Combat Testing Revisited

Older threads and ideas relating to the Amstaad RPG.
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Combat Testing Revisited

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:16 am

Post by Yaw »

Just setting up the thread right now, I'll put the meat in responses.

After getting a few things ironed out with Dourgrim while he was back, I want to retest combat. This will NOT require any help from other mods, though feedback on each test would be greatly appreciated. Here's what I'm planning:

1 -- A rerun of the Vor vs. Oduro match. No tricks. This will test whether the changes to the Slith were sufficient to make them more balanced, as well as testing out the new armour and fatigue rules.

2 -- A progressive levelling up of Oduro vs. Vor staying the same. I still expect Vor to win test 1 fairly easily. Vor
should
win test 1 easily. The real question is at what point experience balances out natural ability in this format. This test should give a definitive numerical answer to that question, which will tell us if the character creation and combat rules are balanced, or if they require some more finessing.

I realize that the new rules aren't up yet. I will work at that and post a note when they've been added.

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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:16 am

Post by Yaw »

New rules up. Last post in Combat Mechanics thread.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:22 pm

Post by Yaw »

And fixed up some mathematical errors to combat mechanics, so fatigue actually makes some sort of sense now. :roll:

The combatants:

Oduro bel’Anath
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Race: Elf

Description: Young looking, 5’9” with fine features. Fair-skinned, green eyes, with shoulder-length light brown hair worn in thin braids.

ATTRIBUTES (35):

EMP : 5
CHR: 6
ACU: 5
REA: 4
STR: 3
CRD: 6
POW: 4
PUR: 4

HIT POINTS: 27

SKILLS:
Negotiation (CHR): 2
Intuition (EMP): 2
Observation(ACU): 2
Language (Elvish) (REA): 8
Language (Trade) (REA): 4
Swords (CRD): 2
Evasion (CRD): 2
Focus (PUR): 2
Willpower (PUR): 1

And changing to fit under the new Slith rules:

Vor McDoogel
Race: Slith

Description: With about 6'7 of muscles, Vor is a fierce fighter. He specialize both in polearms and swords. He uses 2 spears as main weapon, but also carries a two-handed sword with him. Vor is usually covered from head to toe with a full platemail. Although it slows him down, it gives him very good protection. Through Vor's helmet notches you can see his yellowy red eyes, staring at you, trying to see where are the week spots of your armor.

ATTRIBUTES (35):

EMP : 1 (2)
CHR: 1 (3)
ACU: 3
REA: 3
STR: 9 (7)
CRD: 7
POW: 4
PUR: 7 (6)

HIT POINTS: 54

SKILLS (15):
Axes; Polearms (STR): 4
Evasion (CRD): 4
Observation(ACU): 4
Swords(STR): 3

Inventory:
2 Spears
Two-handed sword
A banana


I'll calculate the bonuses and penalties due to armour, shields, etc. right before running the first combat test.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:24 am

Post by Yaw »

And on we go. I'm doing the die rolls in a separate window, just using the dice tags and previewing, then copying the numbers in here.

Oduro has leather armour (-1 damage), a buckler (+1 defense), and a sword (+1 fatigue).
Vor has full plate mail (-5 damage, -2 CRD, +2 fatigue), no shield, and two spears (-1 each attack, +1 fatigue).

Initiative Check:

Oduro: 5+2+5 = 12
Vor: 3+4+4 = 11

Oduro goes first.

Round 1:

Oduro attack:
Oduro: 2+6+9 = 17
Fatigue: 2+4+3+7 = 16
Vor: 4+7-2+8 = 17

Passes fatigue, but blocked.

Vor attack 1:
Vor: 9+4-1+10 = 22
Fatigue: 0+7+2+2+1+9 = 21
Oduro: 2+6+10 = 18

Both pass, hit. Damage = 1.5*9 = 13.5, rounding up to 14.

Vor attack 2:
Vor: 9+4-1+3 = 15
Fatigue: 0+7+2+2+1+3 = 15
Oduro: 2+6+1 = 9

Fatigue failure, miss.

Oduro's hit points are now 27-14 = 13.

Round 2:

Oduro attack:
Oduro: 2+6+7 = 15
Fatigue: 2+4+3+10 = 19
Vor: 4+7-2+1 = 10

Fatigue failure, miss.

Vor attack 1:
Vor: 9+4-1+2 = 14
Fatigue: 0+7+2+2+1+2+3 = 17
Oduro: 2+6+6 = 14

Failure on both counts, miss.

Vor attack 2:
Vor: 9+4-1+2 = 14
Fatigue: 0+7+2+2+1+2+8 = 22
Oduro: 2+6+5 = 13

Failure on both counts, miss.

Round 3:

Oduro attack:
Oduro: 2+6+8 = 16
Fatigue: 2+4+3+2+6 = 17
Vor: 4+7-2+3 = 12

Fatigue failure, miss.

Vor attack 1:
Vor: 9+4-1+7 = 19
Fatigue: 0+7+2+2+1+2+2+2+4 = 22
Oduro: 2+6+3 = 11

Fatigue failure, miss.

Vor attack 2:
Vor: 9+4-1+2 = 19
Fatigue: 0+7+2+2+1+2+2+2+7 = 25
Oduro: 2+6+3 = 11

Fatigue failure, miss.

And we descend to farce.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:33 am

Post by Yaw »

So what went wrong?

The fatigue calculation still isn't intuitive. Two problems here.

First, the comparison is ass-backwards. The attack is the physical exertion expended, while the fatigue value is how well the character can deal with the exertion. The check should therefore be:

Fatigue > Attack

To hit. That is, the ability to deal with the exertion is sufficient. This means that the penalties on the fatigue value should be
subtracted
instead of added, to make the fatigue value lower over time. So as the character becomes more fatigued, the fatigue value drops, and it becomes harder for it to beat the attack value.

The second problem is more severe. We've just raised the Focus skill (and PUR by relation) to paramount importance. In a way, this penalizes people with high STR and CRD, because those high values can make it harder to hit! The Fatigue value should therefore start with an additional initial value. This will artificially boost it, making attacks easier in the early going. What the value should be, though...?

There's also a third problem, which is that having the fatigue value compared to the attack at all has a tendency to penalize very good attacks. That is, the higher the attack roll (better the attack), the harder it becomes to pass the fatigue check. It's probably necessary to figure out a solution to this as well.

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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:50 am

Post by Yaw »

Ok, I missed some numbers while running the test, but I don't think that influences the results too much.

Looking back at the numbers to set an initial value. I think if it is sufficiently high, it won't penalize attacks too much. (That is, if the fatigue constant is high enough, then only high rolls for attack
combined with
low rolls for fatigue should trigger a miss initially. As long as the probability of that first failure is relatively low, the fight should be fair.)

Looking at Oduro with the proper definition of fatigue:

Attack = 2 (Swords) + 6 (CRD) + d10 = 8 + d10
Fatigue = 2 (Focus) + 4 (PUR) - 2 (attacking) - 1 (medium weapon) + d10 + A = A + 3 + d10

We want Fatigue > Attack, so:

A + 3 + d10 > 8 + d10
A + d10 > 5 + d10

Setting failure for rolls where the LHS d10 comes up small (say 1 or 2) while the RHS d10 comes up large (say 9 or 10) gives us the smallest reasonable value for A of:

A + 2 = 5 + 9
A = 12

Now to check one of Vor's attacks:

Attack = 4 (spears) + 9 (STR) - 1 (double weapon) + d10 = 12 + d10
Fatigue = 0 (Focus) + 7 (PUR) - 2 (attacking) - 1 (medium weapon) - 2 (plate mail) +d10 + A = A + 2 + d10

A + 2 + d10 > 12 + d10

So, substituting in rolls for the d10s:

A + 2 + 2 = 12 + 9
A = 17

It is probably reasonable to have A more towards the lower side, though -- Vor
should
be taking penalties for stocking up on unwieldy stuff. That said, I'm not sure a constant number is necessarily going to work, because it has to account for pretty wide disparities in character ability. It also has to account for the ability to acquire skills and attributes, which would change the equation. Perhaps there is a way to make this number into another variable.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:36 am

Post by Yaw »

Ok, new idea to test.

Forget fatigue above. Each character is going to have an Energy Budget, a single number equal to the sum of all his/her attributes. (So players can invest experience in raising their attributes, which will increase their overall endurance and help stave off fatigue.) As actions are performed, points are taken away from this Budget (or added to the Budget, if you eat, sleep, meditate, etc. to recuperate energy).

To perform an action, two d10s are rolled against the Energy Budget. If the dice roll is higher than the Budget, it's a failure due to fatigue. Note that this gives everyone a decent number of "free" actions -- two d10s can hit a maximum of 20, while the initial value for the sum of attributes before racial modifiers is 35.

In practical terms, this means the fighters here will have a certain number of swings where fatigue won't even be an issue. In most runs, Vor should be strong enough to finish off Oduro before fatigue even begins to hinder him -- which is as it should be. A more experienced Oduro, however, would in theory be able to take advantage of the fact that Vor's energy budget is going to dip into die roll territory faster, drawing the battle out long enough to give him a chance. Sort of like Ali pulling the "rope-a-dope" trick on Foreman. In theory, this also manages to express the fact that a high level Oduro
can
defeat Vor -- but certainly not by overpowering him with physical power.

Running this idea:

Oduro has leather armour (-1 damage), a buckler (+1 defense), and a sword (+1 fatigue).
Vor has full plate mail (-5 damage, -2 CRD, +2 fatigue), no shield, and two spears (-1 each attack, +1 fatigue).

Initiative Check:

Oduro: 5+2+7 = 14
Vor: 3+4+2 = 9

Oduro goes first.

Round 1:

Oduro attack:
Oduro: 2+6+8 = 16
Energy Budget: 37-2-1 = 34, roll irrelevant
Vor: 4+7-2+4 = 13

Oduro hits. (And the CRD change makes this fight a lot more reasonable, as Vor's no longer unhittable!) Damage = 1.5*3 - 5 = -0.5 --> 0. Hm.

Vor attack 1:
Vor: 9+4-1+1 = 13
Energy Budget: 35-2-2-1 = 30, roll irrelevant
Oduro: 2+6+1+9 = 18

Blocked.

Vor attack 2:
Vor: 9+4-1+7 = 19
Energy Budget: 30-2 = 28, roll irrelevant
Oduro: 2+6+1+4 = 13

Hit. Damage = 1.5*9 - 1 = 12.5 --> 13. Oduro's HP = 27-13 = 14.

Round 2:

Oduro attack:
Oduro: 2+6+1 = 9
Energy Budget: 34-2 = 32, roll irrelevant
Vor: 4+7-2+2 = 11

Oduro blocked.

Vor attack 1:
Vor: 9+4-1+4 = 16
Energy Budget: 28-2 = 26, roll irrelevant
Oduro: 2+6+1+1 = 10

Vor hits. Damage = 13. Oduro's HP = 14-13 = 1

Vor attack 2:
Vor: 9+4-1+6 = 18
Energy Budget: 26-2 = 24, roll irrelevant
Oduro: 2+6+1+9 = 18

Blocked. But by now we're looking at one virtually dead elf.

Round 3:

Oduro attack:
Oduro: 2+6+4 = 12
Energy Budget: 32-2 = 30, roll irrelevant
Vor: 4+7-2+6 = 15

Blocked.

Vor attack 1:
Vor: 9+4-1+6 = 18
Energy Budget: 24-2 = 22, roll irrelevant
Oduro: 2+6+1+2 = 11

Hit. Death.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:00 am

Post by Yaw »

Ok, I want some input on this one point: Armour balancing.

Basically, the last combat test made me realize that this has never been done -- we just came up with some arbitrary numbers to represent armour, without actually cross-referencing them with other things to see if the numbers made sense. Fortunately, this should be pretty simple to balance, because it is only dependent on one variable.

We have five armour types right now. (It's possible to add more, and if you think there's a kind of armour that we should have, please say so.) These are:

Leather armour
Studded armour
Chain mail
Breastplate
Plate mail

Now, when a player hits, the amount of damage done is dependent on his/her strength (STR, normal humans have a range of 1-7 with 4 average), minus the protection the armour affords. So, say you have a person attacking another, and hitting, with a regular-sized typical sword. How strong, on the scale of 1-7, do you think that person would have to be to do damage through each of these kinds of armour?

I know that it will be different depending on the kind of weapon, but just answer for the question given, and I'll test the math out for other scenarios.
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