Mini 882: Star Wars: Legacy of the Force Mafia(GAME OVER!)

[jasonT1981]

What is your Question.. I believe I have answered what you wanted me to answer.. you just said it wasn't adequate.

Now you are accusing me of avoiding discussion right? and now you wont answer questions put to you? Why?

What have I not answered and I will be happy to answer it for you.

[Nachomamma8]

If you weren't afraid or worried of having your joke misrepresented, then why did you post the scenarios in the first place?

I accused you of avoiding discussion for post 95, and I'm not answering your questions because you didn't answer mine, which I'm sure you'll rectify in the next post.

[jasonT1981]

I felt they where 2 of the possibilities that could hypothetically happen the line...I do not feel I was avoiding discussion in post 95..I actually asked a question in it that you also failed to answer

And is it scummy to put forth potential scenarios that may or may not happen down the line?

So now I have answered your question... I would like you to answer my few that are the above from post 95 and also the question in post 98 which was

Do you think me explaining I was not bread-crumbing during the RVS is proof, or at least very good evidence I am scum?

I look forward to reading your answer in the morning.

[jasonT1981]

I felt they where 2 of the possibilities that could hypothetically happen the line...I do not feel I was avoiding discussion in post 95..I actually asked a question in it that you also failed to answer

Meant to say down the line.

[Nachomamma8]

And is it scummy to put forth potential scenarios that may or may not happen down the line?

If you can't explain your reasoning for putting them there, yes.

OK Question... Do you think me explaining I was not bread-crumbing during the RVS is proof, or at least very good evidence I am scum?

You're the best lead I have right now.

[Nachomamma8]

I felt they where 2 of the possibilities that could hypothetically happen the line...I do not feel I was avoiding discussion in post 95..I actually asked a question in it that you also failed to answer

Again, you don't answer my question. The key word is WHY. WHY did you post those two possibilities?

[Kast]

@All-
Won't be around this weekend. Some quick thoughts.

-CM's defense post is scummy. He provides an extremely cursory review and appears to be defending his buddy for the sake of defending rather than defending due to disagreements with content. Possible that he is just a friend, but it sounds more likely that he's a scumbuddy.

-JT's Yoda post is extremely plausible as just flavor.

-The attacks on NM8 over not providing a link to an outside game are irrational and invalid.

To be clear,
-NM8 thinks JT was overly defensive. Is this correct?
-NM8 is being suspected for pushing a weak case. Is this correct?

Have a good weekend all.

[Kdub]

I have to side with Jason here. His initial "not a breadcrumb" statement did not seem suspicious to me. If he was afraid that people would accuse him of faking a breadcrumb, why would he even mention the Yoda thing in the first place? I think Nacho and Chinaman are making too much of it, and Nacho still hasn't said why he doesn't think Jason's explanation is adequate.

[PHANTOM]

Well thanks Zach for not really replying to my question, but I think you mentioned it somewhere, so I guess it's all good.

In terms of the Jason/Nachomamma discussion, I also have to side with Jason. I don't know what clan-related forums are, so I can't really comment on that topic.

The goal of scum is to look as protown as possible and avoid being lynched. So, it is to great benefit to the scum to cover up any mistakes they might have and be very careful in making sure that anything they say won't be misconstrued.

I agree with the first part, but I'm sure the second part applies to everyone, not just scum. It's also the town's responsibility to not make mistakes, like a cop claim or something like that, so that it won't affect them at night.

In addition to what Kast and Kdub said, I find Nachomamma's arguement weak, just like Zach's arguement on GM was weak. What I find more interesting about this discussion is how Nachomamma avoids Jason's questions, when I believe it was Jason who asked the questions first.

What happened to Bogre? It would be intersting to see what he thinks of this, since he's only posted a confirm message. But just to make sure he's here:

unvote, Vote: Bogre

[Zachrulez]

Well thanks Zach for not really replying to my question, but I think you mentioned it somewhere, so I guess it's all good.

The one about where I thought I was starting discussion with Almaster?

Post 48 I believe is when I start asking if he has any thoughts about the game.

You kinda got missed when the page changed over, sorry.

[Chinaman]

ok in regards to your postings.

1) You will notice I said potential scenarios... I did no where say these where the only two like you are trying to make out

2) Where have I tried to cut conversation? I have been trying to explain things and give my point. No where have I tried as you say to cut conversation.

Alright, point 1 i will take. You never said those 2 were the only possible scenarios. I will however reiterate that both the scenarios you posted included your death as an overall bad thing and something you were worried about (else you wouldn't have posted them). I have no problems with the Yoda quote, just that without anyone saying anything, you wanted to point out that it wasn't a breadcrumb. I don't think anyone thought that at all...just strange you brought it up unprovoked.

Point 2 however I will not take. I never said you were trying to cut conversation all together. What I meant was it looked as though you were bringing up something someone could possibly bring up in the future against you. That's why I said it seemed as though you were re-reading your own post to look for anything that someone could bring against you and tried to cut off that accusation before it even looked as though it would happen. Kinda like the fat kid who makes fun of himself before others can make fun of him. Do you get my meaning?

@All-
Won't be around this weekend. Some quick thoughts.

-CM's defense post is scummy. He provides an extremely cursory review and appears to be defending his buddy for the sake of defending rather than defending due to disagreements with content. Possible that he is just a friend, but it sounds more likely that he's a scumbuddy.

-JT's Yoda post is extremely plausible as just flavor.

-The attacks on NM8 over not providing a link to an outside game are irrational and invalid.

To be clear,
-NM8 thinks JT was overly defensive. Is this correct?
-NM8 is being suspected for pushing a weak case. Is this correct?

Have a good weekend all.

Wow, this one is fun. When you get back, please answer these.
-What defense post? I brought up something that struck me as odd and voted based on it. It so happens that Nacho has also noticed it. What exactly do you think I'm defending? From what I can tell, my post was pretty accusatory. Good luck backing that statement.

FOS

for that alone.
-I will agree that Jason's Yoda post was very plausible as flavor, not once did I say otherwise. What caught my eye was that he DIDN'T think people would see it as such...enough so that he felt the need to make sure we knew it wasn't a breadcrumb. Keep in mind here that nobody even once mentioned it as being even remotely that.
-It's funny you say I'm defending something or someone when you are clearly jumping to Jason's defense here. Why are you trying so hard to make the questions going toward Jason out to be "irrational" and "invalid"? It's very early in the game and this is damn near always how the game really gets started. Other than defense of Jason, where are you looking as possible scum? You mentioned me and Nacho being scumbuddies earlier in the post, where do you see the connection? What posts are directing you to think thus?

As far as clarification goes, I think Jason's breadcrumb post was very slightly scummy and is possibly meaningful. It's a defensive line without a reason to be defensive about it. Maybe defensive isn't even the right word. Perhaps overly careful. I personally don't believe town have as much a reason to be overly careful as scum do hense my post and vote. It's the only thing I could see at that point as being 'off' in my head. That being said, this post of yours that I have quoted is much more so. And as far as to why Nacho is being suspected, you are one of those who suspects him correct? Would you not know the answer to the question you asked? It sounds very leading, like you want to push everyone in this direction. At least that's the feeling I get from reading it.

Overall, I will wait to see your answers, but I'm not sure how you are going to even remotely back some of the things you said in this post without backtracking or lying.

Unvote

for now

[jasonT1981]

I felt they where 2 of the possibilities that could hypothetically happen the line...I do not feel I was avoiding discussion in post 95..I actually asked a question in it that you also failed to answer

Again, you don't answer my question. The key word is WHY. WHY did you post those two possibilities?

Jesus... What part of they where 2 hypothetical scenarios that potentially could happen do you not understand? I have explained it time and again... what part do you not understand.

[Nachomamma8]

Jason, you're still misunderstanding me. Why did you post them? I know they were hypothetical scenarios that potentially could happen, but WHY DID YOU POST THEM?

I have to side with Jason here. His initial "not a breadcrumb" statement did not seem suspicious to me. If he was afraid that people would accuse him of faking a breadcrumb, why would he even mention the Yoda thing in the first place? I think Nacho and Chinaman are making too much of it, and Nacho still hasn't said why he doesn't think Jason's explanation is adequate.

His initial "not a breadcrumb" statement seemed suspicious to me because it was so incredibly unprovoked, and it looked like an attempt to cover tracks. It is my theory that he said the Yoda thing FIRST, read Kast's statement, and got worried that it would be mistaken as a breadcrumb and quickly refuted it. Jason's statement is inadequate because he hasn't answered my question yet. When I ask why he posted something, he answered "I posted something" without giving a reason why.

Well thanks Zach for not really replying to my question, but I think you mentioned it somewhere, so I guess it's all good.

In terms of the Jason/Nachomamma discussion, I also have to side with Jason. I don't know what clan-related forums are, so I can't really comment on that topic.

The goal of scum is to look as protown as possible and avoid being lynched. So, it is to great benefit to the scum to cover up any mistakes they might have and be very careful in making sure that anything they say won't be misconstrued.

I agree with the first part, but I'm sure the second part applies to everyone, not just scum. It's also the town's responsibility to not make mistakes, like a cop claim or something like that, so that it won't affect them at night.

In addition to what Kast and Kdub said, I find Nachomamma's arguement weak, just like Zach's arguement on GM was weak. What I find more interesting about this discussion is how Nachomamma avoids Jason's questions, when I believe it was Jason who asked the questions first.

What happened to Bogre? It would be intersting to see what he thinks of this, since he's only posted a confirm message. But just to make sure he's here:

unvote, Vote: Bogre

Clan-related forums are forums made by a clan in order to discuss things and do clan-like things together, basically.

But the town shouldn't worry about things they say being misrepresented because they should be able defend themselves adequately and out the scum, no?

In my defense, I simply missed his questions. However, I was pretty sure he didn't miss mine because of the simply fact that he quoted them and still failed to answer them. Which means that he's either purposely ignoring my questions, or, more likely, he's just not reading what I'm saying. Do you find me scummy for my attack on Jason? Do you find Jason for his attack on GM?

[d3x]

I haven't gotten the chance to read the last big chunk of activity, but I saw a lurker Vote in there. That doesn't sit too well with me considering there are others in the same boat as Bogre. I'll ask some followups once I have the full read done; as I could've skimmed it wrong.

[AlmasterGM]

First: I'd like to hear more from I'd like to hear more from Bogre, cateraction, and snow bunny. The first two especially. .

Second: Re: jason v. nachomamma - I think jason is clearly winning the argument here. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with being careful about a breadcrub - if anything, it seems pro-town to me. Nachomamma's justification is predicated on this opaque, non-verifiable clan forum. We have no idea how good the people there are, how the rule mechanics function, or how the specific game played out.

Third: There is something MUCH more relevant that needs to be brought to attention:

-Two: So far, you have been very cautious as to explain everything you write and make sure we all know you weren't doing something nobody accused you of doing. Jedi are not so cautious IMO. Only the Sith would want to elaborate on and cut discussion of something they previously posted.

How does Chinaman know this is a game of Sith vs. Jedi? My role PM said absolutely nothing about Sith (no beating the Sith, no killing the Sith, no winning when all Sith were dead). Chinaman is obviously going to say, "I inferred it from flavor," but that's a hugh stretch. There are MANY different opposing factions in the expanded universe, and the Sith are actually one of the less prevalent ones. Hell, the flavor in MonkeyMan's first post suggests different factions. I think Chinaman has insider information and a specific win condition that is different from the town's.

There had better be a good explanation for this ASAP.

Vote: Chinaman.

[Chinaman]

LOL! REALLY????

Ok, so you answered your own damned question. Yes, I added Jedi for town and Sith for Scum in there for flavor. Of course you already knew that since you predicted the response perfectly. If you read it in the manner in which I wrote it (enough to tell me the answer I am giving you), why are you trying this hard to make it into a Sith-tell? If you really wanna know what I see in the battles of Star Wars, I see Sith vs Jedi. Sith pull the strings and are considered evil (ie. scum) where-as Jedi are the light and good side of the battle (ie. town). Pretty fricken elementary if you ask me.

I read this and I am at a loss for your play here. YOU think that Jason's Yoda-not-a-breadcrumb comment is harmless then you pull THIS out? WOW. That's all I have to say. Maybe Jason was right to point out something he wrote early on as not a breadcrumb before someone like you could get a hold of it.

Please explain to me how you see Jason's posts about his comment not being a Yoda breadcrumb is somehow silly yet you think that my equating Jedi vs Sith to be similar enough to Town vs Scum to post in that manner is "MUCH more relevant". This is a complete contradiction in the same post! lol!

As someone once posted to me: "There had better be a good explanation for this ASAP".

[Chinaman]

Hell, if anything, the Mods flavor suggesting different factions would make my comments of 1 side vs the other even more townie, would it not? It's Town/Jedi/Overall-good-guys vs the evil trying to kill us off. It doesn't matter how many factions are out there if they are all trying to kill me does it?

[AlmasterGM]

LOL! REALLY????

Your attempt to dismiss the case by making it into a joke is noted.

Ok, so you answered your own damned question

Noted again.

Yes, I added Jedi for town and Sith for Scum in there for flavor. Of course you already knew that since you predicted the response perfectly. If you read it in the manner in which I wrote it (enough to tell me the answer I am giving you), why are you trying this hard to make it into a Sith-tell? If you really wanna know what I see in the battles of Star Wars, I see Sith vs Jedi. Sith pull the strings and are considered evil (ie. scum) where-as Jedi are the light and good side of the battle (ie. town). Pretty fricken elementary if you ask me.

It's actually not, as you put it, "fricken elementary." If you've read any of the extended universe books, you'll know that a good chunk of them have nothing to do with the Sith. Hell, even the movies don't revolve around the Sith. Star Wars isn't all about Jedi and Sith - there are other characters, and I'm sure that the other town players are aware of this. However, if you don't have the pro-town role PM (as I suspect), you wouldn't be aware that the enemy of the town was not specified in the pro-town PM. You would simply presume we knew it was "Jedi vs Sith" (that's you, the Sith) and talk about it. Which is what you did. Which is why I suspect you

Obviously you aren't going to mount any sort of response other than what I predicted, so I don't need to hear anything else from you on the issue (unless you want to comment, of course). I'll leave it to others to agree or disagree. Also, I'm unsure of why me being able to predict arguments makes my arguments go away - maybe I'm just good at preemption.

I read this and I am at a loss for your play here. YOU think that Jason's Yoda-not-a-breadcrumb comment is harmless then you pull THIS out? WOW. That's all I have to say. Maybe Jason was right to point out something he wrote early on as not a breadcrumb before someone like you could get a hold of it.

Yes, he was right to point it out.

Hell, if anything, the Mods flavor suggesting different factions would make my comments of 1 side vs the other even more townie, would it not? It's Town/Jedi/Overall-good-guys vs the evil trying to kill us off. It doesn't matter how many factions are out there if they are all trying to kill me does it?

No, it does not make you more town. There are lots of different enemies to choose from - Imperial remnant, Yuuzhan Vong, random bad guys, whatever. Pulling "Sith" out of the hat makes me believe you had it in your role PM.

[d3x]

Let me start off by saying

UnVote:Chinaman

How does Chinaman know this is a game of Sith vs. Jedi?

That's a good catch, but I'm ok with his posted reasoning for now. It's definitely something to keep in mind for later, though.

I think Chinaman has insider information and a specific win condition that is different from the town's.

This does concern me a bit, though. I know the connotation is that he has

Scum

insider info, but I can't help but get a bit of a RoleFishing feel to this statement.

On to my previously discussed topic...

What happened to Bogre? It would be intersting to see what he thinks of this, since he's only posted a confirm message. But just to make sure he's here:

unvote, Vote: Bogre

So I caught up and read the quoted post again and I can now officially say that I don't like it. First, youpersonally only have a confirmation, an RVS Vote, a single content post and then your Vote post on the same person as your RVS Vote, coincidentally. cateraction has the exact same posting history as Bogre and Snow_Bunny isn't too far ahead {with an RVS Vote and a pic}. Why did you single out Bogre for this?

Along those lines...

@Alm-

I'd like to hear more from I'd like to hear more from Bogre, cateraction, and snow bunny. The first two especially.

Why the first 2 over S_B? What makes her any different?

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote Count
With 12 alive, 7 to lynch
JastonT1981(1) - Nachomamma8
Kast(1) - Snow_Bunny
Bogre(1) - PHANTOM
Chinaman(1) AlmasterGM
Nachomamma(2) - Kdub, Zachrulez
Not Voting(6): Bogre, JasonT1981, cateraction, d3x, Chinaman, Kast

[AlmasterGM]

Why the first 2 over S_B? What makes her any different?

S_B has at least RVS'd. The other two haven't done anything but confirm. I'm definitely not a fan of S_B right now, though.

This does concern me a bit, though. I know the connotation is that he has Scum insider info, but I can't help but get a bit of a RoleFishing feel to this statement.

Not really getting this. Mafia is a game of informed minority vs majority - although townies sometimes get additional powers, they rarely get additional information (for obvious reasons). Because of this, I don't see how the rhetoric "insider information" is loaded w/ a rolefish at all.

[Kdub]

I have to side with Jason here. His initial "not a breadcrumb" statement did not seem suspicious to me. If he was afraid that people would accuse him of faking a breadcrumb, why would he even mention the Yoda thing in the first place? I think Nacho and Chinaman are making too much of it, and Nacho still hasn't said why he doesn't think Jason's explanation is adequate.

His initial "not a breadcrumb" statement seemed suspicious to me because it was so incredibly unprovoked, and it looked like an attempt to cover tracks. It is my theory that he said the Yoda thing FIRST, read Kast's statement, and got worried that it would be mistaken as a breadcrumb and quickly refuted it. Jason's statement is inadequate because he hasn't answered my question yet. When I ask why he posted something, he answered "I posted something" without giving a reason why.

I just don't think he would have gone back and drawn attention to it if he were scum trying to cover it up. If Kast had pursued it, he could have said it was just flavor, much like what Almaster did. I feel like scum would be more likely to just ignore it and hope it passes.

Do you feel that the two hypothetical scenarios he posted were unrealistic or not inclusive enough of other likely possibilities?

[Zachrulez]

I think Chinaman has insider information and a specific win condition that is different from the town's.

This does concern me a bit, though. I know the connotation is that he has

Scum

insider info, but I can't help but get a bit of a RoleFishing feel to this statement.

Can you elaborate more on this please?

[d3x]

I don't see how the rhetoric "insider information" is loaded w/ a rolefish at all.

Well I didn't say that it was "loaded" with RoleFishing, I said "a bit of a RoleFish". It's a question of degrees, but that's ultimately a semantics debate that won't get us anywhere, imo.

although townies sometimes get additional powers, they rarely get additional information (for obvious reasons)

ProTown PRs gain additional information throughout the game. Also, just because something rarely happens doesn't mean you can discount it as a possibility. As this is a Theme Game with the potential for nonstandard Roles, we simply don't

know

if anyone has additional information.

My point was that it felt a bit like could be a RoleFish.

Did that cover your request as well, Zach?

[Zachrulez]

He was talking about how he believes Chinaman has a different win condition. That is not quite the same thing as power role speculation.