Some theory questions (Newbie 82 overflow)

[Seol]

Well, Newbie 82 was interesting. Not the game itself (another trivial redux after the day 1 cop claim), but a couple interesting questions came up:

1) As the town, is total disclosure of strategy a good idea, or is keeping your plans secret from the rest of the town advisable? I'm not talking about cop/doc claims here, but rather whether it's a good idea to spell out what you're doing and why, or whether town strategies (ie, ones whic require co-operation) can often benefit from not being detailed to the town.

2) Is there any reason not to have the cop claim day 1? More importantly, if the cop does claim day 1, is there any reason for the scum not to counterclaim? Following from that, should the scum attempt to pre-empt the cop claim day 1 with an early fake claim?

Furthermore, does the strength of the day-one-cop-reveals strategy effectively invalidate the game, reducing day one to attempting to set up the strongest possible claim situation and the rest of the game being basically a fait accompli?

Maybe I'm overstating the power of this strategy, but I've played two games in a row where we had an uncontested cop claim day one and that was pretty much game over for the Mafia - it felt more like playing a logic puzzle, and the personalities involved were almost irrelevant at the end.

[Locus Cosecant]

I've won as mafia against the day 1 cop claim. You just gotta be good at fingering the doc.

[halo freak]

mafia killing the docnight one (or lynching him day 1) can serious effect day 2 proceedings and can give the mafia i good chance at winning. But i think by the time the cop is out day 2 and the doc is still alive them the mafia are pretty screwed (one of the mafia have to be dead by this time or it would be game over and no daY 3) i lost like that once. I tried to kill the cop because if the doc was playing mind tricks with me them i might have a chance at a win but for the doc to not protect it would be stupit. I think we have had the conversation about this before and i think it was decided that the doc should sitll protect the cop incase the mafia do what i did.

If the cop comes out day 2 and the doc is still alive them the only way the mafia can win is by a strong couter claim and lycnhing the real cop.

Should we really be having this conversatiion because the purpose of a newbie is to tutor the new players not to make the game impossible for the mafia remember the new player couold be mafia aswell it wouldn't be very fun for a new player to lose their first game that way

[Seol]

Should we really be having this conversatiion because the purpose of a newbie is to tutor the new players not to make the game impossible for the mafia remember the new player couold be mafia aswell it wouldn't be very fun for a new player to lose their first game that way

Well, I'm aware that putting up a "road to victory" can render the thing trivial, but the thing is it's really not that difficult for people to see that for themselves. I'm really asking to check one of two things -
a) Is the "solution" as trivial as I've come to believe?
b) If it is, is it worth revising the newbie game setup?

[Talitha]

I'm concerned that newbies games have become such a science with strategy and statistics, that they are no longer a good introduction to the game of mafia and no longer bear much resemblance to the rest of the games on this site.

That's not to say that they're not good games, some of them are very interesting. I'd just like newbies not to be stepping into a game setup where certain strategies have already been established by many many repetitions of the setup.

If I'd started with newbie games as they are now, I would've felt more out of my depth than I did starting in a mini, I think.

[MeMe]

Talitha, that was well-stated and I completely agree.

I think that if the set-up were chosen randomly from one of these:

a) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 1 doc, 3 townies (as most are currently)
b) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 4 townies
c) 2 mafia, 1 doc, 4 townies
d) 2 mafia, 5 townies

The game might be less easily broken. Claiming "cop" without a counterclaim won't mean that much because it's possible that there's NOT even a cop in the game.

The roles would still be basic, and the set-up wouldn't be anything fancy -- but there'd still be that "unknown" element that makes mini games work well.

Comments?

[Aelyn]

Agreed, MeMe. My first game here was a standard seven-person game, except only one of the power roles was present. That led to a lot more tension, mainly because the cop couldn't afford to come out until the endgame. Unfortunately, I screwed up and lost the game for my side.

[mathcam]

I think the 4-choices plan is excellent.

Cam

[Narninian]

The funny thing is - I was lynched in my first 2 newbie games(as a townie, both games lost), for agreeing with/suggesting a cop claim on the first day. Its 'ideal' play but I was lynched for it.

[halo freak]

MeMe's idea would solve the problem. How about the next few newbies use that to see how it works, maybe?

[Seol]

Talitha, that was well-stated and I completely agree.

I think that if the set-up were chosen randomly from one of these:

a) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 1 doc, 3 townies (as most are currently)
b) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 4 townies
c) 2 mafia, 1 doc, 4 townies
d) 2 mafia, 5 townies

The game might be less easily broken. Claiming "cop" without a counterclaim won't mean that much because it's possible that there's NOT even a cop in the game.

The roles would still be basic, and the set-up wouldn't be anything fancy -- but there'd still be that "unknown" element that makes mini games work well.

Comments?

Perfect. It keeps everything that's good about the newbie game whilst eliminating the main problem - which is, unlike the larger games played here, the fact that the setup is known precisely before we start allows the whole rediction to established "best strategy". Putting that bit of uncertainty introduces one of the concepts that makes Mafia interesting - doubt.

[Norinel]

Can't say this hasn't been brought up before; general consensus then was yes, it is brokenish with D1 cop claim, but in the interests of sportsmanship and making it a reasonable learning experience, experienced players weren't advocating it.

As always, I'll usually be fine with setup tweaking within reason as long as it's made completely clear before/during the game. However, I'm quite wary of calling anything "perfect" or making any official change without some empirical testing.

[Pie_is_good]

What most helped me in my Newbie games is exposure to the cop/doc mechanics. If my experience game had nothing but mafia and townies, I don't think I would really get a feel for what this site is like.

I think it would be better if we used the current setup as the minimum for the game. Maybe we could use an insane cop and an innocent godfather as a variable (and a few more townies to even things out)?

All in all, though, I do agree with MeMe that things should be changed by making all games different.

[halo freak]

that would be turning it into a mini A game with upto 12 players.

But i agree that the 2 mafia and 5 townies would not be should a good idea. The others which were suggested would be better, it keeps the town and the mafia guess and means that people have to go more on scummy actions than cop investigations

[Seol]

What most helped me in my Newbie games is exposure to the cop/doc mechanics. If my experience game had nothing but mafia and townies, I don't think I would really get a feel for what this site is like.

If we have a situation where the roles are cop, doc, mafia and townie, then the mechanics of all of them will be explained as and when it's appropriate and/or necessary...

even if they aren't actually in the game

, having a non-open setup but with previously revealed

possible

roles and setups. But I'd agree that having no power roles would be a touch dry...

[Narninian]

The thing is - most Veterans try to avoid/avert having the cop reveal to trivialize the game. The point is to have newbies understand how the game works - which I think is working, not to have a "perfectly balanced" setup.

[Mr. Flay]

I think I've played in a newbie game with most of the people in this thread, and I agree that the Day One cop claim is pretty much a breaking strategy. Newbie...73, was it? we worked out most of the possibilities and it reduced the mafia chances to something like 1/24 even with perfect play, if we didn't kill the doc Night One. I'm pretty sure I was in the game Aelyn is referring to (1 doc OR 1 cop), and that was the most exciting Newbie Game I've been in since 25 (my first). Town still had a good chance of winning, but the mafia got to do *something* besides react.

I think the problem is (and this comes from having been scum in 3 of my 4 newbie games), that the 2-1-1-3 setup is fine for teaching townies, but lousy at training mafia. If the cop comes out and isn't counterclaimed (and even most newbies are aware of the scenario now) Day One, then the mafia HAVE to kill the doc that night. If they counterclaim the cop, then they HAVE to get him lynched or you're in an even worse situation than above. Day Two, you're just reacting to what the Mod tells you the results were, and the other players' votes... it's reductionist.

I like MeMe's four possibilities, and think the role PMs should be published as possible

even if they're not used that game

. It gets the newbies familiar with the concepts, as well as the mechanics. While we're at it, can I advocate for standardizing the "mafia can speak during confirmation/Night Zero"? Not being able to plan even a semblance of a strategy is harsh....

[Maximus]

Haha, is this the one where I said "if i were cop, which i'm not" and that eventually got me lynched? :p Well it was something new I had to try.

[Seol]

I think I've played in a newbie game with most of the people in this thread, and I agree that the Day One cop claim is pretty much a breaking strategy. Newbie...73, was it? we worked out most of the possibilities and it reduced the mafia chances to something like 1/24 even with perfect play, if we didn't kill the doc Night One.

Something remote like that, yea.

'73 was the first game where that happened. In '82 EXACTLY the same thing happened again. I've joined another newbie game and am hoping I'll end up scum just to prevent it happening a third time.

Think I might have a jaundiced view of the format.

I think the problem is (and this comes from having been scum in 3 of my 4 newbie games), that the 2-1-1-3 setup is fine for teaching townies, but lousy at training mafia.

Which is half the point. The other point is the game should also remain both enjoyable and non-trivial, to keep IC players still interested in playing for the sake of playing (as opposed to "community service"), and to demonstrate the same set of skills as the larger games.

I like MeMe's four possibilities, and think the role PMs should be published as possible

even if they're not used that game

. It gets the newbies familiar with the concepts, as well as the mechanics.

Exactly - the argument for having both cop and doc in the game is to familiarise the newbies with the basic roles. Having them possibly, but not necessarily, in the game means there will still be discussion about how they'd function in a game context, but also introduce another crucial element of Mafia - uncertainty about the setup. While doubt remains, the game is massively more interesting and entertaining.

While we're at it, can I advocate for standardizing the "mafia can speak during confirmation/Night Zero"? Not being able to plan even a semblance of a strategy is harsh....

Furthermore, this aspect is also justified on the account of

that's what happens in larger games

. I totally agree we don't want to be making the newbie games excessively complicated, but we do want them to reflect "proper" games in as many ways as possible. Don't we?

Haha, is this the one where I said "if i were cop, which i'm not" and that eventually got me lynched? :p Well it was something new I had to try.

Was that deliberate, then? Damn, you had me confused. But that does raise another thought I had - in the situation where you confirm a cop day 1, I'm halfway convinced it's better to lynch a townie than scum. Seriously. But I haven't done the math yet.

[Maximus]

Yea it was something I had to try to see what kind of discussion it would spark. And most likely, i'm gonna use that whenever i'm mafia next in hopes that the real cop either gets lynched or my buddies pick him out and finish him at night.

[Seol]

Yea it was something I had to try to see what kind of discussion it would spark. And most likely, i'm gonna use that whenever i'm mafia next in hopes that the real cop either gets lynched or my buddies pick him out and finish him at night.

*adds this to Mafia tells file, under "Maximus"*

[Maximus]

Ah but you never know when and if I will struck.

[Seol]

Ah but you never know when and if I will struck.

Are you saying that you'd try that again as a townie?

[Maximus]

Probably not as a townie but as long as I have some type of powers, I might try it.

I've already tried it as townie so it'd be pointless to repeat it.

[Seol]

Still a tell then, but a risky one to use.

Meh, I'll probably have forgotten this by then anyway.