Time Travel Mafia (Game Over)

[imaginality]

Someone did mention that, Tragedy, but it doesn't answer my point. Here's how my thought process went:

1. "Since when did scum get time machines?"

This seemed a bit of an odd comment from you. To me it read like the thought behind it might be, "I'm scum. How do you know we have time machines?" or "I'm scum - but we only have one time machine." It reminds me of how SKs are more likely to comment on someone's comment about SKs. I freely admit this is a very speculative idea on my part, really nothing more than a hunch. But your reply to me just now hints more strongly at you having hidden knowledge:

2. "I never knew scum actually had time machines until someone had mentioned the plan."

Townies

still don't

know

scum have time machines. To a townie, Chronopie's comment ("After having thought about it, By rule 1.2.1, We need to include any dead mafiates at the top of every lynching list. It would be incredibly not funny to have a single surviving mafiate go back several days and take out the vig and/or doc, while reviving teammates.") doesn't tell them that the scum have time machines. A townie might guess, suspect, or expect the scum do; it certainly seems pretty likely to me. But your comment suggests you

know

they do

, which suggests you have extra knowledge about scum, i.e. you are scum.

Alternative phrases which wouldn't sound suspicious:

"I never thought scum had time machines until..."
"I didn't consider scum might have time machines until..."
"I only realised scum could have time machines when..."

[smargaret]

Chronopie is scum.

1. Chronopie
2. Amrun
3. Doom
4. Grey (for defense of Amrun - suspicious regardless of Amrun's flip, but moreso if Amrun flips town)
5. Ranger
6. Imaginality

[Amrun]

Smarg, why would grey look worse if I flipped town?

(I actually was in the process of re-reading him and he is scummier for it. I want to hear it from you, though.)

[GreyICE]

Chronopie is scum.

1. Chronopie
2. Amrun
3. Doom
4. Grey (for defense of Amrun - suspicious regardless of Amrun's flip, but moreso if Amrun flips town)
5. Ranger
6. Imaginality

Thanks.

I wasn't aware I was playing with a bad DrippingGoofball.

Mind explaining ANYTHING you post in this thread, smarg?

[smargaret]

Amrun - scum 101 is to find a townie being wagoned hard and say "Gee, I don't think X is scum, I think they're town." Then you get bonus points when X is inevitably lynched and flips town - you weren't on the wagon, in fact you were against it. You certainly fit the "wagoned hard" part of the definition, and if you flip town, then the whole scenario fits.

I could also see the attack on me/defense of you as a chainsaw defense, but I don't see those as frequently as I see the townbuddy, which is why it's worse for Grey if you flip town.

[Amrun]

That updated read post bumped smarg up to my #1 scumread, to me implying she knows I will flip town, and at the very least, backing away from her "distancing" theory, her only assertion in the game.

That is rich coming from you, though, Grey. Your more subdued aggression is making me doubt you, but my scumread on me smarg makes you town for now.

P-edit: so it's possible I'm town, now?

[GreyICE]

Amrun - scum 101 is to find a townie being wagoned hard and say "Gee, I don't think X is scum, I think they're town." Then you get bonus points when X is inevitably lynched and flips town - you weren't on the wagon, in fact you were against it. You certainly fit the "wagoned hard" part of the definition, and if you flip town, then the whole scenario fits.

I could also see the attack on me/defense of you as a chainsaw defense, but I don't see those as frequently as I see the townbuddy, which is why it's worse for Grey if you flip town.

Or maybe townplay 101 is to FIND SCUM AND LYNCH THEM AND NOT LYNCH TOWN.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO FIND SCUM?

[GreyICE]

Your reads list looks VERY similar to mine.

So what? #1 is my buddy Chronopie who I'm bussing?

[smargaret]

Amrun - I'm not backing away from the distancing theory; I think it's more than likely that you're scum. However, I recognize that there's a chance that I'm wrong, and that if I am wrong, Grey is likely scum.

Grey, what do you think I'm trying to do? Also, why couldn't you bus your buddy if they're being obvscum?

[GreyICE]

Amrun - I'm not backing away from the distancing theory; I think it's more than likely that you're scum. However, I recognize that there's a chance that I'm wrong, and that if I am wrong, Grey is likely scum.

Grey, what do you think I'm trying to do? Also, why couldn't you bus your buddy if they're being obvscum?

Ah so he's being obvscum.

Who was the first one to call him scum? Who put him as #1 in their reads list first?

I really don't know what's going on with your slot, and I'm not overly happy about it. I'm giving it a pass because it doesn't feel scum, just BAD. Frankly, if I didn't know there was no serial killer, I'd call this serial killer vibes.

[Tasky]

LYNCHCOUNT 1.7 (unchanged)

LYNCH (2/8): GhostWriter, imaginality
NO LYNCH (11): MrTrow, Chronopie, RedCoyote, smargaret, Amrun, Tragedy, RangeroftheNorth, Doombunny9, Kcdaspot, GreyICE, Exe

Deadline is 30.04.2011, 19:00 CET.

__

(Pseudo-)Votes

Doombunny9 (2): RangeroftheNorth, MrTrow
RangeroftheNorth (1): Exe
Amrun (1): RedCoyote
Kcdaspot (1): Amrun

Not Voting (8): Chronopie, imaginality, smargaret, Tragedy, GhostWriter, Doombunny9, GreyICE, Kcdaspot

[Tragedy]

In a thirteen player game, we likely have three mafiates. This game is mod-confirmed to be TvM; no 3rd Party. Therefore: We either have two scum, both with time machines. OR three scum, with less than three time machines between them.

Since when? I should have rephrased it into "How do you know about who has time machines?"
Then again, Chronopie's post feels like it's suggesting that scum has some time machines.

[Chronopie]

Basic logic suggests that Scum will have access to time-travel mechanics. Note that every assumption made follows on logically from the previous. 13 players -> 2-3 scum. Time Travel mechanic -> Scum likely have access. 2 scum in a 13 player game tends to be slightly underpowered, so access to advantages = balance. 3 Scum tends to be slightly on the powered side, so restricting access = balance. therefore it is logical to assume... etc.

[Kcdaspot]

chrono when did me and GreyICE clash?


point it out?

[RedCoyote]

Why didn't you respond to any of it rather than that part?

Yeah, it was kind of weird that he just dodged the entire thing.

---

OK, but I said that on page 2. I have since stated that I am mostly getting a town read from kcd.

Still, it makes you look like you're not fully disclosing everything.

---

P-edit: same to GW. Explain how you read kcda vs. Amrun as scum on scum.

Why are you so obsessed with this? Do you think the scumteam is banking on getting a twofer with you guys?

Personally, I'm starting to doubt my own scumread on him, making sacrificing myself useless. :/ Great.

This looks like you're slowly starting to backtrack.

---

I have nothing new to contribute. I am still confident that the scum lie in Amrun, Ranger, Chrono, and Kcd, with only one of Kcd and Amrun being scum.

This is kind of what I was thinking, but then Amrun & Grey started off on this, "you suspect us both so you think we're both scum together! Obviously that cannot be the truth!"

So now I want them both lynched even more.

---

The degree to which he's invested in Amrun and Kdcaspot not both being scum is a bit strange, however. Instinctively I feel wary of his motives. Probably ought to meta him to get a better read. Preview edit: Yeah. If GreyICE is scum then at least one of Amrun and Kcdaspot is scum too.

I feel exactly the same way. I think Doombunny and smargaret were hinting at this a bit, but I'm glad someone else is noticing this. Grey just completely attached himself to this idea that one of Amrun and Kcda is confirmed town out of the blue. At first I thought he was just trying to get more attention toward Ranger, which was reasonable, but then he started bantering with Amrun as though they were both untouchable. I just dont understand where he's coming from at all, and I don't like it.

if someone is expressing suspicion only of the easiest targets (least capable of defending themselves strongly), it's reasonable to at least keep an eye on that person to make sure they really are trying to actually scumhunt.

I mean, I get the logic behind the point, but I'm not going to sit here and let Grey say that Amrun and Kcda are too easy of targets so they're town. No, sir. That's not going to fly. If he wants to stick his neck out for these two, then he needs to man up and say it. This political mumbo jumbo about how Kcda is too easy of a lynch to be scum is just misdirection otherwise as far as I'm concerned.

Chronopie

You too? Really? I mean, what exactly is it that he has done? The man is probably just busy. This is nothing better than a lurker lynch, imo. Nothing he's said has been particularly scummy, just kind of out of touch.

Same question to smargaret.

"I'm scum. How do you know we have time machines?" or "I'm scum - but we only have one time machine." It reminds me of how SKs are more likely to comment on someone's comment about SKs.

I see your point, but, I mean, I don't know how hard I'd go after something like this. It's pretty logical to assume that scum and town alignments are going to have some sort of control over the time mechanic. Maybe the way she phrased it was a little weird, but I'm inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt in making the assumption.

---

1. Amrun
   
2. Kcdaspot
   
3. RangeroftheNorth
   
4. GreyICE
   
5. Chronopie
   
6. smargaret
   
7. Tragedy
   
8. Doombunny9
   
9. imaginality
   
10. MrTrow
    
11. Exe
    
12. GhostWriter

At this point I would vote to lynch, but I'm going to be absent for the Easter holidays. There's no point rushing the lynch phase unless everyone is around for it.

[Amrun]

RC, I have left several deliberate hints for you in particular, since you seem to be reading my posts carefully.

The fact that you have failed to address them at all is raising alarm bells in my mind. You've seen them. I can guarantee scum have seen them.

Also, I know exactly what saying my scumread on kcdaspot looks like. You can choose to think I'd backtrack as scum if you so choose.

[smargaret]

RC, the thing about Chronopie is that key phrase, "nothing he's said". Yes, to some extent it's a lurker lynch - but scum can lurk. Even when he does post, what he says proves that he isn't reading the thread, just skimming, and while he's posted a few times today, he hasn't taken a stance in those posts.

[GreyICE]

Basic logic suggests that Scum will have access to time-travel mechanics. Note that every assumption made follows on logically from the previous. 13 players -> 2-3 scum. Time Travel mechanic -> Scum likely have access. 2 scum in a 13 player game tends to be slightly underpowered, so access to advantages = balance. 3 Scum tends to be slightly on the powered side, so restricting access = balance. therefore it is logical to assume... etc.

Oh good, follow up useless commentary on events that didn't happen with useless commentary on mechanics!

HELLO FUCKING LYNCH

[imaginality]

if someone is expressing suspicion only of the easiest targets (least capable of defending themselves strongly), it's reasonable to at least keep an eye on that person to make sure they really are trying to actually scumhunt.

I mean, I get the logic behind the point, but

I'm not going to sit here and let Grey say that Amrun and Kcda are too easy of targets so they're town.

No, sir. That's not going to fly. If he wants to stick his neck out for these two, then he needs to man up and say it. This political mumbo jumbo about how Kcda is too easy of a lynch to be scum is just misdirection otherwise as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think he has said that.

I've said it before, I'll say it again Smarg. Whenever all your scumreads are newer/less experienced/less skilled players, ask yourself if it's really that easy.

The answer is usually no.

I would not be overly surprised if Amrun v. kcda was TvT. If you want my opinion, and I've been holding it back to see the responses, kcdaspot is fairly obvtown and I'll be treating suspicion without reason on him as fairly scummy from here on out. Amrun... is worse. Much worse. That being said, deep under Chrono and RotN.

I think you're linking Grey's first comment "I've said it before... usually no," to his second and taking him to be defending Amrun and Kcdaspot as being easy targets. I can see why you see it that way, but I saw it more as a comment about smargaret: "smargaret, all your top targets are easy (less skilled/experienced) ones. That's unlikely to be right. So you're not trying to scumhunt hard enough." i.e. not "Amrun and Kcdaspot shouldn't be lynched cos they're easy targets" but "all your targets are easy targets, so take a second look at the other players because there's probably at least one scum who's slipping by you." i.e. the 'easy targets' thing was a comment on smargaret's scumminess-or-laziness rather than Amrun+Kcdaspot's towniness.

@GreyICE: what are your current thoughts about smargaret? scum? lazy town? ..?

[GreyICE]

@GreyICE: what are your current thoughts about smargaret? scum? lazy town? ..?

I've been burned with giving 'lazy town' a pass too long. The kcda/amrun/mist team was lulz.

That being said, I just don't see a scum tone. I'd be highly disappointed if she was in the top 2 today, barring some spectacularly bad lines from her.

If she's still doing similar on day 3, I'd throw her into the noose in 5 seconds flat.

[Doombunny9]

I'm with Grey when he talks about smar. She managed to fit all the people that others find scummy into her list without providing any new information for any of them. This seems way too opportunistic to me.

Since I've comepletely forgotten about it until RC reminded me... Grey, feel like answering my question I asked in post whatever (Not going to go back and check since RC quoted it for you)

@Chrono- You said that your top four scumpicks are Ranger, Smar, Me,and EXE. Would you mind providing cases other than "I've got a bad feeling"

[imaginality]

On Chronopie:

iso#0 does make a good pro-town point about the setup. But it's only a comment on the setup. No random vote or other remark to help get things going. To that extent it's a fence-sitting opening post, and could very easily be scum waiting to see what others think before deciding what opinions to go with himself. It's not what this post does say, it's what it doesn't.

iso#1 is all the things GreyICE said about it in 226. It's scummy in the way it tries to pass itself off as a contribution but says next to nothing, aside from giving a suspects list with no associated reasons. It's just posting in the hope it'll keep others off his back and buy him more time to lurk in the background.

iso#2 is scummy in the way it fails spectacularly at explaining iso#1. It still doesn't acknowledge that there was no GreyICE vs Kcdaspot spat (as far as I can see, GreyICE's only comment on Kcdaspot before Chronopie's iso#1 was to call him town, and I don't think Kcdaspot had even mentioned GreyICE). Also, even if Kcdaspot vs Amrun had 'been resolved' as claimed (which is arguable), it doesn't mean there's no point commenting on it.

Especially

given that he didn't comment on anything else of value in iso1. Even saying (in iso#1) "Kcdaspot vs Amrun seems town vs town too" would have been useful.

And this:

I was getting a bad feeling about those four. to the point where I wouldn't mind seeing any of those four hang. It's one of those things that's annoying to put into words.

Yes, being pro-town can be annoying. It takes effort, having to make cases and think and discuss and work together to scumhunt. It's also necessary. /rant To me feels like lazy scum tossing forward the easiest explanation that comes to mind of 'oh yeah those reads were all just gut, don't ask me to explain them'.

This quote also blends past and present ('was getting' 'wouldn't mind') in a way which makes it clear he's

still

not given any more thought to the game and to his suspects since iso#1. It's still giving us nothing new, and it's still trying to pass off the nothing as though it's something.

Finally though less relevantly, iso#3 doesn't make sense since there are other ways to balance a game aside from time machines. I also fully expect scum to have at least one time machine, but I wouldn't assume 2 scum definitely have to have 2 machines, or that 3 scum have 2 rather than 1 (or 3, but 3 scum all with time machines really would need a high-powered town so I see 1 or 2 as more likely). This isn't scummy though, just not good reasoning. What's scummy about iso#3 is him taking the time to comment on that point, and not on anything else, like in iso#1. And in this case, it has an extra splash of seeming defensive (commenting only to respond to the points others are making about him, not looking any further than that).

Overall, it's not just that his posts have been lazy, it's that the flavour of laziness comes across to me more as lazy scum than lazy town. And for a D1 lynch, as things stand I'd rather lynch Chronopie than Amrun or Kcdaspot, because they seem both more likely to be useful if town and also easier for us to get clearer reads on if given more time. That's why he tops my list.

[GhostWriter]

iso#0 does make a good pro-town point about the setup. But it's only a comment on the setup. No random vote or other remark to help get things going. To that extent it's a fence-sitting opening post, and could very easily be scum waiting to see what others think before deciding what opinions to go with himself. It's not what this post does say, it's what it doesn't.

I have some problems with this part specifically.

1) The point is pro-town. Doesn't matter what it's on, it's pro-town, you said so yourself. It either is or it isn't.
2) Random vote? I think I specifically mentioned that we cannot have any RVS going on because of the setup.
3) How is it fence-sitting?
4) What doesn't the post say that others made around that time do?
5) Why is set-up discussion bad, specifically at that point in time?

I sorta-read the rest, but it was mostly regurgitated stuff.

[imaginality]

1. Yes. I'm not arguing the point is not pro-town. I'm saying that

solely

discussing the setup is not as pro-town as discussing the setup

and also

starting to scumhunt/create conditions for scumhunting.
2. Random accusation, then, if you prefer. (Though some people did still random-pseudo-vote.) Basically doing stuff to start discussion going.
3. Because it avoids the need to scumhunt by allowing him to wait until others have started forming their own opinions and he can decide which cases to hop on to, rather than having to make waves early and risk becoming the focus of discussion.
4. Examples of stuff people said either before or shortly after Chronopie's iso#1 (post 41), to show the sort of game-related comments Chronopie could have made, or commented on, but didn't:
Amrun 19: Well no real doctor would do that, but I still view it as rolefishing. Time for real vote
GhostWriter 29: None of that 'hehehe I never read rules' bullshit, because you all knew this would have special mechanics, and not knowing them is extremely anti-town at best.
Kcdaspot 32: VOTE: lynch ...those who do not do this within 3 of their own posts will hang.
GreyICE 33: If we do, my #1 will be KCDAspot, and my #2 down will be everyone voting lynch after this post.
RangeroftheNorth 35: I'm fairly suspicious of Amrun and KCD who apparently read the rules, but are still ok with going to the nomination phase this early in the game.
Exe 38: Stop trying so hard. You're not being pro-town, you're pointing out the obvious.
smargaret 47: I'm suspicious of the interaction between Amrun and kcd after the doctor claim - it was pretty clear that it was a joke, but I can see Amrun's suspicion as scum distancing.
5. It's not.

[Exe]

It's Easter weekend and my mother misses me. In other words, V/LA this weekend >.>