Mini 839 -- Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[DeathRowKitty]

Honestly, I didn't think Vi had much reason for voting Y.C (thought I suppose it wasn't unwarranted at this stage of the game), but I

really

don't like his response. It seems like a bad attempt to justify a post that just sounded like a flame.

vote: Y.C

Also,

In conclusion, since she is not a jester, she is either mafia, which should be lynched, or third party/Townie

No...really?

[Y.C]

DeathRowKitty, what was bad in my justification of my actions?

Why do you consider my post a flame?

[DeathRowKitty]

I'll start with the second question. I consider it a flame because you said you don't consider Vi town, yet we should lynch him over asking us to answer a survey. Maybe you disagree, but sounds like a flame to me.

Now for your first question . Saying that "after further thought, I believe she is not a jester as well" is ridiculous, when there's nothing at all to indicate he is and it sounds like you're just covering your stupid mistake of bringing it up in the first place. The quote I mentioned in my last post is just pointless, especially when you stand by the fact we should lynch him anyway if he's town. For what? Making a survey? You ignored it anyway.

Allow me to summarize your post. "Okay, maybe Vi's not jester, but we should lynch him anyway because of what I mentioned in my last post (He asked us to fill out a survey)."

[Vi]

From this I infer that it is a regular tactic of her, and not a means of drawing animosity towards herself, which is the automatic result as I see it,

This is the first time I have done a survey like this.
Porkens is referring to

Adel

in Tofu Mafia. Adel was scum, and most certainly did not go unquestioned for a survey that was considerably more dubious than this one.

In conclusion, since she is not a jester, she is either mafia, which should be lynched, or third party/Townie, in which case I am ready to lynch her by the principle stated in my previous post.

Once again, let's count the anti-Town statements here.
1) "Vi is either Mafia or third party/Townie" - Um, what's left?
2) "or

third party

/Townie, in which case I am ready to lynch her by the principle stated in my previous post" - What principle? As far as I can tell you're voting me for being rude, which in this post itself you said was not indicative of my alignment! And apparently even though that's not a scumtell by your own admission, it's worth a policy lynch (that's what it is when you vote to lynch someone for reasons other than being scum). That is precisely what you are saying with

Also, my words about sacrificing a townsperson are meant as indication of intent, a principle, as stated in the same paragraph Vi quoted. It does not mean I view her as a Townsperson.

Cut by DeathRowKitty: ...basically that, but I don't want to throw this post away now that I've finished it

[Y.C]

Yes, since the survey has derailed this whole game into an obsessive discussion about it, shifting attention from anything else.
We cannot know about Vi's alignment, since evryone's attention is directed towards the aftermath of the survey.

In effect, this caused a general tormoil which is very harmful to the game in general, and the town in particular,by allowing the mafia and 3rd parties to stay relatively under the radar.

Since this effect is so extreme, I believe that such an action should be sanctioned by the most effective tool we have at our disposal: the lynch.
By lynching the survey initiator, we make a point about the validness of such actions in future games and are able to abandon this line in the present one.

The only other option I see is an appeal to the mod for the removal of Vi from the game. This will serve a similar purpose, but in my opinion he will not consent to this.

RedCoyote, if you consider this survey business enough grounds for removal from the game, please post a reply to the same effect.

I'm going to decline to take any action on the grounds that I've seen nothing that would warrant it.

P.S: Vi, if in the other game the survey was adele's, my point still stands. You did not invent this method simply to irritate others, you copied someone else's technique, a technique I find highly flawed and rude.

Also, Your alignment is no longer the issue. The only way to get out of the survey entanglement is to end it right here, either by a lynch or a stop to this line of discussion, which will not happen willingly, nor can it, under the circumstances.
Such a turn of events was predicted by Porkens in the passage I quoted.

[DeathRowKitty]

What exactly did the survey take our attention away from? Scumhunting? We're doing that right now. How does it allow scum and third parties to stay under the radar? Everyone has said something about the survey, by either completing it or refusing to do so and some responses (yours, in particular) have given us a good lead to start the game.

Also, I forgot to unvote before I voted.

unvote, vote: Y.C

[Vi]

I was typing a response, and once again DRK beats me to it.

Although I have a question. On what grounds should I be forcibly replaced/modkilled/etc.?

[Vi]

P.S: Vi, if in the other game the survey was adele's, my point still stands. You did not invent this method simply to irritate others, you copied someone else's technique, a technique I find highly flawed and rude.

Is this seriously part of your argument to discredit me?
You mean if in some other game someone else uses vote analysis and catches scum with it, it's

immoral

- never mind worthy of mod intervention - for you to use it in your next game?

[Col.Cathart]

Col. Cathart's answers strike me as coming from an experienced perspective, which makes sense given he's played offsite. However, the answers are fully open, which I approve of. I would like to know who he thinks is scum at this point.

No real suspect at the moment, since I'm quite limited on time to analyze everything right now, but for now those are going to be people who I'll ask below:

Jammer: I'm guessing that vote for Afatchic was random, because I cannot see any reason, why you should vote him (also, you didn't explain it). If that was a random vote then... Why? I thought we're already past the RVS...

Tjoe Min Ja: your last post raised an alarm in my head. What was the meaning of it? To me looks like a terrible attempt to make a bandwagon (at worst), or going for the thinest line of resistance, and voting 'because Vi said so' (at best), which is a sheep behavior.

Also, I'm curious, how Porkens will play this time. His play in Newbie 803 was pretty interesting (scummy on purpose to not get NKed as a Cop), so I'd like to see his other face...

[Y.C]

Vi, you should not be forcibly replaced. That was an alternative solution I presented to what I (though it seems I am alone in this view) perceive as a problem: the survey. I stated that I do not think the mod will go for it. I'm not so sure myself that he should, since you did not break any of his stated rules.

However, since the survey centered all discussion around itself, so that almost no other matter is discussed (Col.Cathart's last post raises some other minor issues, but it is a drop in an ocean of survey-centered matters), the only way I see to untie this knot, other than the one discussed above and which is problematic, is your removal from the game by the players. This can be achieved only by a lynch.
Thus- my willingness to sacrifice you, even if you are a townie (though you may be something else).

[jammer]

@Y.C, as I am not looking at it as anti-town. I am not cooperating with a policy lynch, and very doubtful you get enough followers for doing it.
Your stance on policy lynching the one that started the survey, is indeed anti-town. You focus your attention towards Vi the survey maker. And are not actively trying to hunt for scum. Would a simple way to remove most of this aftersurvey talk, not simply to remove you from the game?

Why the focus on the survey, and lynching the one that started it?
Any nasty experiences with surveys?

You vote someone, with as reason you do not like his play. And not becouse you think he is mafia. You start to talk about side-tracking, but who is the one side-tracking from finding scum?


@Col. C, When I looked at the playerlist, that was the moment I noticed Afatchic is in the game. For some reason noone noticed his absense in all of this. And I would like it if he started talking.

[Vi]

However, since the survey centered all discussion around itself,

I'm pretty sure the survey is only tangential to the accusations being levied against you. I barely mentioned once that you didn't take it.

In addition, if I get lynched and when I flip Town, do you really think that will make any talk about what I've done go away?

Especially

if I get lynched today as you like.

jammer, who is most suspicious at this point?
Col. Cathart, would you like to speak of the giant scummy elephant in the room?

[jammer]

I would say, YC as most scummy.

[Porkens]

Y.C.; I railed against the survey in such a way that I answered every single question presented in it.

I'm shocked and appalled that you grabbed on to the "it's derailing the whole game" idea.

Bringing up mod killing/etc. is too ludicrous to be serious, isn't it?

unvote; vote: Y.C.

till you convince me you were just having a laugh.


Jammer: I dunno, I was just talking out of my ass. Until lylo, you deserved to win that newbie game, btw.

afatchick is in this game?! If there's a dayvig, shoot him now...

Still watchin' that thing pretty close.

[Y.C]

Vi is clearly pushing for the final two votes on me.
But in the post before hers, jammer is making a good point: we should examine the other issues which have risen during the game and examine them.

jammer and Col.Cathcart, if you plan to vote for me I'm asking for 24 hours to analyze any relevant posts and post my thoughts on scummy behaviour.
Making a hasty lynch can't be in the interests of the town.

[DeathRowKitty]

You need 24 hours to analyze three pages? Seriously? Could you be more transparent? You just realized you don't actually have the support from Porkens you thought you did so you resort to an AtE? ("Vi is clearly pushing for the final two votes on me." (actually I think that's only 4 votes))

I would rather not see a 3-page Day 1, but it looks to me like we've caught scum.

[jammer]

I can not see why not give him the time. It can not hurt town, only help.

Also for purely selfish reasons I do not want to end this instantly, as another one is hitting deadline. And 2 games in night at the same time is rather lame, been there.

Also, 48 hours from now would be perfect, as a V/LA of 3 days is gonna hit by then.

@RC, V/LA, from wednesday till friday.

Noted.

[Vi]

I can not see why not give him the time. It can not hurt town, only help.

I don't entirely agree, but having J.D, imaginality, Col. Cathart, and afatchic show up would be nice.

[DeathRowKitty]

Okay, my last post wasn't worded that well. I wasn't suggesting we end the day immediately (though I was implying there was little need to extend the day much further). I actually do want to hear Y.C's analysis of what's been said. It could be helpful later, but it shouldn't take him 24 hours to analyze three pages. 24 hours just sounds like he's looking for more time to try to weasel his way out of this.


(Before someone calls me out on having English as my first language, my writing isn't always that clear. Sometimes, things I say make more sense in my head than in writing.)

[RedCoyote]

New Company, Waste Management, Not Mafia LLC, Acquires City Contract
Out of state firm can handle trash better than Texas Waste
By Reese Dortman
LYNCHEM TRIBUTE
Aug. 30, 2009, 7:43AM

The City Council moved, in record time, to push a bid from a recent corporation to the table. Councilwoman Lisa Swanson sponsored the bill, citing delays with her personal waste collection on December 25th and July 4th...

---

Vote Count 1.1

• Y.C

  (Vi - Tjoe Min Ja - DeathRowKitty - Porkens)
  
  jammer
  (Cruciare - sigma)
  
  Vi
  (Y.C)
  
  afatchic
  (jammer)
  
  DeathRowKitty
  (James.Denholm)

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch

[Y.C]

I requested 24 hours since it is past midnight in my timezone at the moment, and I have work tomorrow. Be reasonable, we all have obligations other than the game.

[Porkens]

YC, you aren't really in any danger of being lynched in the next 24 hours IMO.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

lol...there are still many to convinced

[Cruciare]

I was in a game with Cruciare for all of four pages at the beginning of the year

.

Vi, I'm flattered you remember me from before I got stranded in the middle of the Amazon and had to wrestle with piranhas to make my way back. But that was definitely before this year. As for your questions: 1) No I didn't think you were mafia (at the time of that question) because you had yet to vote me, and 2) If you believe I'm scum from my play so far, then there's no particular reason why I could convince you otherwise.

Yes, since the survey has derailed this whole game into an obsessive discussion about it, shifting attention from anything else.
We cannot know about Vi's alignment, since evryone's attention is directed towards the aftermath of the survey.

In effect, this caused a general tormoil which is very harmful to the game in general, and the town in particular,by allowing the mafia and 3rd parties to stay relatively under the radar.

Since this effect is so extreme, I believe that such an action should be sanctioned by the most effective tool we have at our disposal: the lynch.
By lynching the survey initiator, we make a point about the validness of such actions in future games and are able to abandon this line in the present one.

The only other option I see is an appeal to the mod for the removal of Vi from the game. This will serve a similar purpose, but in my opinion he will not consent to this.

RedCoyote, if you consider this survey business enough grounds for removal from the game, please post a reply to the same effect.

P.S: Vi, if in the other game the survey was adele's, my point still stands. You did not invent this method simply to irritate others, you copied someone else's technique, a technique I find highly flawed and rude.

Also, Your alignment is no longer the issue. The only way to get out of the survey entanglement is to end it right here, either by a lynch or a stop to this line of discussion, which will not happen willingly, nor can it, under the circumstances.
Such a turn of events was predicted by Porkens in the passage I quoted.

You know, I was going to scold Vi for giving players an excuse to fill their posts answering some questionnaire instead of voting each other, but this post was A+++ comedy gold, bro. And I mean that in the sense that I'm laughing

at

you. Wow, mod involvement? If I had something in my mouth at the time I would surely have been here cleaning my computer screen instead of writing this post.

My tentative vote is locked on you until you can convince me that you're mentally 'unique' instead of scum. Haha "alignment is no longer the issue", pure brilliance. Your logic would crash a toaster, Y.C. Still, I'd like for you to clarify what the hell it is you're talking about, so let's play this 24 hour game, shall we? Please give me satisfactory answers to the following within 24 hours, or my vote will materialise.

1) What do you think is wrong with Vi's survey?
2) Why do you believe the town is in 'turmoil' right now?
3) What do you think having Vi dead would achieve?
4) Is this goal more important than lynching scum?
5) If Vi was confirmed town, would you still want to lynch him/her?
6) Would you rather lynch: A) Scum, or B) Vi?

[imaginality]

I'm slightly wary of this YC wagon because I remember another time I saw someone randomly blow up at Vi as much as YC has - that was wiploc in Newbie 779, where both wiploc and Vi were town. Different situation, but I think turning this into a YC vs Vi -themed day would be a mistake. I'll look again at the case on YC in another day or so.

Reading through recent posts, I noticed something Col also picked up on, Tjoe Min Ja's vote on YC with no comment. Tjoe Min Ja could be scum trying to stay below suspicion by answering Vi's survey, then joining Vi's wagon. TMJ's other posts also hint at a bit of active-lurker-ish-ness. He had a chance to answer Col, but chose not to, so:

Vote: Tjoe Min Ja

Also, we have pretty short deadlines, so

Mod: Please can you prod afatchic?