Color = Black

[VisMaior]

To heck with voting!

daykill Thoth

[Nemesis]

Could I disagree with this bandwagon a moment. Not that many people posting in this thread so far so very few votes to lynch. You guys are scummy as hell for trying to lynch a vig. Even though he isn't a confirmed vig and it could be a scum set up. I think we should wait for a counterclaim.

FOS all three of you.

Also, I'd like to point out the more someone posts the less people are going to bother. For example, my posts are usually so long that several of them would take ages to search through, I use "D" "C" "P" and "O" fairly often too.

Calc a probability of a vig and you'd probably find him scummy as hell, but I think everyone should hide a claim first though. Although I'd expect that much hidden info to be spaced out in a normal game.

[Fiasco]

Seems to me that if you put enough time into it, you can settle on a code for any inter-scum communication you want, without being noticed. If they can do it already with a lot of time expense, maybe it's more logical to just allow scum to talk via PM by day?

[Seol]

Seems to me that if you put enough time into it, you can settle on a code for any inter-scum communication you want, without being noticed. If they can do it already with a lot of time expense, maybe it's more logical to just allow scum to talk via PM by day?

QFT.

I've day-communicated with mason buddies before following an underivable and unnoticeable code. It didn't carry much information, but it wouldn't be hard to elaborate on that to the point where almost anything that was conceivably required to be communicated ould be done undetectably.

That said... if the scum try

that

hard, then surely they deserve rewards? Allowing daytalking just makes it too easy.

[Fiasco]

On hidden claims in early posts: yes, in theory anyone could do that, but in practice, the fact that you went to the trouble does indicate you're more likely to have that role. If everyone coded their roles into their early posts, scum would either have to decide on their fake claims before having enough information, or they would have to encode all possible claims they might want to make. So it seems to me to be game-breaking, and should be either outlawed or considered unethical.

[Fiasco]

That said... if the scum try

that

hard, then surely they deserve rewards?

Not sure... I think scum should be rewarded for clever play, not for just putting a lot of time into thinking up a code and following it. (They should be spending that time participating in games instead. )

Maybe the best thing is not to allow day-talking, *and* not to allow codes. But that seems hard to define objectively. It's probably best to say that such codes are unethical and against the spirit of the game, and rely on the players not to use them too much.

[mith]

So it seems to me to be game-breaking, and should be either outlawed or considered unethical.

I would suggest that in this case, it is up to the mod to ensure that the game is not broken by such ploys. Poorly designed games are routinely broken by mass claims, no lynch, etc.; you can't fault the players for trying to win.

Anyway, clever scum could code multiple roles in different ways.

[Fiasco]

I would suggest that in this case, it is up to the mod to ensure that the game is not broken by such ploys.

What if that isn't possible for the kinds of game we like to play on the site?

Anyway, clever scum could code multiple roles in different ways.

I think this is as much a matter of having enough time to kill as of being clever. I can see it becoming a chore to do at the beginning of each game. A scum would have to foresee all the roles he might want to claim later, and put them all into his posts.

One way to hide multiple messages is to make more or longer posts, but that would look suspicious in itself; also, if you point at a hidden message in the third sentence of ten, people are going to ask whether you hid others in the other sentences. Clever townies will make an obvious first post that is not long enough to hide multiple claims in.

Another way is to hide multiple messages in the same amount of text, but that will make it sound awkward quickly. And once you've pointed at one message, people are going to look hard for the others...

PS: I do agree that players should get away (ethically as well as modkill-wise) with things like this if the mod has not explicitly stated otherwise.

[Norinel]

What's the difference?

One is hiding the text, the other is hiding the message within the text.

[Fritzler]

As a mod I have no problem with it, also i have no problem with invistext, so take that as you will.

[EmpTyger]

To me there are 2 distinct issues: one is the practice of communication, and the narrower issue of colortags to hide message. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with codes being used- there's always going to be some level of tacit communication going on. But colortagging seems to me to be like invisitext- it becomes nothing but a hassle if a player must click to investigate each and every post lest they miss a hidden message. And that, to me, seems to be reason to forbid it. Though I suppose the best solution is, just as with invisitext, to have mods who feel likewise specifically forbid it in the rules.

[Fritzler]

yea, also cool with day talking, so it doesn't really matter

[Kenji]

Fritz, is there anything you're not cool with?

[bigAl]

On a different note, if forum mafia is trying to emulate face to face mafia, should codes be legal? I mean, you can't exactly talk in secret codes very easily. Though you could probably wisper to your neighbours without everyone hearing. Thoughts?

[Falcone]

There was an example of this in Mini 237. I was a mason with d8P. He and the 3rd member claimed Day 1, for some reason. (I think the 3rd member was about to be lynched, and d8P came forward to confirm him.) Then N1 the 3rd was killed, and d8P sent me a message telling me he hid clues in his posts that I could point out to prove I was the last mason, should the need appear. One of his clues involved color tags.

I remember I was impressed at the time that someone would go to such lengths to help confirm someone, but I didn't feel that his play was unethical or something.

(Anyway, d8P turned out to be a Mason Traitor in that game, and won the game for the mafia, but that's another story.)

[rajrhcpfreak]

in real life mafia you can wink, nod, poke, etc.

sometimes you are caught, sometimes you arnt.

sometimes they will see your [color=clack and somtimes you wont.

[Yosarian2]

Codes are fine. In fact, there are a lot of situations where it's a good idea to use a code; usually as scum, but as town it can be a good idea as well. One example of where this worked well was a misetings game where two people both claimed "gunsmith", and both said they had found a person with a gun. When the town asked them both to reveal their results, person A said that he discovered a certain person had a gun; at which point person B demonstrated that he had planted a rather obscure code in an earlier message saying that the exact same person had a gun, and this let him confirm his gunsmith claim in a way he wouldn't have otherwise been able to. (Turns out, he actually was a scum gunsmith, but that's another story).

The only problem I might have about putting other kinds of invisible messages into posts is that if it became too common, it'd be annoying to have to go through and hit "quote" on every single post in the game to make sure you don't miss anything important. (shrug) More an annoyance factor then because it's unfair or unbalanced in any way. Not really a big deal, though.

[Commodore Amazing]

if it became too common, it'd be annoying to have to go through and hit "quote" on every single post in the game to make sure you don't miss anything important. (shrug) More an annoyance factor then because it's unfair or unbalanced in any way.

QFT

[Thok]

Frankly, using a code to defend yourself is lazy. If you really

n

eed to use a code to defend y

o

urself, perhaps you should concetra

t

e more on the game and less on trying to be clever.

I don't try to look for codes, and I h

a

ve been known to make fun of people who try to post their role in

c

ode. For the m

o

st part, if I need to figure out a player's role, I simply try to pick up hints from the posts in the threa

d

. In particular, masons are

e

much more powerful if they expose their role as an endgame surprise; posting helps scum find them and makes it more likely to have them die off before endgame.

[Twomz]

I have no problem w/ using invisitext or patterns, whatever you like. As Rajr said, in f2f mafia you can use hand guestures and such to alert people to your ability... ect. (like if only 2 people in the group know sign language... but that's a bad example)

In the end, it's up to the Mod's descretion (much like quoting PMs, bold vs colored votes, whether FOS's are counted... etc.)

And and about Strookers law 2... that could account for any number of activities... like quoting, ranting, etc (using ellipses). The more content that is put in a thread, the more diverse the content will be. If you had a thread of infinite length, it would incompass all possible patterns, ideas, habits... whatever.

[Alexander]

I

have no problem w/ using invi

s

itext or patterns, whatever you like. As Rajr said, in f2f mafia you can use hand guestures and such to alert people to your ability... ect. (like if only 2 people in the group kno

w

sign languag

e

... but that's a bad ex

a

mple)

In the end, i

t

's up to the Mod's descretion (much like quoting PMs, bold vs colored votes, whether FOS's are counted... etc.)

And and about Strookers l

a

w 2... that cou

l

d account for any number of activities... like qu

o

ting, ranting, etc (using ellipses). The more con

t

ent that is put in a thread, the more diverse the content will be. If you had a thread of infinite length, it would incompass all possible patterns, ideas, habits... whatever.

"I sweat a lot" ?

What kind of secret message is this?! I don't get you guys, can you just post in plain English?

[Mr. Flay]

I'd probably modkill/disallow it (as mod) IN a game if it became a problem, but the color code thing seems so fraught with danger that it's not worth it, either as scum or town.

[Turbovolver]

but first word in each sentence is hard to do. and its obvious to see.
if you see the first word of each sentence is suspicious then the town knows.

O RLY? Why'd you investigate me then, if you already knew I was doc?

Although you do say word when the guy was talking about letters, and I'm assuming letters here.

While we're talking about the validity of hidden claims, what do people think about what I did?

I was the doctor, claimed to not be the doctor but in the same post hid a message informing everybody I actually was the doctor. It was very unlikely to be picked up, but could be pointed back to later. This way if scum ever claimed doc to try to avoid a lynch, I could nail them, and if for some other reason people revealed they weren't the doc I could protect the cop and prevent a nightkill. Technically I don't think it was lying to the town because all the information was right there, but I can see if I later claimed to be the doc when earlier saying I wasn't, despite any hidden messages, might look rather bad. As does my English here, but I cant be bothered to fix it up



As for the

legality

of hidden claims, I think color=black shouldn't be legal (along with hidden URLs and invisitext)... hiding messages in your posts makes sense flavourwise, but hiding messages using forum tools doesn't. The forums should exist only as a meeting place to allow gameplay and ease of moderation, not as a part of the game themselves (so yeah, looking at who's online during the nighttime is rather suss too, but harder to prevent. I think it's best I go back in invisible mode )

[Mr Stoofer]

Strookers

Is that meant to be me?

PMSL!

[Twomz]

LOL!... yes.