raised had more to do with the absense of the input of the entire account rather than one head. And no, if I was scum, I wouldn't wait, because Springlullaby has been busy most of the time this game has been running, and our communication has been nearly nonexistent.

In light of the two serial killer flips, why do you only put Frog Dodging in the "Town Lean" category?

in particular is bizarre. Sure, we're not an SK and that disproves the only serious attack against us this game. But does that somehow make us confirmed town? I don't think so.

Bah, you're right. I'm an idiot. I got so wrapped up in arguing against the serial killer argument that I guess I mixed that up with scum in general.

While it's legitimate for you to believe this, I have seen, in other games(from town DGB at least) this apparent outspoken ignorance to what seems obvious occurrences in the game. That's not a point in their favor but rather a lack of a point against. That said, the inconsistency in Zaphod's attacks leave me unsettled. I don't really think their interaction with Trotsky is very telling.

This is extremely vague. There are 2 things presented as nulltells and then inconsistency in attacks is mentioned. A cursory look at ZB's posting history doesn't make me think the meant inconsistency is obvious. What was your specific thought, nyball?

I'm not sure what is vague, here. I was in a game with DGB a few months ago where she consistently forgot that certain players were in the game and missed kill scenes. I found it scummy in that game but she was town, so I feel it's worth mentioning that I don't find it particularly scummy to see it in this game.

That's your nulltell.

What I dislike is the inconsistency. In particular I am referring to her rapid back and forth stance on Zmd.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Hi. I'm still here. I don't have time to do a thorough read right now, as there are several players I need to get a stronger vibe from. Hopefully I can do this shortly.

Prior to reading:

FD - Town
PTA - Town
J-Scope - Neutral/Town
Ortohoops - Neutral
Ojando - Neutral/Scum
Zaphod - Scum

[nyballosulgniirkps]

It's no arcane matter that I am not very into this game. No fault to this game in particular; I <3 Adel and think he's done great. Excessively long posts don't help, but the fire inside for Mafia is slowly getting doused, and a quick look at my activity on the site will make this evident. But I'm not scum, and my disdain for being lynched as town has helped me avoid it for 19 months now, for a total of 3, and I have no intention of changing that for this game. I also have never been replaced and refuse to go out by tainting that. So, I'm here to ride this out, but realize my lack of heavy involvement doesn't nail me down as scum.

The conviction in Ortolan's latest post is unsettling. None of what he said would lead me to see a positive link with such a degree of certainty. Particularly unsettling is his last bit about my placement of Zaphod & Ojanen because

_he_

doesn't see a link between the two. It was very obviously implied in my post that I didn't have a solid hold on Ojanen, and that it was more of a singular, gut-based feeling I had.

He is correct that many of my opinions have mirrored those of J-Scope's. However, this is merely coincidence and began around the time I started to attack Raging Wishbone over his Frog Dodging nonsense. I disliked the same thing about ZMD, and had been gunning for them both since then. If I recall correctly, J-Scope had several other reasons for attacking those two. Any lack of mention of J-Scope on my part is because I don't find him to be particularly scummy. There are several other players who I have mentioned very minimally. Bonus points if you can name them.

At various times earlier in the game you state you don't see the case on zaphod from trotsky or others. Judging your recent reads post it would appear you have changed your mind about them. Are their back and forth reads on ZMD your only reason? How does this relate to your early game read of Zaphod?

No, I said that I didn't think Zaphod's interaction with and reaction to Trotsky made them scum, and this was more or less in response to someone bringing it up.

You get off RW's wagon and vote trotsky as trotsky's wagon is picking up before page 12. You were the 4th vote on RW and the 4th vote on Trotsky at that point. Is there any great reason you can give for thinking a wagon on Trotsky would go through over your wagon on RW? Why didn't you continue to try to push for an RW lynch when you clearly perfered it and needed the same number of votes?

This has been explained already. We were under the post constraint at that point, and closing in on the limit. I was pushing for a lynch to go through, and did not mind seeing Trotsky go. This was back when people were posting absurdly long posts. I didn't accurately count the votes, but things seemed to be moving towards Trotsky. And as such, I placed my vote where I felt it would most likely lead to a lynch I was not opposed to. It worked.

In that post You don't mention any strong suspicions on trotsky. The only time you mention an actual case for suspecting trotsky before that post is a month earlier here:

<Snip>

Did you think that alone was reason enough to lynch trotsky?

This was made by Springlullaby and, because of what I have said about there being virtually no communication between us, I don't know any more of why she placed that vote than what is in written in the post.

My

reason was more gut-based; I recall not liking Trotsky's complete detachment from the game, and unwillingness to fight the grim situation he was in. Not something I would have expected from roflcopter. But I didn't feel like spending hours sifting through posts just so I could match the intensity of this game and justify my vote to everyone else. Call that scummy if you please, but I don't have the fire inside to do it anymore.

Me and you had a discussion earlier. You said RW's unvote of A&B was a town tell. If I recall correctly you said it had something to do with RW wanting to utilize A&B's kill. How does this relate to your read of trotsky being scum for wanting to use the kill?

The point I attempted to make was that scum would be more likely, in a knee-jerk reaction, to get rid of a claimed vigilante. But I later agreed with you here.

Your main reasons for going after RW and ZMD were you believed the attack both had made on Frogdodging was a great misrepresentation. You sad earlier you believed RW was more guilty of the attack than ZMD because RW had done direct quoting of the post where frogdodge dealt with their mortality. When RW flipped Town it didn't seem to effect your main standing reasons.

No, it didn't, because Raging Wishbone's entire game-play had been messier than an interstate pileup. Looking back, just about every move he made was illogical, particularly his complete reversal of appropriate response to Frog Dodging after he was almost certainly a contributing factor in them not biting the big one. So, just because

he

bought into idiocy didn't excuse ZMD from the same.

You aslo mention you had other things and then undermine that logic by saying it doesn't hold that much weight. I don't think you really had any other strong reasons for going after them. Can you explain why you were willing to continue going after ZMD for the same main reasons you went after RW when you said ZMD was less guilty of it? Can you also state if there were truly other things that you actually felt strongly about?

Again, "other things" is referring to general vibes that I did not feel like pursuing or justifying in the eyes of others. "Less guilty" also does not mean "not guilty." It means Raging Wishbone is of higher priority. With him out of the picture, ZMD raised rank in the queue of scumbaggedness.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Ojando, the inconsistency you are pointing out is mostly because of my partner. #1 and #4 are not mine, and I'm fairly baffled that you didn't realize this. If you don't believe me then I recommend you read the posts entirely. Both posts also mention me in third person. I also always vote with a colon.

#3 was written by me, but that was not a defense. In fact, I can't recall ever taking a 'pro Zaphod' stance this entire game. As you've accurately pointed out, I did defend against the notion that their apparent obliviousness to previous events was scummy, but as is also clearly stated, that is not a point in their favor.

Any transition of my stance on Zaphod has been from neutral to scummy, and that is nothing short of natural.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Shanba: I have basically admitted to skimming this game. The problem is that it's not an indication of my alignment. I can give a plethora of games where I have lurked as town and skimmed just to avoid being replaced. I can also list several games where I have done this as scum in the past. It's more a matter of whether or now I am enjoying the game. My reasons for being detached from this game are not alignment based, and I think if you look at my dwindling level of activity over the site in recent weeks, that you will see for yourself that this trend is not exclusive to this game. I also think that you, of all people, should know this can and does happen to players. You should also note that even as a duo(we were, at the time), Springlullaby and I were not very helpful in the Alpha game, where we were town. I urge you to look to see if you can find any actual difference between our behavior in that game and this one, and ask yourself if you truly, honestly think I am scum because of my activity and level of commitment to this game.

nyb: who do you think the scum-pair is if you're not in it?

I don't think J-Scope is scum. I don't think Frog Dodging is scum. I also don't think PokeTheAlpaca is scum. This means I think the scum are among you, Ojanen and Zaphod Beeblebrox. If I had to pick two, it would be you and Zaphod.

In this paragraph you mention the main reason roflcopter was attacked by Zaphod, rofl's lurkage/detachment from the game. Gut is the only reason you mention as your own. How long did it take you to right this paragraph? Not long huh? So i don't see why you couldn't have given something short and to this equivalence back then.

I certainly could have, had I spent the time thinking about what it was I did not like at the time of posting that. But I didn't, and acknowledge that it is anti-town.

Then why did you even bring up those vibes or other things? You brought them up and then said they carried 'less' weight. By saying less weight you undermine your argument. I think that if you genuinely had other reasons at all you would have expressed them as 'some' weight. That way you would actually be giving a better case and or hunting with better reasoning.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. The only point that I said carried 'less weight' was in reference to ZMD's detachment from the game. By 'less weight' I am (poorly) trying to say that I think it carries less weight

in this game

because of the post-limiting mechanic resulting in the monstrously sized posts. It should be obvious that 'less weight' does not mean 'no weight', so again, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, here.

The 'less guilty' comment is a completely different thing, and that is my comparison between Raging Wishbone and ZMD's attacks on Frog Dodging. I thought Raging Wishbone was scummier because of it because he was the one who went and found their post of imminent death and selectively quoted it, whereas ZMD claimed to have based his opinion on the selective quoting.

Not going deeply into your reasoning on trotsky makes me think you were trying to sneak in a vote in order to get any lynch and not the lynch you seemed to be wanting, especially since you didn't seem to realize the wagons were at the same size.

I can't really argue this beyond citing my low level of devotion to this game, and more recently, Mafia in general.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Let's do it.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Claim:

Doctor

Protection Receipt #2
Protection Receipt #3
Protection Receipt #4
Protection Receipt #4.2 (got sent again after Adel left)

Role PM
Inbox
Sentbox

Protection Submission #2
Protection Submission #3
Protection Submission #4

Note: Pregame Pesco Light protected Frog Dodging. We've protected them every phase since then.

I didn't do any hard crumbing. The closest I believe I came to it was (after someone said it should be done) where I criticized Raging Wishbone post mortem for how he attacked FD despite having protected them. I made a point in being overly zealous about them not being scum (and I wasn't lying when I said I confused the idea of them not being SK, which I held ever since the first kill was blocked, with them not being scum), but especially after the 2nd time a kill apparently was blocked.

I am hesitant to say that Ojando is lying after we saw three trackers last game, although three doctors and two trackers seems a bit overboard. I would like for him to provide similar screen shots, stat.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

I am assuming you sent protects during phase 2 and phase 3.

And why, exactly are you jumping to this conclusion? Don't you think that if I was scum and spent the time forging all of those images(yes, I think I could do it, but it would not be fun and not guaranteed to look legit) that I would have at least checked to see how many action phases there were to make sure I hadn't missed any?

I am looking at Saunt Adelaus' posts in isolation right now and imagining I am scum looking for when the phases started and ended,

which I would have had to have done if I was scum

. What do you presume that I would look for when carrying out this task?

Start of Action Phase 1

Start of Day 3, Action Phase 2

Start of Day 4, Action Phase 3

If I were to have 'forgotten' to add in a protection, it would have been for the one that was just wrapped up, which was poorly labled. Obviously I failed to submit a protection for the short lived action phase.

And I know this probably means nothing, but I don't have Photoshop or any other image manipulating software that would be practical for the task of forging images like that at this time(Main drive died on Friday and am in the process of restoring it). I used good ol' Paint to crop those images(you can see I barely managed to get the width of each PM, because the PoS program doesn't scroll over or let you zoom out).

[nyballosulgniirkps]

I made a point in being overly zealous about them not being scum (and I wasn't lying when I said I confused the idea of them not being SK, which I held ever since the first kill was blocked, with them not being scum), but especially after the 2nd time a kill apparently was blocked.

How does that make FD look town to you? Are you saying you thought your protection blocked the kill? I don't see how you could think that since you didn't protect him the day the first kill was blocked in action phase 3. This looks like a scum slip.

Because I didn't realize I had missed a protection until PtA pointed it out, and I am arguing that it is more likely that I would overlook that as a lurky sonofabitch townie, than it is that I would miss those giant bold letters when I would have had to have looked up the times of the action phases when forging those images, as scum. What do you think? If I forged those images, where did I find out when the action phases started and ended when I put in the other four 'fake' protections? How did I miss action phase 2, when both ends were clearly labeled, but managed to get 4, which wasn't(I actually had trouble figuring out when the start/end of 4 was when I looked during my last post)?

The other two claimed doctors need to provide the same screen shots that I did. You can argue all you want about how I have the ability to forge those images, but does the same hold true of the other two? If they are legit, they should have no problem copy and pasting each bit into Paint, or some other crappy equivalent, and posting them up on imageshack like I did. If you want to be sure about who you gets lynched today, you folks need to do that at the very least. And put a time limit on it.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

I would also like to point out that half of nyball is known for image work, and so screenshots should not be taken as proof of anything.

I do not plan on submitting screenshots cause I ain't turning myself inside-out for something easily faked.

Very convenient change of opinion, from implying that the task requires a level of competence when I provide, to stating that it is easily faked when you are asked to do the same.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

I am assuming you sent protects during phase 2 and phase 3.

And why, exactly are you jumping to this conclusion?

Don't you think that if I was scum and spent the time forging all of those images(yes, I think I could do it, but it would not be fun and not guaranteed to look legit) that I would have at least checked to see how many action phases there were to make sure I hadn't missed any?

This comes off like wifom. You could have made a mistake as scum. After all the alternative is that you made a mistake as town. Either way there definatly seems to be something amiss here.

Yes, either mistake is possible. The question is: which one is more likely? You seemed to draw the conclusion that the mistake as scum is the only one that makes any sense. There's nothing in those shots that contradicts a doctor claim.

Also you say you could fake it and then say your drive went dead and you don't have the software. Which is it, can you do it now or not?

By 'could', I am talking about ability, not being in a position to do it.

Also you made the argument earlier that you had not been playing much site wide and been generally lurkish. I asked you how many games you are in and you have not answered. I don't think its a rules violation to mention how many you currently are in. correct me if I am wrong.

Sorry. I'm in one other game besides this one, and moderating one Newbie game. That hasn't changed since you asked the question.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Vote: Frog Dodging

, because (A) I am not scum, and (B), they stalled when asked to complete their claim.