Time Travel Mafia (Game Over)

[Tasky]

Not to sound smart, but in a confirmed one-faction game we were not going to beleive that a mafia would be night killed by themselves.
We would of known they were town.

omg. you are right (except for the 1-shot vig). then I guess making the janitor lynch-too was necessary.
I feel stupid now. maybe it was lynch-revives I was worried about after all.

[Exe]

I am so saddenned by Jil's play......

That quick-claim killed him SO HARD.

Also, I worked SO HARD to bus my scumbuddies because I would get legitimate reactions out of them (since they didn't know who I was) and then they no-flipped....


Sigh.

Also, I don't think my role was technically a traitor role...?

[Tragedy]

Town Suicide Bomber never sounds town anymore.

[Exe]

Town Suicide Bomber never sounds town anymore.

It's not that, it's that the OBVIOUS response to town suicide bomber is "Well then kill this person. One of you are probably scum so it's a good 1:1 trade."

Never ever ever claim suicide town anything as scum. Ever.

[imaginality]

Night-janitoring would still have had value for scum - although town would be pretty sure the victim was town-aligned, only scum would've known the target's role. Provides a nice fakeclaim opportunity if they successfully target the power roles.

[jilynne1991]

Ok, sorry, I was obviously squirming in the end, and I didn't know how to get out of it. Once again...scum loses a game because of me. *pats self on the back* Sorry, you guys! ;(

[GreyICE]

Not to sound smart, but in a confirmed one-faction game we were not going to beleive that a mafia would be night killed by themselves.
We would of known they were town.

omg. you are right (except for the 1-shot vig). then I guess making the janitor lynch-too was necessary.
I feel stupid now. maybe it was lynch-revives I was worried about after all.

Actually, I would have been very tempted to shoot janitor someone night 1, and shoot-janitor myself night 2 with that mechanic. And then be resurrected via time traveling roleblocker at some point.

Which would have really driven the town insane if they lost to it, but this is why roles like 'doctor,' 'vigilante,' 'roleblocker,' 'jailkeeper,' etc. would have been better ideas.

[RedCoyote]

Good game everyone! Thanks for running the game, Mod. You did a fine job. The setup was a bit over my head, but I should've known that coming in. Thanks especially to all the people that replaced in!

[Amrun]

Good game, everyone.

Tasky, I have a serious problem with being the only town pr to receive a sample vt role pm. I consider that bastard modding for sure. There was just no concrete reason to do it at all.

Other than that, I enjoyed the game. I don't blame town for lynching me; I played kind of scummily on purpose and then with the pm confliction, it made sense. I'm still smoothing out my PR play.

I just have to say FUCKING LOL ABOUT ME BEING RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING TROLOLOL. Zinger was scum and it was a lynch janitor.

[Tasky]

Tasky, I have a serious problem with being the only town pr to receive a sample vt role pm. I consider that bastard modding for sure. There was just no concrete reason to do it at all.

why would that be bastard modding?
nowhere there is a written or unwritten role that all PRs should have the same information.
exactly as I gave Trow the info about the goon PM, I gave you the info about the VT PM.

there was a very concrete reason for me to do that, I wanted to punish players who tried to outguess the setup.
never did I actually lie to a player, (It's not as if I had told you that all other town PRs would have the same information) you (most of the town) just made some too fast conclusions.
taken something for given which is not explicitly written in any rule is your mistake, not mine.

Actually, I would have been very tempted to shoot janitor someone night 1, and shoot-janitor myself night 2 with that mechanic. And then be resurrected via time traveling roleblocker at some point.

I think it's one of those very high risk/high reward things, I don't think I would have had the courage to do so (especially in a 2-man scumteam)

Which would have really driven the town insane if they lost to it, but this is why roles like 'doctor,' 'vigilante,' 'roleblocker,' 'jailkeeper,' etc. would have been better ideas.

Amrun was a doctor. Kcdaspot was a roleblocker/vig/bodyguard (which is a standard role) JOAT.
probably in hindsight, it would have been a little better had I made Kcdaspot a plain (time-traveling) vig. That would have also given the night-janitoring a little more significance.
I am happy to not have given smargaret a plain cop, though. In general I must say that I tend to like JOATs with standard powers more than one-purpose-roles. They add a little more strategy to the night game (without taking anything from the day)

[Kcdaspot]

"probably in hindsight, it would have been a little better had I made Kcdaspot a plain (time-traveling) vig."


;_;

i f you did my fucking gawd i'd rock this shit.

[smargaret]

The only reason you didn't lie to players was because Trow never died. I'd call death millers/godfathers bastard in any circumstance.

Giving Amrun the VT pm didn't prevent outguessing the mod, we just lynched town along with scum for it. I'd just put the PM in the first post of the rules - you give the scum access to everything, make it much harder for us to lynch Cworl for not getting the PM right because it's easier to excuse as paraphrasing, and send a message that you're doing what you can to prevent outguessing the mod.

[Tasky]

The only reason you didn't lie to players was because Trow never died. I'd call death millers/godfathers bastard in any circumstance.

Giving Amrun the VT pm didn't prevent outguessing the mod, we just lynched town along with scum for it. I'd just put the PM in the first post of the rules - you give the scum access to everything, make it much harder for us to lynch Cworl for not getting the PM right because it's easier to excuse as paraphrasing, and send a message that you're doing what you can to prevent outguessing the mod.

I didn't say that I wanted to

prevent

mod-outguessing (it was clear enough in the rules that you shouldn't try). I said I wanted you to

punish

for it (i.e. punishing you for not following the rules).
I think if town lynches a town player because they were trying to outguess the mod, that's their problem and their mistake. It was exactly for the various confusing thins in this game (which do in fact favor scum), that this game had so much town-power.

and in case you haven't looked at the Mod QT yet, scum

had

access to the Casual Bystander role PM. I would never let scum go into a game where they cannot reasonably claim anything at massclaim.

I can agree that death-millers/godfathers is the most borderline thing of this setup. It's the only thing that *could* have been considered a little bastard. I think, however, that the fact that Trow was told he was a dead miller made it acceptable. I would never had put a non-self-aware- death miller in the game.

[smargaret]

Say Trow claims death miller at L-1. Who believes him? Heck, say that he claims it at the start of the game - he gets lynched, he flips scum, and we have unnecessary WIFOM.

[Tasky]

Say Trow claims death miller at L-1. Who believes him? Heck, say that he claims it at the start of the game - he gets lynched, he flips scum, and we have unnecessary WIFOM.

is WIFOM=bastard?

[smargaret]

The point is more, you *would* have lied to us if Trow had died, and you gave him a role that made it more likely he would have died.

[Tasky]

The point is more, you *would* have lied to us if Trow had died, and you gave him a role that made it more likely he would have died.

it's the same as telling a cop his target is mafia, when in reality it is a miller (or framed by a framer). That would be lying too. But since it's not an arbitrary lie, but the effect of a role, it is not bastard.

of course the definition of "bastard" is quite subjective, this is why it is difficult to argue about it when there are clear borderline cases.

I created Tasky's Mafia Modding Manifesto exactly for this purpose, to clarify what in my books is considered bastard (everything breaking the manifesto) and what is not (everything which follows those rules). So when I mean bastard, I do not mean it is bastard in general (there are few such things that *everyone* would consider bastard), but bastard based on some (maybe arbitrary) criterions which I find to work well for me.
Unluckily when I designed this game, I hadn't yet though out and written down the manifesto, so declaring the game to be non-bastard could of course be considered a little vague, since what I meant by non-bastard is not necessarily what others will think. I am sorry if this different interpretation caused problems this game, I am definitely going to define this kind of borderline cases more precise the next games I will be running

Me writing that manifesto was somehow inspired by the problems that came up this regarding no-flips, but it was what I considered to be my personal guidelines all along.
(Note that this game did not totally adhere to it, as there were some secret mod-notes.) This is the one point where it is difficult to draw a clear line for me, so I think I will avoid that things in the future (hence why I forbid them in the manifesto). But there are of course some "light" instances where those mod-notes are ok. I think in hindsight I should have just told the traitor he would gain the mafia factional abilities once his partners died, as that would have avoided the problem.
I think one can almost always avoid secret mod-notes in a non-bastard game. as you might have noted, I define non-bastardness basically by the fact that everything that happens has to have a knowable (at least in theory) cause for the players.

[smargaret]

I would say that flips, unlike cops, are presumed to be sane, and thus death-whatevers are violations of the third comment.

[smargaret]

Also, http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=18076

[Faraday]

death millers are about as bastardly as possible...without directly lying to the player in their pm, you're very much lying to the rest of the town.

[Tasky]

ok. I guess I made a mistake then.
I apologize to all the players of this game, I had a different conception of bastardness.

I would say that flips, unlike cops, are presumed to be sane, and thus death-whatevers are violations of the third comment.

I do not agree with this, though.
Even if it can be considered bastard, it is not a violation of the manifesto (I'm not saying the manifesto is good or bad, just stating that it does not rule out wrong flips). As long as it's an effect of the role, it is not an arbitrary intervention of the mod.

[Amrun]

I don't really understand punishing players for assuming role PMs are standardized. But I enjoyed the set-up and don't think it was truly a big deal. I just disagree with you and wouldn't do that myself.

[MrTrow]

I indeed was a death-miller and i don`t see any problem with it (then again, i`m not that used to closed setups(and related site-meta) yet).
Story-wise (which is always the first thing that draws my attention when time-travel is involved) it made sense and a 'downside' to the information i had.

If i wouldn`t flip scum i probably would have revealed everything immediately.

The terrorist flipping Casual Bystander however with having most players (not: smarg,kcda and RC) having mod-confirmed that Casual Bystanders are not-mafia-alligned
might a different story, true the terrorist isn`t actually a casual bystander but still. (somewhat corrected by the detail the 'lie' hurts both factions)
To me the most telling thing is complains about the death miller, but not about the 'undecover 2' ability?, stuck i site-meta much?


As for the 'red-herring for mafia', it was 1 of the reasons for not claiming immediately.
Trying to get lynched by small majority d2/3 , get janitored, hoping the 'link up ability'(if any) was in the main team, keeping the claim options open was the main idea at that point.

When amrun seemed to be suggesting being able to detect the range of one`s timemachine(at least that`s what i made of it) it seemed like an interresting combo(read a new reason not to claim), as with my info it can detect scum(keeping it hidden somewhat longer could probably help me check amrun as well)
It`s also where i screwed up with the assumption that the scum-pr couldn`t have a personal timemachine.

Smarg, i assume it`s clear now why i considered you cleared for not believing in the janitor-situation, but turned around when you emphasised your believe in no-flip while discrediting my defence of you when the no-flip-scenario was about to be disproven.

[hasdgfas]

Fin