Open 329: Mayo Clinic D3: Town WINS!

Quilford · Post Post #1150 (ISO) » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:22 pm

Only if they claim.

Cogito Ergo Sum · Post Post #1151 (ISO) » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:32 pm

Hmm. 2 vigs claiming => town win may be problematic regardless (town could luck into a mass vig claim; experienced townie could push a mass vig claim through before scum know what the right move is).

How about we add a Docblocker (maybe call it a Placeboizer, dunno) to the mafia? Ruins town plans but is otherwise not significantly powerful?

izakthegoomba · Post Post #1152 (ISO) » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:17 pm

Docblocker... That could work.

GreyICE · Post Post #1153 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:26 am

In post 1125, Hoopla wrote:
In post 1124, glowball wrote:I don't know that it is COMPLETELY broken.
We kind of got best case scenarios, like Neil outright claiming SK and NO scum counter claims. I mean we have to credit play style to some of what happened. That being said it is very slanted. I guess someone who thinks it is unfair should summarize.

A setup doesn't need to be COMPLETELY broken to be broken. If there is a strategy that
should
be used to increase the town's chances, rather than playing the game normally, the setup (in most cases) shouldn't be played.

Mass claim, followed by essentially using vigs to cop for goons by shooting random players in a circle protect.

Massively enhanced by dead SK, obv. I mean this was best case scenario (any game with 0 town lynches is best case scenario) but still an issue.

I think the fix is what I said in dead thread - make all 3 scum doctors, but make it so that if scum is protected by scum doctor and town doctor they lose all protections (even if multiple town doctors on them).

GreyICE · Post Post #1154 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:26 am

I dislike roleblocker as a solution because it kinda makes it 'lynch the roleblocker day 1 and suddenly you're playing broken game.'

Quilford · Post Post #1155 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:40 am

In post 1153, GreyICE wrote:make all 3 scum doctors, but make it so that if scum is protected by scum doctor and town doctor they lose all protections (even if multiple town doctors on them).

I endorse this product and/or service.

How was the scum doc killed N2?

Quilford · Post Post #1156 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:43 am

In post 1114, ToastyToast wrote:
Quilford technically disappeared for about two days of the events in the hospital. Its rumored he's attempting to start the hospital up again--well, if he ever gets around to waking up.

So apparently I star in Inception?

whispersilk · Post Post #1157 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:49 am

The scum doc was targeted by a vig, and of course he only had a goon "protecting" him.

Quilford · Post Post #1158 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:52 am

Man, that is a fail.

whispersilk · Post Post #1159 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:55 am

How about introducing sanity issues with regards to some of the docs? Or are those frowned upon?

I do believe this setup is breakable. Even if my plan had not gone off so well, it would still have resulted in a town win. What constitutes a broken setup anyway? Is it one where one faction can't win, or where one faction has a much greater chance of winning, or where the odds are just on one factions side?

whispersilk · Post Post #1160 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:58 am

I would really like to play this again, with the same people, but no mass claim, and maybe a slight alteration to the setup.

izakthegoomba · Post Post #1161 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:24 am

A broken game is one which can be broken with a certain strategy ("breaking strategy").

A breaking strategy is one which makes one faction considerably more likely to win than the other.

izakthegoomba · Post Post #1162 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:26 am

Oh, and I think Quilfords idea would work too.

But if two regular docs protect someone, one mafia doc protects them, and hey are NK'd, do they survive? Does the mafia doc protection only cancel one town protection?

Cogito Ergo Sum · Post Post #1163 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:53 am

In post 1153, GreyICE wrote:I think the fix is what I said in dead thread - make all 3 scum doctors, but make it so that if scum is protected by scum doctor and town doctor they lose all protections (even if multiple town doctors on them).

This strikes me as a very awkward solution - guessing whether a certain scum is going to be protected is pretty much a crapshoot.

I think the breaking strategy is marginal enough (especially with a scum vig claim) that even a D1 docblockerlynch wouldn't set up the town to win.

Thomith · Post Post #1164 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:02 am

toasy wrote:Thomith went back to being the terrible doctor he was, making loads of money. He proposed to glowball a month after the events, and got rejected. Loves mudkips.

ummm... what?

Quaroath · Post Post #1165 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:08 am

I vig Maruchan, for those asking how the scum doc got revealed. (hey i vigged two scum, whooo vigging!)

Thomith · Post Post #1166 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:22 am

The plan doesnt catch the scum doctor i think it was originally made to catch the goons then lynch the doctor through scumhunting, we just got lucky with the scum-scum placement day 2.

whispersilk · Post Post #1167 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:46 am

^that is true. I made the plan to catch ONLY the goons; the scum doc would be killed along with almost everyone else once they were gone. I imagined both vigs being the only ones left, with maybe one town doc. As it happened, the plan only lasted two night because the vigs shot well.

Toasty asked me why I didn't make sure I was protected on night 1, and I told him that I thought there was more chance of everyone trusting me and the plan if I put myself in the line of fire, and I figured that if I was killed night 1, that the rest of you would be able to make the small changes to the doc train and such without me. As it turns out, I turned in my grave when I saw Quill change the plan to put himself on vig duty (at the time that would have been the only was for scum to hide), and I was really glad when glowball was like "wtf, you have no rights, dude!!". Also, I was almost certain glowball was town, and being as I was town, it meant that ALL scum were on the doc train, which greatly increased our chances of finding a goon on night 1.

I left myself semi protected in the alternate plan, because if the SK was still out there, I figured that my plan might need serious adjustment depending on what happened night 1, and I wanted to be around to ensure the best plan went forward.

I didn't see Maruscum at all.

Quaroath · Post Post #1168 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:13 am

I was pretty sure piggy and izak were, and I'm really glad the random shots worked out to test their targets. Both shots were random.org'd Both also ended up on the person I wanted to shoot. Fate? Mayhaps!

Thomith · Post Post #1169 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:48 am

i only called out maru and only thought it was izak due to others, boy were my reads off.

ToastyToast · Post Post #1170 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:55 am

In post 1139, Quilford wrote:Uh, Toasty?
Night actions, please.

Sorry, figured that since they were coordinated, it was obvious

N1:
glowball-->Protect Quaroath
Quilford-->Protect izakthegoomba
GreyICE-->Protect Quilford (Success)
PiggyGal15-->No Action
izakthegoomba-->Kill whispersilk (Success)
BBmolla-->Shoot Quilford (Failed)
VitaminR-->Protect Maruchan
Quaroath-->Shoot VitaminR (Success)
whispersilk-->Protect BBmolla
Thomith-->Protect GreyICE

N2:
glowball-->Protect Quaroath
Quilford-->Protect Thomith
GreyICE-->Protect BBmolla
izakthegoomba-->No Action
BBmolla-->Shoot Quilford (Failed)
Thomith-->Protect Quilford (Success)
Maruchan-->Protect izakthegoomba, Kill GreyICE (Success)
Quaroath-->Kill Maruchan (Success

)

ToastyToast · Post Post #1171 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:58 am

CES wrote:How about we add a Docblocker (maybe call it a Placeboizer, dunno) to the mafia? Ruins town plans but is otherwise not significantly powerful?

Isn't that just a Jailkeeper?

Thomith · Post Post #1172 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:59 am

im missing from night 1

yeah, fixed it.

Cogito Ergo Sum · Post Post #1173 (ISO) » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:03 am

In post 1171, ToastyToast wrote:
CES wrote:How about we add a Docblocker (maybe call it a Placeboizer, dunno) to the mafia? Ruins town plans but is otherwise not significantly powerful?

Isn't that just a Jailkeeper?

I'm thinking of a Docblocker as a Blocker of Docs, not Doc + Blocker.

GreyICE · Post Post #1174 (ISO) » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:31 pm

In post 1159, whispersilk wrote:How about introducing sanity issues with regards to some of the docs? Or are those frowned upon?

I do believe this setup is breakable. Even if my plan had not gone off so well, it would still have resulted in a town win. What constitutes a broken setup anyway? Is it one where one faction can't win, or where one faction has a much greater chance of winning, or where the odds are just on one factions side?

One where there is only one acceptable way to play the game.

Example: Pie E7 (Cop, doctor, 3VT, 2 goons). Cop claims day 1. Mafia counterclaims him. Town lynches whichever they don't believe.

If they lynch scum, doctor protects cop. Day 2, doctor claims, and unless cop investigated doctor, 3 confirmed town, 2 unconfirmed town. Even if he investigated doctor, you've got 3 unconfirmed town, a cop who can't die with confirmed sanity, and two lynches.

If they lynch town, D2 you lynch counterclaiming goon. D3 doctor claims (unless he's dead). It'll be 4:1 at that point, so you have 2 days to get scum (probable win if doctor alive, still very possible with doctor dead)

If mafia don't counterclaim, then mafia shoot for doctors, and cop confirms town.