The Scummies, 2011... Live! (ish)

[Faraday]

Vi, you're confusing awards.

Best Setup had RPG (which won) and MetaMafia, + DDDP's Magician Mafia and another I forget.

Best Mechanic/Mutation had Team Mafia, Court of The Gods, Cyclic, Scavenger Mechanic, Marketplace Mafia and maybe some others I forget. Oh, Dating Game, Double Dip and things like that.

[Vi]

So there are actually fewer contenders per award class...
Getting away from a focus on one winner may still not be a bad thing, but it's not as big an issue as I thought.

[zoraster]

Also, as it turns out, it was the half-way scummy judges who made the decision that concerns my games. So it wasn't Team Mafia vs. Marketplace Mafia. It was Team Mafia vs. Cyclic Mafia (and my In the Court of the Gods for that matter) and then Cyclic Mafia vs. Marketplace Mafia because the halfway judges picked Cyclic.

The end of year Judges probably got it right then. It was the mid-way judges who made a mistake.

--
And to answer your question, Vi. I don't think that's a good way to go unless we really want to change the scummies into something very, very different.

[Kublai Khan]

How was Stars Aligned III received by the voters? (under best town category)

It was an extremely close decision and some extra judges had to come in and break up some ties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It was an extremely close decision and some extra judges had to come in and break up some ties.

Along those lines .. how did Back to the Future Mafia Town fare then?

[IceGuy]

The end of year Judges probably got it right then. It was the mid-way judges who made a mistake.

Or they just disagree with you that your idea was the best idea.

[Kublai Khan]

It was an extremely close decision and some extra judges had to come in and break up some ties.

Along those lines .. how did Back to the Future Mafia Town fare then?

Aw.. The super-secret judging forum is gone for me to go back and check, but I think I was pushing for BTTF town. It was a pretty close battle.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Aw.. The super-secret judging forum is gone for me to go back and check, but I think I was pushing for BTTF town. It was a pretty close battle.

Ok, good to know. I was very proud how the Town there played from 'best' to 'worst' player and was sad that it didn't look like it got any significant consideration.

Thanks Kublai.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, as it turns out, it was the half-way scummy judges who made the decision that concerns my games. So it wasn't Team Mafia vs. Marketplace Mafia. It was Team Mafia vs. Cyclic Mafia (and my In the Court of the Gods for that matter) and then Cyclic Mafia vs. Marketplace Mafia because the halfway judges picked Cyclic.

The end of year Judges probably got it right then.

It was the mid-way judges who made a mistake.

--
And to answer your question, Vi. I don't think that's a good way to go unless we really want to change the scummies into something very, very different.

I don't feel we made a mistake, really.

Considering that it was for the best Mechanic or Mutation, we had to consider a few things:

Firstly, how much of an effect of the game did the mechanic have? In the case of Court of the Gods, the effect was minimal. The shared QTs didn't add TOO TOO much, and the idea of unlynchable treestumps, including one being scum, has been done before (I'll get to this).

The same could be said for Team Mafia. Really, it was essentially a hydra game, where each player was a 4 person hydra, and all players were involved in 4 games. Was it a fun idea? Yes. Can it be considered a mutation to the game of mafia? No.

Cyclic Mafia also had some of these issues, but they weren't as apparent. The mutation that Cyclic mafia presented was a definite change to how mafia is played. With roles not only changing every night, but changing hands every night.

Next, you have to consider the originality of the mechanic. There's a reason for it to be called a mutation, we need something we've never seen before. Frankly, [Redacted Judge] put it best for me. Team Mafia and In the Court both suffered from their only mechanical change boiling down to the following:

-QTs
-Treestumps
-Hydras

It was impossible for us to award a Mechanic/Mutation award to either of these games when none of these concepts were at all "new". Yes, they were taken with a slightly different spin/train of thought. But in the end, they were simply the same mutations you could find in multiple Large and Mini themes.

Cyclic's role shuffle system DID NOT have this problem. That's why Cyclic passed over either of your games, and I would make that decision 100 times out of 100 again.

Sorry.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

(As a note, congratulations to all winners, and especially to Andrius for winning Most Improved).

[Lost Butterfly]

Aw.. The super-secret judging forum is gone for me to go back and check, but I think I was pushing for BTTF town. It was a pretty close battle.

Ok, good to know. I was very proud how the Town there played from 'best' to 'worst' player and was sad that it didn't look like it got any significant consideration.

Thanks Kublai.

It won the half it was nommed for but ultimately lost out, although really both games were 'perfect victories' and it was a difficult decision. It was certainly an impressive town performance, though.

[zoraster]

So I sent my reply via PM to LLD as I don't want this to become some sort of public back and forth, and I have nothing against LLD in particular. But I am curious as I've heard the hydra thing a few times, and I think that's pretty far off the mark. But I may not be in the best place to analyze that as its creator, and this view is held pretty tightly by the judges I've spoken to. So I admit I may be wrong in the way I look at it.

So to those who did play last time, did you feel that Team Mafia was just like playing four hydras in four games or did you feel that you were playing your own game with your team there to help augment your own play through strategy, reads, etc. and that your teammates were playing their own games where you could help augment their play through strategy, reads, etc.?

If the former, do you think that's something that should or can be addressed?

[CrashTextDummie]

I sure hope not that Team Mafia is "essentially a hydra game". I'd deeply regret signing up for it.

Team Mafia avoids the chief drawback of hydras, which is having to play with two players with different playstyles in the same slot. The way I see it, Team Mafia allows for "outside game discussion", as in the ability to bounce around ideas and reads with people who are not part of the game. This mechanic may not be new, but is uniquely implemented here as far as I'm aware. And then there's the aspect of team scoring, which adds a new layer of strategy to the game.

All things considered, I disagree with LLD's assessment.

[zoraster]

I agree with you, obviously. But to be fair, the scoring system in the first version was much simpler. Each game pretty much had four options: major mafia win, minor mafia win, minor town win, major town win. As a result, there was a lot of tying. We did that on purpose, but in the end we decided to go a different direction with it this year to avoid ties where the judges have to make a determination.

[Lost Butterfly]

Yeah, it was definitely more the latter and not a 'big hydra' argument. (Fwiw, I thought cyclic 1 being inherently broken meant team mafia had to win but w/e)

It wasn't so much a hydra. I played mostly my own game and came to Mina and Equinox when I needed it for advice on things to do that I thought they could help me with in terms of strategy/faking reads. I also didn't feel like I was hydraing with Equinox/Mina/hito for their games, at all. You're not as involved in all 4 games as you would be if hydraing - I think.

I mean I guess it depends on how you want to play it, doesn't it zor? You can pretty much ignore your team mates if you want to.

[Benmage]

How was Stars Aligned III received by the voters? (under best town category)

It was an extremely close decision and some extra judges had to come in and break up some ties.

Word, thanks KK.

[Amrun]

I definitely didn't feel like the games were a hydra at all. It was so different for me, and it plays mind tricks - for example, "mith would never put his buddy at L-1" ... but Hoopla might.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I definitely didn't feel like the games were a hydra at all. It was so different for me, and it plays mind tricks - for example, "mith would never put his buddy at L-1" ... but Hoopla might.

I don't see how that differs from a Hydra. If you know both heads of a Hydra, and you are someone who uses meta, wouldn't you account for both players meta, and not just the one who is posting?

[zoraster]

well, i assume you account for it to some degree, but it's not the same. A game I design and moderate backed up and reviewed by hitogoroshi will be different from a game hitogoroshi designs and moderates that I back up and review and that's different from a game that we co-mod. Does that make sense? the person who is responsible and actually does the action makes the largest impact on what goes on. Certainly it gets changed by those behind that person providing advice, etc. but that's a fundamentally different thing than if it's two people posting from the same account.

[Amrun]

How the hydra actually works is different from how Team Mafia worked. So different.

A hydra is equal. Team Mafia, you still had precedence over your own game. For example, I did not suspect Sociopath D1 in White Flag, but Klazam did, and it was totally cool for him to ignore my "omg lynch dgbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb" in the QT because it was HIS GAME and HIS SLOT and I couldn't come in and go "YO JUST KIDDING DGB IS SCUM"

[Llamarble]

How the hydra actually works is different from how Team Mafia worked. So different.

A hydra is equal. Team Mafia, you still had precedence over your own game. For example, I did not suspect Sociopath D1 in White Flag, but Klazam did, and it was totally cool for him to ignore my "omg lynch dgbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb" in the QT because it was HIS GAME and HIS SLOT and I couldn't come in and go "YO JUST KIDDING DGB IS SCUM"

I was in a hydra called Force of Nature with Equinox / LLD / Grey that essentially worked just like team mafia (one posting head per game).
We weren't perfect about the separation though.

[CrashTextDummie]

You can play a hydra like Team Mafia.

You can't play Team Mafia like a hydra.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

well, i assume you account for it to some degree, but it's not the same. A game I design and moderate backed up and reviewed by hitogoroshi will be different from a game hitogoroshi designs and moderates that I back up and review and that's different from a game that we co-mod. Does that make sense? the person who is responsible and actually does the action makes the largest impact on what goes on. Certainly it gets changed by those behind that person providing advice, etc. but that's a fundamentally different thing than if it's two people posting from the same account.

The issue here is not "how it's different" but rather "how different is it?"

And while I agree, there is a SMALL difference given by only one head being able to post, it's not enough to constitute giving Team Mafia a pass in an award based solely on a mutation or mechanic.

The logic is simple and the point is clear, in my opinion. Team Mafia was a combination of several old mutations (See: Masonry + Hydras, thus accounting for individual posting in 1 game with the advice of people they know they can trust, who are also working as a team with them), but it is not a NEW mutation. That's the heart of the matter.

Don't get me wrong, I love/loved Team Mafia. I love all Zoraster games. If Strategy Mafia had been up for evaluation in my section, it would have gotten the nod from me over Cyclic.

But Team Mafia was not a new mutation and it wasn't enough of a game changing mechanic to be considered for the win. The illustrate this, Psychic Mafia won "Best Town Performance", which shows that these games stand up on their own outside of even team mafia.

I feel like you're trying to argue a semantic difference between hydras and Team Mafia, when in reality you're missing the big picture which is that it's

not different enough.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

And Zora, I don't think you'll offend me by posting your opinions here. I'm not going to be hurt if you disagree with me, and I respect you/like you enough to not take your criticisms to heart.

[Amrun]

For me, it doesn't really matter how different it IS, but rather how different it FEELS.

I think the players all approached it in a fresh, excited way. They played the game differently.

That's what matters (to me).