Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)


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Post Post #1900 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:04 am

Post by F-16_Fighting_Falcon »

In post 1897, Tierce wrote:Vi never said their purpose was 'malicious'. A replacement that is doing anything less than playing to win is a poor replacement.

The point is that replacements can strongly alter the gamestate. Town doesn't usually play for the long game, but scum have to. Therefore, replacing a weak scum player with a stronger one will help scum (less odds of being lynched and better odds of being a capable planner), but replacing lynchbait Town with a strong Town player can be utterly devastating for scum long term plans.


I don't know if "malicious" was the right word. What I meant to say was that I doubt they replaced in so they could "play the hero" which carries a negative connotation and perhaps they replaced in merely because they were interested and wanted to help.

The alteration of gamestate is an interesting point of discussion. From my experience, I don't really care if lynchbait is replaced when I am scum. I just try to lynch the new player. Open 448 was a good example. However, I know for a fact that if some specific players I was buddying to in that game got replaced, it probably would have effected the outcome, i.e. I care more about endgame-bait being replaced than lynchbait because those are the players you are ultimately planning your master deception on. I agree that scum have to rethink their entire strategy upon strong players coming into the game and that can be challenging.
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Post Post #1901 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:07 am

Post by Thor665 »

So, then is the issue not one of replacements but rather one of strong replacements?
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Post Post #1902 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:13 am

Post by Oversoul »

To be fair, JT did say "I love easy wins"

But who doesn't?

I replaced into Futurama because I thought it was clear Cheery was lying.
I replaced into Red Dead because I knew it would be a wash and an easy win. Literally all I had
To do in both those games was vote in LyLo.
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Post Post #1903 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:15 am

Post by Oversoul »

This game had a whole lot more than the predatory aspect. The fact that the replacements had a reliable base of westeros + EM history was really the difficult part.
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Post Post #1904 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:16 am

Post by Thor665 »

Is that any different from replacing in because you see players you like to play with, though?
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Post Post #1905 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:24 am

Post by Oversoul »

Yes.

It just so happened that this game checked both those boxes for JT. :/
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Post Post #1906 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:37 am

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

In post 1903, Oversoul wrote:The fact that the replacements had a reliable base of westeros + EM history was really the difficult part.

That's more of a general playerlist effect. I don't think "playing the hero"-type replacements are nearly common enough to be a problem (I often don't even check the game state apart from seeing who's still alive); the main issue with replacements is just that they can really ruin scum planning, especially when that involves getting a few specific mislynches.
Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!

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Post Post #1907 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:29 am

Post by Oversoul »

Also, I want this to be known. I have nothing against those who replaced in and I doubt Vi does either. Replacements are highly necessary. It's just they change the game state.
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Post Post #1908 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:35 am

Post by Faraday »

In post 1902, Oversoul wrote:To be fair, JT did say "I love easy wins"

um
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Post Post #1909 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:37 am

Post by Faraday »

In post 1898, Vi wrote:Question for Faregfan: why replace into this game?

i wanted to play the hero
are you thinking of me when you're with somebody else?
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Post Post #1910 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:37 am

Post by Faraday »

In post 1897, Tierce wrote:Vi never said their purpose was 'malicious'. A replacement that is doing anything less than playing to win is a poor replacement.

(no but it was certainly implied to be a negative thing? :? )
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Post Post #1911 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:40 am

Post by Faraday »

so as long as the replacement is a scrub it's okay i guess
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Post Post #1912 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:42 am

Post by Tammy »

In post 1909, Faraday wrote:
In post 1898, Vi wrote:Question for Faregfan: why replace into this game?

i wanted to play the hero


Did you want to play my hero? You saw how much people weren't believing sixty-scum and came to our rescue? That was so kind!
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Post Post #1913 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:44 am

Post by Ser Arthur Dayne »

Fun fact:

I haven't even clicked on pages 10-23, nvm read them.
vezokpiraka: If you are playing on EUNE we can duo.
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Post Post #1914 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:46 am

Post by Faraday »

here is why we replaced into the game. man we're so such heroes i almost wanna dress up in a cape and go fight crime
Regfan (12:19:52):
Have you followed callforjudgements open at all?

Faraday (12:19:58):
nah


Faraday (12:20:03):
I don't think so


Regfan (12:20:10):
Has an incredible playerlist


Regfan (12:20:25):

Player list
Voidedmafia
Equinox
Sixty (Vi + Tierce)
PiggyGal15
Cerulean (Empire + Tammy)
JesseSheffield
N
Soul2277 (Mehdi2277 + Oversoul)
Thor665
absta101



Faraday (12:20:32):
oh


Faraday (12:20:34):
I saw it, yeah


Regfan (12:21:24):
If you see a town slot being replaced


Regfan (12:21:27):
We should hydra-join it.


Faraday (12:23:01):
sure


Faraday (12:23:10):
tammy's posting is kinda all over the place atm


Regfan (12:23:30):
Isn't she always all over the place though


Faraday (12:23:50):
she's not even using capital letters. very suspicious


Regfan (12:24:00):
Suggest lynch then


justin timberlake exposed. the hero gotham needs but not the one it deserves
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Post Post #1915 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:47 am

Post by Faraday »

In post 1912, Tammy wrote:
In post 1909, Faraday wrote:
In post 1898, Vi wrote:Question for Faregfan: why replace into this game?

i wanted to play the hero


Did you want to play my hero? You saw how much people weren't believing sixty-scum and came to our rescue? That was so kind!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koJlIGDImiU
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Post Post #1916 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:00 am

Post by Tammy »

Faraday (12:23:10):
tammy's posting is kinda all over the place atm


Regfan (12:23:30):
Isn't she always all over the place though


Faraday (12:23:50):
she's not even using capital letters. very suspicious


Regfan (12:24:00):
Suggest lynch then

---------------

LOL! I'm always all over the place? I feel like I usually start pulling it together at some point. But, typing on an iPad makes capital letters inconvenient. :p
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Post Post #1917 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:59 am

Post by Vi »

In post 1899, Thor665 wrote:I actually endorse the 'replace out if no fun' concept - if they stay they are a detriment to their team. It's no different from replacing out because you don't have time to play, which is also a detriment to your team.
Neither of these should be a thing. If you don't have time to play, play the best you can anyway. If you're not having fun,
that's part of the game
; get over yourself and start being awesome. It's certainly more part of the game than casually replacing out - otherwise I would have suggested this puppy replace out as soon as Empire started talking so we wouldn't have that dirty stain of a scum loss on our wiki pages. That whole "you should think of it as a loss if you replace out" thing is hardly site policy.

Or to consider your point of view - the instant someone becomes lynchbait, they should replace out to help their faction. It's the optimum play; replacements start with a relatively clean slate, it's good for their faction, and they don't have to deal with the hassle of defending themselves or scrambling. Why
wouldn't
you jump off a sinking ship? Getting lynched is no fun, after all.

Thor wrote:I'd agree that I would like to see more attention given to serial flakers. We have some site policing of this habit, but it would be awesome if something akin to the karma system went back into play.
There is no "back". Individual moderators have to step up to make this place better.

Thor wrote:
In post 1894, Vi wrote:The other half comes in predatory replacements, people who see a chance to dominate a game they're not in and replace in so they can play the hero. I fully understand why people do this; I question how many of those people have been on the receiving end of that happening to them.
I've never even considered this as a thing - do you really think it is?
For some people, yes. The last game I replaced into (months ago) I did so because I thought the slot was Town and knew I could peg at least one scum immediately. And I'm saying that on some level that's wrong.

Thor wrote:So, then is the issue not one of replacements but rather one of strong replacements?
Replacements of any caliber coming in because they think they have a good chance of joining the winning side.

As for replacing in to join a player list - thanks but no thanks, to be entirely honest. If you'll excuse me for being extra-whiny in this sentence, that's why this doesn't happen in every game - just games I'm in. If I like you and want to see you, I'll meet you outside the game.
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Post Post #1918 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:03 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1917, Vi wrote:Or to consider your point of view - the instant someone becomes lynchbait, they should replace out to help their faction. It's the optimum play; replacements start with a relatively clean slate, it's good for their faction, and they don't have to deal with the hassle of defending themselves or scrambling. Why
wouldn't
you jump off a sinking ship? Getting lynched is no fun, after all.

Nah - there's a difference between playing the best you can and being unable to play.

In post 1917, Vi wrote:Replacements of any caliber coming in because they think they have a good chance of joining the winning side.

I guess I'm saved from this because I never even really look at a game before replacing in.
But, still, whenever I replace in I expect to be on the winning side.

I have to admit, maybe just at least for our discussion, the core issue can be summed up in your note about "having a scum loss on our record"
I think the problem and the complaint would stem from players who have serious goals/desires as regards their record.
Maybe we need games that are geared towards this that punish replace outs more appropriately?
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Post Post #1919 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:05 pm

Post by F-16_Fighting_Falcon »

@ Thor, interesting hypothetical:

If you replace out at the end of the Day and no one replaces in yet and the mod announces a replacement during the night, and that replacement is killed the same night (without ever getting a chance to post), would you consider the game as part of your win/loss record? Assume you had a legit reason for replacing out.
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Post Post #1920 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:10 pm

Post by Vi »

In post 1918, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1917, Vi wrote:Or to consider your point of view - the instant someone becomes lynchbait, they should replace out to help their faction. It's the optimum play; replacements start with a relatively clean slate, it's good for their faction, and they don't have to deal with the hassle of defending themselves or scrambling. Why
wouldn't
you jump off a sinking ship? Getting lynched is no fun, after all.
Nah - there's a difference between playing the best you can and being unable to play.
Replacing out because you are literally unable to play is, of course, understandable.

In post 1917, Vi wrote:Replacements of any caliber coming in because they think they have a good chance of joining the winning side.
I guess I'm saved from this because I never even really look at a game before replacing in.
But, still, whenever I replace in I expect to be on the winning side.
I mean more than because you're replacing in and you have no intention of losing, obv. :P

I have to admit, maybe just at least for our discussion, the core issue can be summed up in your note about "having a scum loss on our record"
I think the problem and the complaint would stem from players who have serious goals/desires as regards their record.
Maybe we need games that are geared towards this that punish replace outs more appropriately?
Win/loss records are vanity.
No, I'm interested in playing to win, which is remarkably harder when forces outside the game consistently proceed to pull the rug from under me.

Your last sentence implies that maybe some games would be okay punishing replacements inappropriately, but etc.
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Post Post #1921 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:52 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1919, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:@ Thor, interesting hypothetical:

If you replace out at the end of the Day and no one replaces in yet and the mod announces a replacement during the night, and that replacement is killed the same night (without ever getting a chance to post), would you consider the game as part of your win/loss record? Assume you had a legit reason for replacing out.

I've never replaced out or been replaced, so I've never had to consider such things.
I have been that replacement...

I would probably proscribe to the concept that a replace out is akin to a quit and either not count the game or count it as a loss, and do that for all replace outs regardless of the situation of what happened afterward because it would be an absolute condition.

In post 1920, Vi wrote:No, I'm interested in playing to win, which is remarkably harder when forces outside the game consistently proceed to pull the rug from under me.

I always play to win - I'll honestly admit I consider replacements to just be part of the hand you're dealt.
It's like when you're scum and the utter VI has the Innocent Child role and you're basically obligated to kill him. Or, when you're town and your strongest town read reveals he's a confirmable PR. Yeah, it would be so much easier to win if those situations didn't happen like that. But that's mafia, adaptation of gameplan is part of the joy of the game to my mind.
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Post Post #1922 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:04 pm

Post by Vi »

In post 1921, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1920, Vi wrote:No, I'm interested in playing to win, which is remarkably harder when forces outside the game consistently proceed to pull the rug from under me.
I always play to win - I'll honestly admit I consider replacements to just be part of the hand you're dealt.
It's like when you're scum and the utter VI has the Innocent Child role and you're basically obligated to kill him. Or, when you're town and your strongest town read reveals he's a confirmable PR. Yeah, it would be so much easier to win if those situations didn't happen like that. But that's mafia, adaptation of gameplan is part of the joy of the game to my mind.
Except replacements are outside the scope of the game.
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Post Post #1923 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:09 pm

Post by Thor665 »

Eh...I'm not sure I agree with that stance. On a theoretical level, yeah...but I feel like that's saying 'a player having a bad day and looking scummy because they're kvetching and easy to peeve off in thread is outside the game'

As I often say, all votes are serious and all posts can have scumtells - especially the non-serious votes and the non-game relevant posts. I sort of feel once the thread is open; it's go time on every level.
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Post Post #1924 (ISO) » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:52 pm

Post by Faraday »

In post 1917, Vi wrote: If you'll excuse me for being extra-whiny in this sentence, that's why this doesn't happen in every game - just games I'm in.

what
are you thinking of me when you're with somebody else?

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