Mini 839 -- Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[jammer]

Jammer, you're acting like Frank Dekkard from Blade Runner here, which could be awesome; your memory is a little selective, but you still play it cool. The fact that you'd reference a play you made, as scum, to accuse me of double standards gives me an early indication that you are, in fact, one of the 3 scum in this game.

How does my allignment in that game change the fact you used double standards?

Let me ask you something; do you think that, if you had been town in that newbie game, your survey would have been helpful in finding scum? Naturally, and grounds for conversation is valid, but this survey business is flawed, as I've pointed out before, because people don't realize it's not about the answers, and they focus on the questions.

I would be doing that survey regardless of allignment. It was helpfull in getting out of random voting. It is good to start some discussion. But I agree you should loose focus on it if discussion is attracting.

And of course I suspected you. I played along with your game, but I knew it was you all along. My life-long relationship with the English language has left me with a remarkably accurate sense of perception about such things.

[James.Denholm]

I don't think I'm going to give you a "baseline meta read", or allow you to gain data from me to continue what looks to me like the basis of some pretty complex role-fishing. Or some complex plan you've cooked up, which I think has been shot down in a blaze lacking glory. You can do that hard work yourself.

Seriously, what the hell does our favourite fiction character have to do with anything? And if it does have something to do with something, what's to stop me from lying? I could say, for example, Harry Potter, when I mean, for example, Marcus Fenix! You probably don't even know who that is!

And there, that should probably be enough for you to get a start of a meta read. Ha.

Awesome approach, btw, Cruciare. You remind me of me a bit. Or maybe more another new player, Crypto...

[imaginality]

Nice to see we're out of the random vote stage already. Excellent.

And Y.C deserves a slight FoS for seemingly trying to avoid commenting on the whole survey thing either way. Random-voting when there's already some real if small reasons to vote people is lazy at best and suspiciously trying to stay under the radar at worst.

Just to give my thoughts on the survey faff (I'm heading out now so I'll answer the survey itself, and comment more on the other posts, in my next post): Answering this survey is, as Vi said, not something a pro-town player should fear. Maybe at worst it could be pointless (but no more so than the random vote stage), but how and what people answer does have the potential to be useful. Expecting that Vi would avoid the fray simply because he asked the questions is ridiculous; if anything he'd come under more attention for doing so (and he has), unless the town is full of idiots, and Vi would definitely be expected to answer them himself. So, I find Porkens' reaction to the survey rather over-the-top.

[sigma]

Hi folks.

Vote: Jammer

Jammers interfere with the transmission of information. More information is good for town, ergo interfering with it is anti-town. QED.

I like surveys, so I'll answer it despite others' objections.

@vi: Please fill out your own survey. If you seriously contend that this information helps the town, you shouldn't have a problem doing this yourself.

1) 1. See my wiki if you're interested.
2) No.
3) No.
4) None.
5) No preference because of lack of experience with forum mafia.
6) Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes.
7) 3.
8) I like surveys.
9) Yes -- whether or not it's answered by scum.
10) Null-tell.
11) Yes.
12) Not applicable, haven't played any games to a result as town yet.

[James.Denholm]

Answering this survey is, as Vi said, not something a pro-town player should fear.

Yes it is! (S?)He could be scum, and that could be some complex rolefishing going on there!

If I'm a PR, like hell I'm going to give the scum the slightest clue at this early stage.

Expecting that Vi would avoid the fray simply because he asked the questions is ridiculous; if anything he'd come under more attention for doing so (and he has), unless the town is full of idiots, and Vi would definitely be expected to answer them himself. So, I find Porkens' reaction to the survey rather over-the-top.

Well, that's the thing. If Vi has done what I think he's done, these questions have been structured carefully so that only Vi really knows how to interpret them. So we give him a tonne of information, and he gives nothing back.

It's all a conspiracy... Can't you see? Can't you see?! *Grabs tin foil*

[Col.Cathart]

I'm gonna fill that survey as well. After all, they're giving us some information (even if they are hidden somewhere deeply between the lines) about every player, so I think that all in all it's giving us more pros than cons...

1) 2

2) GiantITP Werewolf games. Much less serious business than mafiascum, but still very enjoyable

3) Nope, not all. Probably enough to be a SE in a newbie game, but nothing more.

4) Porkens and Jammer. Their presence here was the main reason I joined this game as well

5) Never got to be a scum, so I cannot really answer it.

6) Loads and loads of them. Most notable: William Wallace, because he's fucking awesome. Raven and Eddy from Tekken for reason above. Cole McGrath from InFamous, because he's the hero (or villain) of my latest favorite game. Sanji from One Piece, because as a Capoeira practitioner, I especially like people who are good at kicking

7) 3 or 4.

8) Mentioned above

9) It is already. Reactions to it itself will be IMO very helpful later in the game.

10) One Rabbi will say yes, and other will say no. Impossible to tell right now.

11) Nope. I'm Polish. I think I can handle English quite well though...

12) Ok, this one is extremely dangerous question. Every player has it's own tactic, and revealing it to scum is not a smart move IMO. I hope you understand my point of view

[Vi]

*lots of stuff*

And there, that should probably be enough for you to get a start of a meta read. Ha.

*scribbles in notebook "J.D is a jerk."*

----

@vi: Please fill out your own survey. If you seriously contend that this information helps the town, you shouldn't have a problem doing this yourself.

I've already said I would when everyone else has. I'll even lower the bar and go when everyone has had the chance to do it or not do it.

----

Well, that's the thing. If Vi has done what I think he's done, these questions have been structured carefully so that only Vi really knows how to interpret them. So we give him a tonne of information, and he gives nothing back.

...or you could ask me to explain it to you.

Please make sure your tinfoil hat is actually made of tinfoil, and not Cling Wrap.

[jammer]

Jammers interfere with the transmission of information. More information is good for town, ergo interfering with it is anti-town. QED.

I interfere with the transmission of information? What do you mean?

Well, that's the thing. If Vi has done what I think he's done, these questions have been structured carefully so that only Vi really knows how to interpret them. So we give him a tonne of information, and he gives nothing back.

It's all a conspiracy... Can't you see? Can't you see?! *Grabs tin foil*

Higher psychologie, I knew it. Er.., eh?
What do you think about Porkens opinion this being a smokescreen?

[DeathRowKitty]

Why do you have to be last to answer the questions? If you'll have to answer them anyway, there should be no reason you can't answer them now, especially when you're asking the rest of us to do so.

[Vi]

Why do you have to be last to answer the questions? If you'll have to answer them anyway, there should be no reason you can't answer them now, especially when you're asking the rest of us to do so.

Because I'm special, or at least that's what my parents told me.
Actually, it has to do with people not conforming their answers to what they think I'm looking for.

I interfere with the transmission of information? What do you mean?

The first item here.

[James.Denholm]

Well, that's the thing. If Vi has done what I think he's done, these questions have been structured carefully so that only Vi really knows how to interpret them. So we give him a tonne of information, and he gives nothing back.

It's all a conspiracy... Can't you see? Can't you see?! *Grabs tin foil*

Higher psychologie, I knew it. Er.., eh?
What do you think about Porkens opinion this being a smokescreen?

It's not conspiracy-theory enough, but it is somewhat plausible. I can imagine the scum doing that, generating enough talk to distract. If true, then Vi's plan is thouroughly... buggered.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

1. How many games have you played to completion on this site?
none....I join here a long time ago but I play in different site (earth2025 clan's forum)
2. Do you play Mafia on other sites? If so, what is different about those sites vs. here?
read section 1. it's nice to play with new "stranger"
3. Do you consider yourself an experienced player?
there are still better player
4. Which other players in this game have you played with in the last six months?
NOONE
5. Do you prefer to be Town, scum, or third party? Why?
Scum.it's sometimes annoying to find people lynch you when you are town
different story if you are scum:D
6. Who is your favorite fictional character, and why?
-
7. How many scum do you think are in this game?
3-4
8. Why are you filling this survey out?
just wanna see people's response
9. Do you think this survey will be useful in finding scum?
perhaps
10. Am I more likely to be Town or scum in creating this survey?
51%scum 49%town
11. Is English your first language?
NO.as you see I'm chinese
12. What scumtell have you found to be most effective?
honestly I don't know

@vi: Please fill out your own survey. If you seriously contend that this information helps the town, you shouldn't have a problem doing this yourself.

I've already said I would when everyone else has. I'll even lower the bar and go when everyone has had the chance to do it or not do it.

@vi: dumb head.....it is hard to get EVERYONE do the survey! so you better start fill out your own survey

vote : sigma

[Vi]

@vi: dumb head.....it is hard to get EVERYONE do the survey! so you better start fill out your own survey

The dumb head would remind you that I'm still waiting on imaginality and Y.C.

Why sigma?

[Tjoe Min Ja]

perhaps because he is curious of your answer as well...

[imaginality]

1. How many games have you played to completion on this site?

11. (And 2 other games that were abandoned.)

2. Do you play Mafia on other sites? If so, what is different about those sites vs. here?

I play on EpicMafia at times. Games there are real-time and play focuses a lot around optimal use of power roles, since the set-ups are all open and mostly power-role heavy. Also they're generally night-start.

3. Do you consider yourself an experienced player?

Sometimes. It depends on the context of the question.

4. Which other players in this game have you played with in the last six months?

I played with Porkens in Mini 711 (he was scum, I was town, game was abandoned), and with Vi in Newbie 733 (he was town, I was town, scum won). I've played on EM a few times with our mod RedCoyote.

5. Do you prefer to be Town, scum, or third party? Why?

I've been town every game aside from one on here so far, so I'd like to be scum or third party a bit more just for variety.

6. Who is your favorite fictional character, and why?

Luke Rhinehart, narrator and semi-fictional protagonist in 'The Dice Man'. Thought-provoking, inspiring and hilarious.

7. How many scum do you think are in this game?

I doubt there are more than 4 or fewer than 3.

8. Why are you filling this survey out?

I've nothing to hide, and maybe it might help others get a better read on me.

9. Do you think this survey will be useful in finding scum?

Perhaps, though the reactions to it are likely to be/have been as useful as the answers to it.

10. Am I more likely to be Town or scum in creating this survey?

Null-tell. More likely to be an attention-seeker.

11. Is English your first language?

Yes.

12. What scum-tell have you found to be most effective?

On here, pass - I haven't looked back on my games to compare/assess the tells objectively, and subjectively, there isn't one in particular that stands out above the others. On EM, "Why me?" seems to be consistently useful as a scum-tell.

[Porkens]

@Porkens, how is this different from the questions I asked in newb 803? It was not a survey, but it where questions not with the game itself related. Like how did you discover mafia, or importance of the RVS stage. It gets a game out of RVS and I would see it as a good thing happening to a game.

Why is the survey of Vi suspicious. And the questions I asked at that time not? Is it being a survey a big thing? (I was scum, but at that time you did not suspect me at all)

1. You draw a similarity between your play in that Newb game with Vi's play here.
2. You say I didn't suspect you for that play in that game.
3. You were scum.
4. Wouldn't you expect that I'd learn from my mistake?

[Porkens]

p.s. we are google superstars now, check it out:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp& ... bfff7f9103

[James.Denholm]

@vi: dumb head.....it is hard to get EVERYONE do the survey! so you better start fill out your own survey

The dumb head would remind you that I'm still waiting on imaginality and Y.C.

Why do you feel the need to only answer your own question after everyone else has? Lead by example.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

waiting for vi

[Y.C]

1. I will not participate in the survey.

2. The attempt to bind participation in the survey to any aspect in the game itself is problematic to say the least.

3. Nonetheless, this business, although irritating to the extreme, is not
indicative of anything beyond itself. I do not take Vi to be scum (yet).

4. This, however, I do have a problem with:

I acknowledge that I like ruining other peoples' fun

Delibaretly admitting this either conceales a desire to get lynched, being a jester, or is rude in the extreme. So much in fact, that I will move my vote to her if she does not stop this side-tracking. I will sacrifice a townsperson on the principle that such rudeness should not go unpunished and that I do not wish to have any contact with self-declared trolls.

[Vi]

Generic thank you message goes here.

1. How many games have you played to completion on this site?

A lot

2. Do you play Mafia on other sites? If so, what is different about those sites vs. here?

I occasionally play on another site with a very small pool of players and much shorter Days.

3. Do you consider yourself an experienced player?

Yes

4. Which other players in this game have you played with in the last six months?

Porkens and jammer. I was in a game with Cruciare for all of four pages at the beginning of the year.

5. Do you prefer to be Town, scum, or third party? Why?

Town. Much less to worry about that way.

6. Who is your favorite fictional character, and why?

Tough decision. Hobbes from Calvin and Hobbes is definitely on the list.

7. How many scum do you think are in this game?

3

8. Why are you filling this survey out?

I'm kind of obligated to

9. Do you think this survey will be useful in finding scum?

Yes. It already has been.

10. Am I more likely to be Town or scum in creating this survey?

I don't think I'm the right person to be answering this one.

11. Is English your first language?

Yes.

12. What scumtell have you found to be most effective?

Active lurking, aka skirting by.

Results are being compiled; please hold...

[Vi]

Okay, these are the results. I'll begin by explaining the survey.

Questions 1-3 were related to each player's experience. This is an obvious part of any baseline meta read.

Question 4 pertains to which other players you may have a meta read on, which is a fancy way of saying you have better-than-zero idea of what they might do in this topic.

Question 5 is the first one where I push the envelope and get an idea of what people like best about Mafia, or in other words, what I can expect to see them do in this game as either alignment. Wishy-washy answers of Town would be something to press on as scum nervous about tying themselves to being scum.

Question 6, the infamous fictional character question. In the same line as Question 5, most people will choose their favorite fictional character based on them thinking or acting the same way on some level. Plus if nothing else it's something nice to know about you, and there's really no harm in knowing that.

Question 7, about how many scum are in this game. This question is only there to make scum object to it as outguessing the setup. 3 is the standard answer.

Questions 8 through 10 are related to the survey itself, as I expected people to wtf about it. Of course, there's kind of a Catch-22 that people who don't think the setup would help wouldn't fill it out in the first place, but my initial expectation would be that unless there's a valid reason to object to the entire survey (and it had better be good), a disbelieving Townie would at least answer honestly here.

Question 11 is very important because people who do not speak English as a first language are more likely to be misunderstood, which can lead to awkward situations in the future if they mess up their English.

Question 12 was originally intended to see whether anyone would actually commit their own scumtells later; however, I completely understand people not wanting to tell at this point and find that answer acceptable.

-------

Now for some reads.

DeathRowKitty's answers provide me zero information. This is partly because to a degree he couldn't answer a lot of them; however, the terse nature of his answers keep him at neutral for now.

I have no problem with jammer's answers and would like for Porkens to explain why he's picking on jammer.

Unless Porkens has finally gone over the edge and needs to be sent to the nut house (admittedly a possibility ), I'm interpreting his objection to my survey as a way to stir up reactions to it without particular malice about it (see obvious sarcasm in "In the literally thousands of games I've played here"). The reasons he listed for why the survey is anti-Town are inadequate for reasons I've started to touch on, but to a degree I suspect that's the point.
So my read on Porkens is entirely dependent on what reactions he has found and his judgment on them. Of course, if he claims that his objections were serious the whole time, he's full of crap.

It's very tempting to say that Cruciare's disappearance after I asked some very direct questions is telling, but I know better.
For now, considering that this sort of behavior is nicely in line with the Cruciare I remember from Time Abuse Mafia and judging from still being a Goon he hasn't played much here since then, I'll have to go with a slight Town read.

James.Denholm initial flippant response feels like Town who either doesn't have any idea what he's talking about and/or underestimates me. For instance,

Seriously, what the hell does our favourite fiction character have to do with anything? And if it does have something to do with something, what's to stop me from lying? I could say, for example, Harry Potter, when I mean, for example, Marcus Fenix! You probably don't even know who that is!

Do you mean this Marcus Fenix?
His continued attempts to discredit this survey have shaken this initial read. I'm keeping an eye here.
Also, while I'm here.

Why do you feel the need to only answer your own question after everyone else has? Lead by example.

Actually, it has to do with people not conforming their answers to what they think I'm looking for.

I'm definitely assuming English is your first language. Please read before you attempt to discredit something in an attempt to look cool. Thank you.

sigma, like DeathRowKitty, doesn't have much to go on based on not having any completed games. The responses feel vaguely Town; however,

9)

[Do you think this survey will be useful in finding scum?]

Yes -- whether or not it's answered by scum.

I'd like to know who you find suspicious based on this, considering you random voted in the same post.

Col. Cathart's answers strike me as coming from an experienced perspective, which makes sense given he's played offsite. However, the answers are fully open, which I approve of. I would like to know who he thinks is scum at this point.

Tjoe Min Ja (TMJ) has an interesting response to 5, although it's not useful at this time. Other than that, it's not opportunistic anywhere. Null, slight positive read.

imaginality... oh, oops. Add imaginality to the list of players I've played with recently.
I would like to see who imaginality finds suspicious at this point. The answers are nice; the vote is absent. (For instance, why not vote Y.C. in your first post instead of FoSing him?)

Y.C.'s answers are throwing red flags everywhere, and I'm not just talking about not participating in the survey.

2. The attempt to bind participation in the survey to any aspect in the game itself is problematic to say the least.

You don't have a leg to stand on. Explain yourself, now.

3. Nonetheless, this business, although irritating to the extreme, is not indicative of anything beyond itself. I do not take Vi to be scum (yet).

I don't believe this waffle. If my attempt to bind participation to the survey is

at least

problematic, wouldn't it suggest that I'm being deliberately anti-Town? At this stage in the game, isn't that worth a vote?

I acknowledge that I like ruining other peoples' fun

Delibaretly admitting this either conceales a desire to get lynched, being a jester, or is rude in the extreme. So much in fact, that I will move my vote to her if she does not stop this side-tracking. I will sacrifice a townsperson on the principle that such rudeness should not go unpunished and that I do not wish to have any contact with self-declared trolls.

"rude in the extreme"? Why thank you
The quote from me is an obvious joke in a similar vein to Porkens' "literally thousands of games". Now let's count the anti-Town statements here.
1) "jester" - Anyone who says the J-word in a game should be shot on sight. Considering this goes hand-in-hand with "conceals a desire to get lynched", it seems like I'm two parts Jester, one part troll. I like to think that I'm one part Troll.
In addition, the optimum play with Jesters is to lynch them anyway. So why waffle and not vote?
2) "sacrifice a townsperson" - Wait, wait, wait, and wait.

Did you just call me a townsperson without any qualifiers?

That's a slip. Thank you for making my life easy.
3) "such rudeness should not go unpunished" - Rudeness has nothing to do with my alignment. In addition, the quote you posted has nothing to do with me being rude. And last, if you want rude, let me get JDodge in here. I just joke around.

-----

And so we see that the survey did its job nicely~

Vote: Y.C.

(L-5)

[Tjoe Min Ja]

yay...

unvote

vote Y.C.

[jammer]

1. You draw a similarity between your play in that Newb game with Vi's play here.
2. You say I didn't suspect you for that play in that game.
3. You were scum.
4. Wouldn't you expect that I'd learn from my mistake?

1. There is a clear difference between my play there and Vi play here.(if that is your point)
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Uh?

Unvote: Vi; Vote afatchic

[Y.C]

The fact that despite my irritation resulting from Vi's poll I did not vote for her is due to the understanding that my extreme dislike of such things shouldn't cloud my judgement, and that I should wait for other signs. This has now become irrelevant, the reasons why I explain further on.

Also, my words about sacrificing a townsperson are meant as indication of intent, a principle, as stated in the same paragraph Vi quoted. It does not mean I view her as a Townsperson.
In fact, after further thought, I believe she is not a jester as well. I base this on these words:

In the literally thousands of games I've played here on Mafia Scum, I've seen this strategy many times. I've even seen it on Epic Mafia, where the people rely solely on power roles to win/loose games. In my vast experience, surveys such as this serve only to draw attention away from the real conversation. Actually, they do one more thing: the person writing the survey usually gets a free pass while the others squabble...

just like what happened when I played with Vi just a couple months ago in Tofu

. Such a situation is perfect for a third party SK, too, because they can just ride the wake of the chaos ship; SO enjoyable.

From this I infer that it is a regular tactic of her, and not a means of drawing animosity towards herself, which is the automatic result as I see it, but again - this is due to my extreme feelings about this kind of behaviour.
Lastly, Her "joking around" is not only indicative of immaturety, it displays disregard towards the other participants in this game. Thus, it is rude, very much so. But, as I stated previously, it has nothing to do with her alignment.

In conclusion, since she is not a jester, she is either mafia, which should be lynched, or third party/Townie, in which case I am ready to lynch her by the principle stated in my previous post.

Unvote

Vote Vi