Experienced Players in Newbie Games - Responsibility

[mathcam]

I tend to agree with Nanook. It's hard to identify what information is being unconsciously released by even such an innocuous-sounding post as esme's posts. In any case, it does little harm to wait until after the game, and maintaining the policy of not talking about a game while it's being played goes a long way into making sure the integrity of the game is not compromised.

Cam

[esme]

1) Obviously, I thought my post(s) would not give any information other than I was frustrated and I've seen similar posts about active games before.

2) I won't do it again.

[Tamuz]

*cries*

LML you never talked to me about the game you site in the first post & I was the 7th player. (and technically, I don't have a death scence )

As to the actual topic, I, myself am quite partial to Newbies. I have actually opted out of playing mini-theme because I don't really feel like playing those, and I like Newbies better... more logic less "lets see what the cops say tonight"

[Thok]

Just for fun, here a top 10 things newbies should learn from a newbie game

10. Don't lurk-it makes you look suspicious.
9. Be patient-rushing will lead to mistakes.
8. Cops should try to investigate people who seem scummy-they're more likely to be scum.
7. Sometimes, you just need to stop talking and let yourself be lynched.
6. Random votes might not be random-for some reason scum will random vote each other.
5. Don't lurk-you'll miss important details.
4. If you are scum, be willing to sacrifice your partner for the win. He or she will be willing to sacrifice you.
3. Protect power roles-if you are a townie, you are not a bad day one lynch.
2. No kill can be a very powerful technique for scum sometimes.
1. Don't lurk-people don't like it!

(Obviously, all list entries are based on my opinions. Others may have differing opnions on lurking. They are wrong!)

[Mr Stoofer]

With a huge amount of diffidence, I'd add:

11. Don't vote for yourself if you are pro-town - however frustrated it looks. Force the scum to be voting for you when you are lynched.

[VisMaior]

7. Sometimes, you just need to stop talking and let yourself be lynched.

Uhh... what? I certainly did not learn that one.

[Narninian]

With a huge amount of diffidence, I'd add:

11. Don't vote for yourself if you are pro-town - however frustrated it looks. Force the scum to be voting for you when you are lynched.

11. B. Sometimes You might want to consider killing yourself when you are Scum. It may prevent discussion, which could be harmful to your partner.

[Thesp]

With a huge amount of diffidence, I'd add:

11. Don't vote for yourself if you are pro-town - however frustrated it looks. Force the scum to be voting for you when you are lynched.

11. B. Sometimes You might want to consider killing yourself when you are Scum. It may prevent discussion, which could be harmful to your partner.

11. B. i. Rule (11.B.) does not apply to nightkills.

[Thok]

7. Sometimes, you just need to stop talking and let yourself be lynched.

Uhh... what? I certainly did not learn that one.

This is the basic idea of the propsed rule 11B-rule 7 really applies if you are scum.

[ibaesha]

Here's a thought for experienced players. Don't exclude newbies from your discussions if at all possible. It makes them feel like they're being pushed to the side and that their thoughts are irrelevant because they're a newbie. Not a good feeling.

[Mr. Flay]

Here's a thought for experienced players. Don't exclude newbies from your discussions if at all possible. It makes them feel like they're being pushed to the side and that their thoughts are irrelevant because they're a newbie. Not a good feeling.

Excellent point. If anything, I've talked to the newbies about

not

making their voices known. I believe my quote (and I *was* pro-town, and the Cop to boot) was something along the lines of "

if you think I'm dominating the discussion, it's only because no one else is saying anything right now!

".

But then, I've got a fairly confrontational style of play...

[Narninian]

Maybe this doesnt apply only specifically to Newbie games, but its been brought up I've often seen Pro-town players simply give up and lynch themselves. I really cant think of a situation where it would be beneficial to the town for a pro-town player to do this: What does everyone Think about this?

[Mr. Flay]

Self-voting thread in Mafia Discussion

Thought it was a bad idea then, still do (I've seen a rash of players do it recently, enough to wonder if it's becoming an etiquette issue).

[rajrhcpfreak]

simular topic we had,

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2053

voting for yourself in themes could be helpful. i wouldnt think so in newbies

[Mr Stoofer]

Maybe this doesnt apply only specifically to Newbie games, but its been brought up I've often seen Pro-town players simply give up and lynch themselves.

I've been in games (both newbie and mini) where the mafia has won as a direct result of pro-town players self-voting out of frustration. I am violently against pro-town players self-voting out of frustration and would support any initiative to root it out. (I started the thread cited by Mr Flay). I will never play in a game with those who did it again.

Self-voting for genuine tactical reasons, while rare, is something I have no problem with.

[EmpTyger]

A couple related issues arose in N128, which I’d like to have discussed:

<snip>

The main purpose of newbie games is to introduce newcomers to online mafia and to give them a chance to learn from their mistakes. While winning is also important, we shouldn't restrict newbies just because they are new.<snip>

Is that the main purpose of newbie games? I mean, certainly introducing newcomers is a goal- but how? I would think that the best introduction would be by setting as good an example as possible of how a mafia game ought to be played. And the best example would seem to be one in which players play their best; that is, them trying their hardest to win. (In a sense, it’s not “Winning is also important”- it’s “Only winning is important”.) So, if there is a course of action which could [hypothetically- I am conceding that in this game, my proposal regarding Mags is at this point suboptimal] increase the chances of winning, then shouldn’t it be at the very least considered?

However, taking advantage of the newbie format seems to run counter to the large purpose: setting an example that is only applicable in newbie games seems at best useless, and at worst counterproductive.

I believe it comes down to a question of strategy vs. tactics. Without knowing which should be a higher priority for newbie games to be teaching, I’m not sure this question can be answered. But this is a very interesting question, if tangential to this game, but one I would like to explore further afterwards. For now, I will continue to play as I have been, conceding that it might not be “correct”. Perhaps I’m too inexperienced at being inexperience-challenged?

So, what is the primary responsibility of experienced players in newbie games: to win for their side, or to provide a suitable introduction for new players?

For the record, I was mafia in the game, and lost deservingly, because of a gloriously bad gambit which failed. My idea was to have my partner deliberately play badly, but, depending on the purpose of newbie games, could be construed as ethically improper. As I asked the mod about before Day 1 began:

<snip>
So, here’s my dilemma:
One goal of a newbie game is to “teach” newbies how to play. Telling them to play badly would be giving them a crutch that would only work in initial newbie games; they might win this first game, but won’t gain experience on how to play well. It would probably set a bad precedent, and would be, in my partner's case, at best a one use gimmick.

On the other hand, another goal of a newbie game is to win (ie: teach newbies how to play optimally). So, then, shouldn’t I be advising a plan which I think would probably work, even if only once? Wouldn’t the best instruction be to consider every possible gambit that might produce a victory, even if it does happen to be a gimmick?

(I'm not concerned about the non-mafia newbies; they need to learn how to tell deliberate (or semi-deliberate) bad play apart from genuine mistakes, so it would be “educational” for them. At least, that’s my rationalization. )

I'd ask about this in the mafia discussion forum, if it weren't so obviously imprudent for a game in progress...

This issue is kind of moot since this strategy was shown to be suboptimal. But if it weren't or in a similar situation, how should this be played?

And also from that game, already alluded to in this thread: ibaesha's frustration with Thok and my being cryptic. Is it worth putting powerroles at risk if the alternative is leaving newbies frustrated and ignorant, even if temporarily? (Not that this is the best example, given my alignment mafia.)

A strong fact that must be taken into account is the fact that Mags, my mafia partner in that game, has dropped out of site, which I fear might have been out of discouragement.

[EmpTyger]

10. Don't lurk-it makes you look suspicious.
9. Be patient-rushing will lead to mistakes.
8. Cops should try to investigate people who seem scummy-they're more likely to be scum.
7. Sometimes, you just need to stop talking and let yourself be lynched.
6. Random votes might not be random-for some reason scum will random vote each other.
5. Don't lurk-you'll miss important details.
4. If you are scum, be willing to sacrifice your partner for the win. He or she will be willing to sacrifice you.
3. Protect power roles-if you are a townie, you are not a bad day one lynch.
2. No kill can be a very powerful technique for scum sometimes.
1. Don't lurk-people don't like it!

I’ll agree with most of these. However, I’ll dispute (8): Players who seem scummy, while more likely to be scum, are if scum also more likely to get themselves lynched without the cop’s help. The reasons to investigate such a player would be to come forward to prove him innocent if necessary and as they’re less likely to be nightkilled by the mafia, so an investigation won’t be wasted.

[In fact, my first game online (N76) was won in part because I was tried to convince the cop that they should investigate the player *least* likely to be mafia. Admittedly, there was a specific set of circumstances {fully known setup, exposed doctor, claimed and counterclaimed cop} and the cop never actually got around to making their investigation, but the game did wind up being won by the town. The theory was that we had at most 1 investigation and were guaranteed a Day 3. The least suspicious player, after being investigated, would become a confirmed innocent guaranteed to stay alive until Day 3, and would be the one making the final decision. Unless the investigation returned guilty, which was practically the only way for them to be thought a better lynch than the other players.]

I’ll quibble with (3) for the same reason (7) was objected to. Regardless of the player’s alignment, it is bad for them to be dead and have their side with one less member. (As applied to the mafia team proven empirically...) Any townsperson death Day 1 is a bad lynch, and thus should not be encouraged. (With this fact is tautological for all players, it shouldn’t be used to argue for or against a lynch.)


Some additions of my own:

2b) No lynch can be a very powerful technique for the town sometimes.

12) If you are a powerrole whose defenses are exhausted and are about to be lynched, claim. It is your best chance of escaping lynch, and regardless of whether you do or don’t, the town will gain information based on the reactions to your claim.

12b) A scum about to be lynched should not necessarily claim a powerrole.

13) If something doesn’t make sense to you, it might not be you. Ask about it.

[Since I don't think you've done the tenet justice]
14) Don’t lurk- it makes the game less fun.
15) Don’t lurk- it gives others an excuse to lurk.
16) Don’t lurk- it leads to imposed deadlines, which take control away from the town.

0) Mafia is a game. You should be having fun. If you aren’t, something is being done wrong. Notify the mod, at the very least.

[Puzzle]

With a huge amount of diffidence, I'd add:

11. Don't vote for yourself if you are pro-town - however frustrated it looks. Force the scum to be voting for you when you are lynched.

11. B. Sometimes You might want to consider killing yourself when you are Scum. It may prevent discussion, which could be harmful to your partner.

11. B. i. Rule (11.B.) does not apply to nightkills.

11.B.i.alinea 15. Not killing other scums (SK killing Mafia and reciprocally) on the first night is poor tech.

17. Lurking also leads to loss of interest in the game and drops, hence replacements etc... and it's quite hard and unfun to build up a case against a replacer, let alone follow a game with too many.
And lurking leads to game wastes. I actually think that lurker-lynching on day 1 should be a decent alternative to random or unsure lynching. Now, that would make for an interesting other thread...

[PolarBoy]

Or several. This has been discussed up and down for a long time. I should probably wade through the old threads and write a consensus article on the wiki(anybody else could do the same).

At any rate, lurking is basically considered incredibly poor form, and while it's not necessarily an indication of scumminess, it does often inspire voting as a method of discouraging such behavior.

A problem with voting lurkers is that if they weren't interested in the game or weren't paying any attention in the first place, threatening to kill them won't necessarily get their interest.

So we're basically left with the dilemma that voting, and eventually lynching, lurkers is not necessarily good play, and doesn't necessarily reduce the number of lurkers by metagaming, while lurkers messes with the chemistry of the game.

I don't understand how not killing other scum night one can possibly considered bad technique, unless someone knows an intelligent way to identify scum before anything has happened.

Forgive me for sounding elitist or snobby or whatever, but why is it that so much advice in this thread is coming from people who joined in the last six monthes? At the very least it's somewhat ironic. I guess it's inspired some dialogue though, so wahtever.

[Mr. Flay]

10. Don't lurk-it makes you look suspicious.
9. Be patient-rushing will lead to mistakes.
8. Cops should try to investigate people who seem scummy-they're more likely to be scum.
7. Sometimes, you just need to stop talking and let yourself be lynched.
6. Random votes might not be random-for some reason scum will random vote each other.
5. Don't lurk-you'll miss important details.
4. If you are scum, be willing to sacrifice your partner for the win. He or she will be willing to sacrifice you.
3. Protect power roles-if you are a townie, you are not a bad day one lynch.
2. No kill can be a very powerful technique for scum sometimes.
1. Don't lurk-people don't like it!

I’ll agree with most of these. However, I’ll dispute (8): Players who seem scummy, while more likely to be scum, are if scum also more likely to get themselves lynched without the cop’s help. The reasons to investigate such a player would be to come forward to prove him innocent if necessary and as they’re less likely to be nightkilled by the mafia, so an investigation won’t be wasted.

But investigating those who seem innocent only has an advantage if you're planning on revealing your results, and dying early. Otherwise, you gain more by having a confirmed kill on the scummiest player, than having another innocent confirmed (this also presumes that one of the best mafia plays is to kill the most innocent-seeming player, and leave the scummy townies alone for daykills, something the cop might be able to prevent).

I’ll quibble with (3) for the same reason (7) was objected to. Regardless of the player’s alignment, it is bad for them to be dead and have their side with one less member. (As applied to the mafia team proven empirically...) Any townsperson death Day 1 is a bad lynch, and thus should not be encouraged. (With this fact is tautological for all players, it shouldn’t be used to argue for or against a lynch.)

Perhaps 3 should read:

"you are not THE WORST lynch that could happen."

[Thesp]

With a huge amount of diffidence, I'd add:

11. Don't vote for yourself if you are pro-town - however frustrated it looks. Force the scum to be voting for you when you are lynched.

11. B. Sometimes You might want to consider killing yourself when you are Scum. It may prevent discussion, which could be harmful to your partner.

11. B. i. Rule (11.B.) does not apply to nightkills.

11.B.i.alinea 15. Not killing other scums (SK killing Mafia and reciprocally) on the first night is poor tech.

I was referring to newbie games.

[Thesp]

But investigating those who seem innocent only has an advantage if you're planning on revealing your results, and dying early. Otherwise, you gain more by having a confirmed kill on the scummiest player, than having another innocent confirmed (this also presumes that one of the best mafia plays is to kill the most innocent-seeming player, and leave the scummy townies alone for daykills, something the cop might be able to prevent).

Double post power!

I always thought it to be a better strategy to investigate people of whom there is less information to work from.

[Thok]

My reasons for my suggestion on whom to investiagte (and this is at leat partially based on my experience in newbie games).

1. Scummy looking people are slightly more likely to live through the night. You don't want your cop investigation to die on you. (In a newbie game, this is a fairly important concern.)
2. If a scummy looking person is scum, it should be easy to lynch him without forcing the cop to reveal himself.
3. If a scummy looking person is innocent, you'll gain information on people who choose to attack him.

[PolarBoy]

I was referring to newbie games.

Just for fun, here a top 10 things newbies should learn from a newbie game

This was a list of things newbies were supposed to learn from a newbie game that they could apply to regular games.

Why are we compiling this list? It's beginning to look like Frankenstein's monster with hot sauce on top.

[engine776]

I think some of the "step above basic" concepts need to be explained to newer players before the game even begins. While a new player can scan the Wiki all day and learn the rules, there's so much to the game that goes beyond rules. The concept of random and "OMGUS" voting, when claims are appropriate, how counter-claims work, why we lynch lurkers, and so forth, are as important to understand as what a cop investigation does.

Where can i get one like that? ?