Mini 1148 -- Spare Me Mafia (Game Over)

[Duplicity]

Internet Stranger, I never stated that it would be the same pair voting each other to save. There is likely more then two mafia meaning they can switch it around to a degree that it would be hard to notice. Even if we were to notice it, apart from multiple vigs which make setups highly swingy there doesn't seem to be a way to counter it. Thus why I'm attempting to speculate about what hindrance RC put in place - That is after all what this entire discussion based around CK's claim is about.

You're attempting to put value on keeping someone alive - Look at it this way if you have two FoS's, would you prefer both of them lynched or one, the choice would be obvious. The more lynches that occurs throughout the day means the more chances we have of lynching mafia, think of it this way:
If we lynch one person per day and mafia shoot one person per night, ratio of town choices of who gets lynched to mafia choices would be 1:1.
If we lynched two people per day and mafia shoot one person per night, ratio of town choices of who gets lynched to mafia choices would be 2:1.

Umbrage, I completly agree questioning things is perfectly fine and pro-town, I have no issue with that whatsoever, that's not exactly what people are doing though. People are stating intent to lynch someone based on their claim without discussion revolving around it.

R.

[Internet Stranger]

Youre not listening to me Duplicity.

IS: "Chesskid is asking us to kill extra people per day just to keep him alive"
Duplicity: "We should let at least two people die today anyways"
IS: "Great idea! I nominate Chesskid and Duplicity for death"

Duplicity: "RC must have put some sort of hindrance on the scum. I wonder what it could be. I wonder wonder..."
IS: "Yea, like needing two votes to survive (points at Chesskid)"


So now youre saying there are more than three mafia? (Chesskid plus the swap voters) What are you expecting? a 4 man team? 6 man team? Half the town? really? You dont think we will notice sparing patterns?

You keep saying that you dont want chaos and maximum death, but youre deliberately throwing all sorts of nonsense out there and trying to keep Chesskid alive, which ensures maximum death. So which is it dude, you keep contradicting yourself.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, I completly agree questioning things is perfectly fine and pro-town, I have no issue with that whatsoever, that's not exactly what people are doing though. People are stating intent to lynch someone based on their claim without discussion revolving around it.

Lynch someone without discussion? That's what you think Internet Stranger is doing? The very nature of this game means that it is almost impossible to get a quicklynch on anyone.

And why Internet Stranger?

CHESS YOU ALREADY HARDCLAIMED ANTI-TOWN

DONT FUCKIN PRETND YOURE GOING TO LIVE PAST TODAY

Why isn't that a sign of someone trying to kill a player based on solely his claim without discussion?

Oh right, because you've been kissing Fate's ass all game. I haven't forgotten how you proposed we should all play the game like Fate is playing it.

[Internet Stranger]

Wow, if there is one thing im doing is trying to generate discussion.
Duplicity is doing his damned best to stifle it and at the same time trying to keep Chesskid alive.

Look at Duplicity, he keeps talking in circles.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy, I'm still not understanding your FoS on him based around his claim. Since you seem to still be of the opinion that his role claim is something put in place to prevent mafia from just cross-sparing lets speculate. Sridicilous. Assume Chesskid is mafia and gets lynched, what's preventing his partners from just cross-sparing in future days? The fact that his role claim doesn't prevent mafia from abusing game mechanics and winning via doing so means that it likely isn't what was put in place for prevention purposes. This means that the fact he claims to need two votes on him would be considered a null-tell to some degree.

1. In this game, there is an obvious mafia strategy - that of scum voting for each other a lot. This makes the scum potentially extremely hard to lynch.
2. Therefore, the mod will have taken some countermeasures to prevent such a strategy.
3. While it could not be the only countermeasure for the reason you set out (barring a scumteam of size 2; perfectly possible in multiscum), having one scumbag need two votes to be saved would be an

excellent

countermeasure.
4. It is pretty likely that that's exactly what chesskid's role is doing in the game.

Your argument that it's not enough on it's own just doesn't make sense. If we were in a game where a large, powerful scumteam was around, and I claimed vig, the same argument could be used to say "a single vig just isn't enough power to stop this scumteam; so that's probably a fakeclaim". chesskid's role would be great as one of a few measures to weaken scum, and so that may well be what's going on here.

[Duplicity]

I'm going to take a step away after this post because I don't want to say anything that could get me mod-killed.

IS, You're attempting to say that two people dying today is an issue. It's not. Him stating two people need to die as his claim states is a null-tell as pointed out by stating how it doesn't prevent mafia sparing each others mechanic. Chesskids role doesn't prevent mafia from cross-sparing unless you think there's only two mafia. If anything it's Fishys role-claim that has a bigger chance of breaking the cross-sparing tactic meaning if you're voting purely due to claims you'd be attacking him, however you're not even taking any notice to it. In a setup this size, I would expect three, maybe a small chance at four mafia.

Umbrage, I'm stating Chesskids claim was instantly attacked rather then questioned. Reference post numbers 51, 59 and 63. Nowhere did I state IS specifically, although I think his logic and reasoning is [Redacted], I do have a slight town read on him.

IS, discussion is good, attacking soley due to a claim is not. Perhaps re-read the last 20 posts and you'll change your mind about what has/is occuring.

Fishy, you're attempting to compare apples to oranges. RC states there's no way that end-game can be broken, this means that regardless of what happens we should always have a legitimate chance of winning. If you believe that Chess's claim is one to weaken the mafia, what do you speculate that others may be.

R.

[Umbrage]

1. In this game, there is an obvious mafia strategy - that of scum voting for each other a lot. This makes the scum potentially extremely hard to lynch.
2. Therefore, the mod will have taken some countermeasures to prevent such a strategy.
3. While it could not be the only countermeasure for the reason you set out (barring a scumteam of size 2; perfectly possible in multiscum), having one scumbag need two votes to be saved would be an excellent countermeasure.
4. It is pretty likely that that's exactly what chesskid's role is doing in the game.

Good point. Then again, isn't it possible that scum having no vote is another way to balance this?

Also: Why the hell are people saying that there are likely two scum teams? Duplicity's been doing this a lot, is he crazy or have I missed something?

Chesskids role doesn't prevent mafia from cross-sparing unless you think there's only two mafia.

You're assuming that one scum requires two votes to survive. If there are three scum, this means that it'll take the other two scum to vote the scum that needs two votes in order to save that scum, and that means the two-vote scum has to choose which lackey to save. In other words, they can't all protect each other. They have three votes between them and need four. Besides, if two players are both voting for the same person, WE WOULD FUCKING NOTICE.

In fact, in this scenario, the BEST play for a two-votes-required scum would be to convince the town to spare him, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT CHESSKID3 IS DOING. Therefore Internet Stranger has EVERY RIGHT to question this claim.

Nowhere did I state IS specifically, although I think his logic and reasoning is [Redacted], I do have a slight town read on him.

What the fuck? All you've done so far is whine about how he's going after CK3, and now you say you don't even think he's scum? What the fuck have you been then? Who do you find scummy? You haven't said. You've been giving the appearance of scum hunting, but really all you're doing is buddying up to Fate, speculating about multiple scumteams, and defending chesskid3. I don't see a pro-town reason to do any of those things.

[chesskid3]

softclaim timeeeeeeeeeeeeee


i'm not getting lynched today

[Umbrage]

softclaim timeeeeeeeeeeeeee


i'm not getting lynched today

[chesskid3]

[Duplicity]

Good point. Then again, isn't it possible that scum having no vote is another way to balance this?

Yes, but no one has questioned Fishys claim.

Also: Why the hell are people saying that there are likely two scum teams? Duplicity's been doing this a lot, is he crazy or have I missed something?

Hasn't been mentioned apart from my first post of the game, where I attempted to get discussion rolling.

You're assuming that one scum requires two votes to survive. If there are three scum, this means that it'll take the other two scum to vote the scum that needs two votes in order to save that scum, and that means the two-vote scum has to choose which lackey to save. In other words, they can't all protect each other. They have three votes between them and need four. Besides, if two players are both voting for the same person, WE WOULD FUCKING NOTICE.

No, lets use a scenario to show what I mean. Lets say in this scenario there's 3 mafia, there's no vig. One of the three mafia require two votes to live, the other two don't. Mafia A votes mafia B. Mafia B votes mafia A. Mafia C is the one that needs two votes can do whatever the fuck he wants. This mafia gets lynched. Mafia A and B repeat until game end where they win. Therefore there has to be something put in place to prevent it, and it's not what Chesskids roleclaim involves. So either, you think there's two mafia in the setup and Chesskids roleclaim is what is preventing mafia from crossvoting winning or there's three mafia and Chesskids role is irrelevant.

What the fuck? All you've done so far is whine about how he's going after CK3, and now you say you don't even think he's scum? What the fuck have you been then? Who do you find scummy? You haven't said. You've been giving the appearance of scum hunting, but really all you're doing is buddying up to Fate, speculating about multiple scumteams, and defending chesskid3. I don't see a pro-town reason to do any of those things.

Simple. Sparking discussion, forcing people to make stands to attain reads. As for who I think is scummy, I have gut-scum read on someone but I want to discuss it with G before I announce it.

[Fate]

Wait...it only takes ONE spare vote for someone to survive? I thought it had to be a majority likea lynch, only for every player

FFFUUUUUU

CHESSKIDS BUDDIES CAN VOTE TO SAVE HIM ANY DAMN TIME THEY PLEASE

[chesskid3]

the same fate yelling at people for not knowing how the rules work
wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Fate]

Whatever, no ones going to save you without extreme scrutiny from me.

If you're gonna claim mason now might be the time to go for it

[chesskid3]

i'm softclaiming
not hardclaiming.

obviously there is good to balance out the bad of my role

[chesskid3]

did we learn anythign from last time though, fate?
DID WE?

[Fate]

NOPE.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy, you're attempting to compare apples to oranges. RC states there's no way that end-game can be broken, this means that regardless of what happens we should always have a legitimate chance of winning. If you believe that Chess's claim is one to weaken the mafia, what do you speculate that others may be.

R.

It doesn't really matter - chess's claim is clearly something sensible to use, regardless of what more the mod would need to put in. Still, I enjoy setup speculation, so why not:

Spoiler: Rather pointless setup stuff

If I were balancing it, off the top of my head the sort of roles I'd consider would be:

Scum sided
- Two votes to spare
- Voteless
- Can't spare X restriction

Town sided
- Vig
- Vengeful
- Vote stealer
- Minus voter

The game is broken when no role exists which can stop the scum circle voting; I'd want either enough bad roles in the scum to make that unlikely, or enough good roles in the town.

Multiscum would also be helpful - possible crosskills are good, small scumteams are good - but it could be balanced without that.

More generally, the game is by default immensely scum sided compared with traditional mafia - I'd beef up the town/nerf the scum compared to a usual balanced setup.

I don't think RC has said anywhere that it's

impossible

for the game to be broken by endgame (at 3:2, say) - if that's the case the balancing act becomes much harder.

chess's softclaim is an interesting one. Looks townish.

[Umbrage]

Yes, but no one has questioned Fishys claim.

I think I just did. Nice try, though.

No, lets use a scenario to show what I mean. Lets say in this scenario there's 3 mafia, there's no vig. One of the three mafia require two votes to live, the other two don't. Mafia A votes mafia B. Mafia B votes mafia A. Mafia C is the one that needs two votes can do whatever the fuck he wants. This mafia gets lynched. Mafia A and B repeat until game end where they win. Therefore there has to be something put in place to prevent it, and it's not what Chesskids roleclaim involves. So either, you think there's two mafia in the setup and Chesskids roleclaim is what is preventing mafia from crossvoting winning or there's three mafia and Chesskids role is irrelevant.

OK, let's assume for a second that you're right, and the mod would never ever have made scum need 2 votes as a balancing mechanic. What makes you think CK3 isn't scum lying about needing 2 votes?

Simple. Sparking discussion, forcing people to make stands to attain reads. As for who I think is scummy, I have gut-scum read on someone but I want to discuss it with G before I announce it.

This isn't sparking discussion. It's limiting discussion. IS was sparking discussion. You tried to get him to stop.

"Rather pointless setup stuff"

UR DOIN IT RONG

[chesskid3]

IS WASNT SPARKING DISCUSSION
IS WAS SOAPBOXING YOU DIMWIT

[TonyMontana]

FoS: Fishy

For doing setup speculation, the mark of the beast.

[Umbrage]

IS WASNT SPARKING DISCUSSION
IS WAS SOAPBOXING YOU DIMWIT

CALL IT WHAT YOU WILL, IT'S NOT WHAT DUPLICITY IS SAYING IT IS.

[chesskid3]

IT WASNT HELPFUL IN ANY WAY

[vezokpiraka]

WTF is wrong with you people?

You made three pages of garbage. Fate come here and post good stuff.

[Fate]

I'm not posting good stuff...

Which is why its so weird Umbrage has a town read on me and is chainsawing people buddying up to me.

WALP.