Newbie 1424 (Game Over)

[T S O]

Vote Gravity

I can't allow you to justify your actions by using the newbie get-out clause. "Confused newbie"? Please.

[T S O]

Some people believe that's a scum tell, a variation of IIoA, or information instead of analysis.

I'm on the fence, this time.

And what do you believe in relation to that scumtell, Amrun?

[T S O]

Hey TSO, in light of Gravity's posts after your vote for him do you still believe he's scum?

No.

[T S O]

I DO find reads lists harmful to the town, and at the very least not helpful. Only a quarter of your reads are ever important at any given time, and giving the scum full information gives them a road map on who to kill, and which opinions are the most popular to suggest in-thread. It also encourages rigidity in the town.

I also have been a bit taciturn by design. As an IC, I am in perfect position to be sheeped. In my last IC game, I was almost blindly sheeped. I'm trying a new approach.

GOD YES

THIS IS MY EXACT VIEW TO READLISTS

THANK YOU!

[T S O]

for god's sake guys if I'm not here I'm obviously going to be fucking quiet, there's a difference between lurking and just not being on the thread at all. .__.

idk about Fegelein, I know his meta and he's obstinate but this still seems sorta out of place.

I'm gonna re-read.

[T S O]

unvote

again, I'm re-reading.

[T S O]

Read at your own risk. My analysis on everyone is probably awful. Feel free to ask me about certain things, or why I feel that why about a certain person and I will provide as much evidence as I can as for why I feel that way.

Okay. Play the newbie card once more, and I'll re-vote you and tunnel for the rest of the day.

Seriously, there's no need for it, and you continue to do it.

[T S O]

Amrun, it's one thing to be an IC. It's another thing to completely sit in the back and ask taciturn questions while not giving hard opinions yourself. You've been getting better, but there's a fine line between being a good IC and not scumhunting.

[T S O]

Flammus is Town.

Cpl is leaning scum.

[T S O]

MMMGGHHH

I really need to start posting.

[T S O]

before I address any of this, just call me TSO as opposed to T S O. Save yourself the time.

[T S O]

Grimm's logic about Gravity looks sound. I really like the parts you bolded and explained the repetition of language.

Which people make you feel the most uneasy?

I think the Game itself has made me feel more uneasy as I'm just beginning to understand it, the Wagon that started on me made me feel a bit "Woah, what's going on?!" and I stepped back and looked at the situation and I can now understand why people took my posts the wrong way.

You explained yourself really well here. This is how I felt my first newbie game. I'm tempted to quote some of the lines that are similar. I dont know how it feels to have a bandwagon on you, but I can understand the uneasieness involved in your first game and how you stepped back and reanalyzed your posts.

I like Flammus the most so far.

I have that effect on people.

Gravity's reaction was pretty strong and he's been quick to defend himself repeatedly, but not sure if that's enough for me to put him at L-1.

I also found this a particularly bad reaction to the events. Having a hard time to put under words why, but it made me wary of PoppedEye. Playing the good guy by saying you don't feel comfortable with an L-1 on page 2 just rubs me the wrong way.

Further evidence that PoppedEye seems very keen on hunting for towncred (as opposed to hunting for scum):

I'm a little torn on this. I mean, if I had a slight scumread on someone but not enough for it to be an L-1, then thats understandable. Of course, it would soley be for your own game because if you put him at L-1 and he gets hammered, then flips as town, then 4 other people share the blame with you. And if he flips scum, then well. Towncred. At that POV it makes him look scummy.

When suspicion turned slightly to Poppedeye, that was enough for me to jump off the bandwagon.

I don't like this. Im sure when Cpl rereads this he'll go "crap, shouldnt have said that". But he pretty much just admitted to hopping bandwagons off of slight suspicion. His statement would float with me a little better if he had said "When Poppedeye said something I thought was suspicious" or something like that. But to me, it sounds like he's just following the general town majority.
Cpl, I really want to hear your own reads right now. What do you think about Grimm's statements?

UNVOTE: Gravity
I'd go for him being town at this time.

So whos you're next scummiest?

At that point I do feel a bit of pressure, like I'm getting ganged up on. I'm only going on gut instinct because there isn't much else to go on yet. I theorize that if Feg is scum looking for a quick patsy (i.e. me), then lexy or Grav must be his partner to add fuel to the fire.
#14 - Flammus random votes Cpl for using profanity.
#15 - Grav immediately apologizes for his quick vote, claiming ignorance. (lexy does not respond, nor has she posted since)
#16 - TSO puts down the first serious vote, calling Grav out for playing the noob card.

At that point, Grav felt the pressure and defended himself to the best of his newbie abilities.

Don't like the hypocrisy from Poppedeye's end, he reacted to his wagon quite strongly too, and yet he calls Grav out for it.

I reacted by asking lexy and Grav why they chose to random vote me. That was my reaction, I did not defend myself in any way, just asked for more info. I felt like an easy target because my name/avatar was receiving a lot of flak. I never "called Grav out for it", TSO did that in post #16. In post #29 I agreed that his reaction was "pretty strong", but that I wasn't sure "that's enough for me to put him at L-1".

It was my understanding that RVS votes were typically "I've played with you and you're good. I vote you." "I interpret your name to be affiliated with scum. Vote." -Feg "Your avatar gives me the heebie jeebies. Vote." -Gravity
Who knows. Maybe Popeyed is doctor? We'd be lynching a power role solely on his avatar or past history. It's my belief that words will betray you, not your username. It's called RANDOM voting stage, and the reasons that accompany it are solely for humor. I.E. "cursing is a scum tell" -Flammus
I problaby over explained this.

RVS doesn't have to be all jokes: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13710

Either I said something misleading or you're misreading, but my point is that it IS a silly vote. Fegs vote was silly, and I was replying to popped eye who said (paraphrasing) "he problaby thought my avatar is distracting", to which I said "I think he was simply making a silly vote."

He probably was making a silly vote, but I take most everything, even jokes, into consideration.

---
Right now I'm leaning toward Grav being town and lexy being scum, since Grav has made many seemingly honest attempts to defend himself and lexy has been quiet since I questioned her in post #13. If either turn out to be scum then my suspicion of Fegelein will be significantly raised.

I would still like to hear something from mnemonic.

If Feg is scum and Grav or cpl are partners trying to add fuel, then that might be a bad strategy on the partners part.
Most of the time RVS is a joke. But I dont like disscussing RVS techniques when were way out of RVS.
This was a very weak analysis of your summary...

@Cpl: I am not sure of a conspiracy, I had a gut feeling in RVS and nothing has happened to weaken that idea. When 3 people all call me out on account of a punny name/avatar, I got suspicious. I browsed other games on here before signing up and never came across that kind of behavior in RVS, so I questioned the 2nd and 3rd "random" votes on me in the hopes of gaining more info. Grav feigned "noob" reasons for his vote and got flak for it but seems town. Meanwhile lexy has disappeared and Fegelein has responded once since his initial "random" vote with a post of weak info that adds nothing to the discussion while piling on more suspicion toward me.

@Amrun: The only thing I said that can be construed as hypocritical was the line "This is my first game, too." in post #13. It was meant as a rebuttal to Grav's vote. I'm actually curious to know now the full extent of hypocrisy. I don't remember changing my vote to Gravity after he got called out. Grav seems as forthcoming as I have been, so I currently have no reason to suspect him.

You defend yourself good here. Lets change gears here from you defending yourself to you being assertive. Who are your town/scum reads so far, if you care to share them?

My vote was just random Poppedeye, it was never intended to be taken as a serious vote. I was looking for a way to contribute when I entered the thread and immediately noticed your Avatar/Name combination and it was the best way for me to vote someone at that time and contribute to the thread.

@Cpl: I am not sure of a conspiracy, I had a gut feeling in RVS and nothing has happened to weaken that idea. When 3 people all call me out on account of a punny name/avatar, I got suspicious....

Meanwhile lexy has disappeared and Fegelein has responded once since his initial "random" vote with a post of weak info that adds nothing to the discussion while piling on more suspicion toward me..

Yes, three people called you out, and the reasons were, well, that your selfie bore scarlet markings, that you had a popped eye, and that you had a strange avatar. I'm not really sure what I think about that, I mean, I'm sure after a while those random votes would have gone away.

However, I must admit I can see a person concerned at L-2, and I suppose I can see myself reacting as you did.

On the other hand, I would strongly like to hear from lexyclaire.

The votes would have for sure went away. Im not still going to be voting Cpl on day 3 because of his profanity, unless he gives me a reason to keep it on him. And we cant really blame someone for backtracking while on L-2.

Oops, he did answer.

Poppedeye: So how wa the summary meant to address the hypocrisy?

Amrun, what are your reads so far?

Looking back at Flammus' posts, I am seeing a lot of passiveness. Sometimes arguing both sides in the same post. He's trying to stay neutral. Scummy.

Pretty much says what Feg says. I mean, he may just be having trouble finding a "silly" reason for RVSing, but I feel like its to close to what Feg said.

Here it almost sounds like he's apologizing for Gravity's behavior.

UNVOTE: Fegelein
VOTE: Flammus

If Flammus flips scum, we can push for Fegelein's lynch tomorrow.

P-edit: You and Fegelein have been playing two different games, one slow and calculated the other fast and varied, which would be good scum strategy.

My stratgey while analyzing posts have been take it one sentence or paragraph at a time. So if I see a good pro-town point, then Im going to say it. If I see a scummy way of wording or something, then I'll say it. It seems like the way you want me to go about it is read a post, then say whether its "scum or town".

Everything he says tends to make sense. And I think his last post is a very honest way of analysis.

[T S O]

Everything he says tends to make sense. And I think his last post is a very honest way of analysis.

TSO, this is such a diverging view on Flammus's posting content and his 'taking it sentence by sentence' style of analysis in contrast to Poppedeye (post 185), Amrum (post 199), CplHenderson (post 205) and myself (post 160) - comments on this?

Giving myself an ultimatum. Either I catch-up in the next 12 hours or I sub out.

Get your shit together and let's hunt scum!

If my view is different to the rest of the game, so be it. I see no reason to comment.

[T S O]

Fair enough. But if you're going to point the finger at Amrun, let's see some proof of suspicion other than "I don't like the way she plays the game".

Honestly Poppedeye, all I'm seeing is her playing backseat interviewer. Her biggest contribution yet was her read on me. Other than that, though she has the most posts, she's done mostly nothing but ask questions. Is it keeping the ball rolling. Yeah. Is it demanding participation on her part? Not really. Now yes, the deadline is coming. And yes, a lynch always helps town with a flip. And I like Cpl wanting a lynch. Grimm makes a good point with the "playing the part" bit. Is my scum read very very strong on Amrun? No. But she's my #1 suspect. Your vote is like your weapon as she says. VOTE: Amrun

Seems to me you're just OMGUS voting on Amrun and trying to pressure others into lynching someone now. We still have 5 days, we are not at deadline.

There is an obvious difference between her IC advice posts and actual play posts. To accuse her of "playing the part" is ridiculous. That's what she's supposed to do, be the IC. So far she has kept her "parts" of IC and player separate and I haven't seen her dodge a question yet. Nobody is pressuring her because nobody has reason to suspect she is scum.

Flammus: "Amrun is backseating and constantly asking questions without giving any hard reads or opinions.
Poppedeye: "Nobody is pressuring her because no-one thinks she's scum."

There's a subtle difference here in Poppedye's answer. Flammus is complaining that because she gives no opinions she can't be accountable for anything. Poppedye says no-one thinks she's scum. But if she gives no hard answers, she can't be questioned on them. And questioning someone is the #1 way of forming a scumread.

[T S O]

Let's see them.

[T S O]

It's called quoting.

[T S O]

You answered your own question at the start. I disagree with readlists. But that's off the point.

I said you avoided giving hard opinions. You said you've answered every question you've been asked and you give hard opinions. I ask to see them. You make an issue about reads or lack of them, and then say I haven't been reading the thread enough. Where did reads ever come into this? Quote me posts where you've given hard, decent opinions. Backseating doesn't count.

[T S O]

Is the last line of your post an ad hom or a really badly-put saying?

Regardless, #181 is an example of backseating, or whatever acronym you enjoy.

Why do you refuse to quote any posts to show why my arguments are untrue? Be aggressive. If my case is false, meet it head on.

[T S O]

You're scum! I hope that changes things for you.

My case is that you don't take enough strong stances, if any. Flammus is scum. That is the only thing I have seen you say that matters whatsoever definitively, in your whole ISO.

Now the burden of assumption is with me, brah.

[T S O]

Since when the fuck was hypocrisy a scumtell? Amrun hasn't quoted the posts because there are no fucking posts to quote! Me doing or not doing something has no fucking relation to the Amrun-scum case. I never said Amrun was a bad IC either.

One of Poppedeye and Henderson are scum. That chainsaw was way too fast.

[T S O]

If my view is different to the rest of the game, so be it. I see no reason to comment.

First you say that terribly scummy line in post 232, and now you demand comment from Amrun? You're not working for this town.

UNVOTE: Flammus
VOTE: T S O

I'm going with TSO as definite scum, and either Flammus or Fegelein is his buddy.

yeah

Unvote:
Vote Poppedeye:

He doesn't explain why that "terribly scummy line" is scummy at all, says that demanding content from Amrun isn't working for the town (again, no explanation), chainsaw votes me and calls me definite scum. After one post. That's a standard newbie chainsaw

[T S O]

Post 232 is NOT helpful to town. If you're unwilling to answer questions and help narrow down suspects, then you have something to hide. I'm on my phone and at work. Will post more tonight.

What did you expect me to post?

[T S O]

You're obviously pushing my lynch if you're voting me.

Why do you have blind faith in Amrun?

[T S O]

Well, what do you want me to "ratify"?

[T S O]

Yes, I am being quiet because school is back on for me, so that's 3 hours of homework, I have a social life, have a load of athletics on atm and I'm in about 7 games here atm, one which is in d1 and has about 150 pages despite not being up a week. So yeah.

[T S O]

Regarding TSO: Inactivity isn't a scum tell, but when you have been in the thread, you've not really been expanding on your reads, at all. You could have been doing so and that's a fact because you're in the thread. Your play style this game has not really been helpful to Town. I've tried to share my reads and thoughts when I can, in the hopes I can advance other people's reads and thoughts and further look in to something. You have had tons of opportunities to expand on them but you haven't done so really.

I can understand if you have real life stuff going on and if you're playing a lot of other games, but it seems like you're putting this game as your lowest priority between your other games. I don't know if that's actually the case, but it seems that way. It feels like you don't even want to bother scumhunting or helping Town and I don't like the Vibe that gives off. You're posting, but just enough that you look active and like you're contributing. I feel like myself and a lot of other people have gone quite in to depth with their posts/reads and tried to help. I don't really see that with you.

is probably fair enough, I'll admit my play this game hasn't been up to usual scratch.

I just want you guys to forget about me for one minute, and actually consider the case on Amrun. Please.

[T S O]

What posts of hers have given you "good vibes?"

[T S O]

Watch Poppedeye go from "read and post intent, it's all good" to "IF YOUUUU SUSPECT TSO PLACE VOTES ASAP! YES, ASAP!" What a scum-driven wagon.

Amrun, Popped, Henderson. Scum within it.

[T S O]

I'd prefer not to claim yet.

Grimgroove, why not vote Amrun then?

[T S O]

181

I also thought this post had a nice insight in to the situation at that time.

81

Like I said, I see and understand your POV, but don't feel the same.

Post #181 looks good

because it's fucking game theory.

It has no relation to Amrun's alignment and I'm surprised you think it does.

Post #81 is utter shit. Did you read it through? Let me paraphrase it for you.

"Grim is Town. His reasoning is still wrong and I disagree with it, but despite being wrong, he's really Town."

I'm not going to waste time explaining why that's wrong. This does not come from a Town mentality.

"PoppedEye might have made the summary to look Town. You never know. HOWEVER, I think it was made to combat hypocrisy. PoppedEye still seems off."

Do you see how Amrun sets up multiple exits in this post? She gives no definitive opinions so she can bend with popular opinion. Making a summary to combat hypocrisy? That doesn't work! Summaries have no relation to hypocrisy! Can't you guys see this?

Then Amrun goes off and attacks Flammus which even Grim has admitted comes out clearly on Flammus' side.

Amrun's posts require a certain ..."way of looking" in order to understand. Underneath them, there is no Town mentality or motivation. They are all backseat. Every one of them. Click the ISO and be amazed.

[T S O]

Oh Gravity, don't pace my reality, btw.

[T S O]

I will do this for you, I will drop you as a suspect momentarily and consider the case on Amrun:

My case is that you don't take enough strong stances, if any.

Ok, there's your case. That's what you're basing your read of Amrun on. I would also like to point out that Grimgroove already tried this "no strong stance" angle in post 213. Amrun responded in 218 and Grim either accepted the answer or hasn't rebutted yet.

Here is just a small sampling of Amrun asking a question in an attempt to gain better reads:

CPl, what are your thoughts on the reasons behind the gravity wagon?

What's your conclusion about popped eye?

Fegeilein, is wifom a scum tell? Why or why not?

What kind of response would you expect from scum? From town?

Why is CPL leaning scum? Is that your only scumread?

An ISO of Amrun will give you plenty more examples of her active scumhunting. And if that isn't strong enough for you, she took the front seat when suspecting Flammus of being scum and stuck to her guns long enough for others to find tells that point to his scumminess as well.
So after a review of all the information available, I still believe Amrun is town.

Okay, let's clarify this again. My case on Amrun is that she never ever makes hard stances and constantly gives herself out routes. Let's look at the posts you quoted.

#27: asks Henderson opinion on the wagon.

Gives no opinion.

#40: asks the conclusion about PoppedEye.

Gives no opinion.

#117: asks Fegelein is WIFOM a scumtell, and why/why not.

Gives no opinion.

#177: asks why Henderson is scum.

Gives no opinion.

Do you guys see where I'm coming from yet?

[T S O]

WOW

GUYS LOOK THAT FUCKING CHAINSAW AND WHITE KNIGHT COMBINED

HE HAS LITERALLY FUCKING ANSWERED EVERYTHING FOR AMRUN.

I GIVE UP IF YOU GUYS CAN'T SEE THAT.

[T S O]

...fine. VT.

GRIMGROOVE, DO NOT HAMMER. UNTIL A) I FEEL I'VE MANAGED TO CONVINCE TOWN AMRUN IS SCUM AND B) NS IS CAUGHT UP.

NS, I'm at L-1. No hammers.

[T S O]

What part of "game theory" do you find trustworthy? Is it the fact that you can quote it ad verbatim without thought, or is it that it doesn't require any opinion or mindset, so it's completely unindicative of alignment? Really?

[T S O]

I've made the case on Amrun. You guys don't want to fucking believe it. Amrun literally died once I put any heat on her. What have her last few posts been? "OMG, real life has coincided with me coming under pressure!" So I can't even argue back and forth. Amrun does need a defender though, so her scumbuddy PoppedEye does it for her.

[T S O]

So, I still think TSO looks the scummiest out of anyone so far but I'm interested to hear Nobody Special's thoughts. Only major read TSO has really given is on Amrun and whilst he's displaying a convincing argument. It's just not something I can get behind. This is not just because I think he's scum either, it's just I'm really not feeling and seeing what he is, at all. From my perspective, it seems like a last ditch effort to deflect attention on to somebody else but himself imo. You only started really starting getting involved recently, before that it was just minor thoughts and reads with no explanation from you.

Whilst I can completely see what TSO is saying, I don't think Amrun is scum and I have a good gut feeling about her being Town. I have throughout, I obviously saw those posts differently to you then TSO, as they gave me a good vibe, not the opposite. You can't really decipher much from TSO's claim as it's just 'VT' and that's it. Wouldn't be very hard to lie about that as scum. I must say that Poppedeye's defense did seem a little over-defensive of Amrun but Poppedeye has been the same throughout, he's been actively involved throughout and looked like he's been trying to scum hunt. Poppedeye has been a lot like me this game. If he feels strongly about something, he will defend it, he obviously feels strongly about Amrun being Town, so why wouldn't he defend her? Especially if Amrun isn't around and is busy.

I think TSO is the scummiest, his case is convincing, I don't buy his case, his claim is bullshit, PoppedEye white knighting Amrun is perfectly okay.

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS, GRIM?

If I was scum, I would at least claim a PR to try to draw some Tonw PR's out for my scumbuddy. There's a 25% chance that you can successfully claim in Matrix6 and I cannot comprehend why you're somehow calling my claim bullshit when 9 times out of 10 SCUM CLAIM A PR SO THE REAL PR WILL CLAIM AND DIE THE NEXT NIGHT.

[T S O]

It's not so much a matter of Amrun's leanings, rather that it suddenly become a huge deal right at deadline when we should be talking about a TSO lynch. I guess what I don't understand is why we aren't moving to lynch at this point. The town seems to be in agreement here.

LET'S PUSH THE LYNCH AS HARD AS I CAN! MY SCUMBUDDY IS COMING UNDER HEAT! LET'S CUT OFF DISCUSSION ASAP! LET'S NOT LET NS CATCH UP! HAMMER HIM!

This is so fucking scum!

PEDIT: GRIM/GRAVITY SEEM THE SAME, OKAY?

[T S O]

Grimgroove: I was looking it like TSO was feeling pressured and began tunneling Amrun to try and shift focus off him. Amrun mentioned being out all weekend and Monday, which meant (had we not received the extension) there was the possibility of Amrun not posting in time before deadline. I perceived TSO's move as being a stall tactic to run the clock out.

So who else besides TSO and Grimgroove suspects Amrun of being scum? IF this needs to be addressed, let's get to it. I would love to see some argument here other than repeating that she's "backseating" and/or playing a guarded game. TSO (and earlier Fegelein) has played a fairly guarded game so far, too.

LOOK AT THIS REPLY.

POPPEDEYE'S WHOLE ARGUMENT IS THAT IF I'VE DONE SOMETHING AND AMRUN HAS DONE IT TOO, AMRUN CAN'T BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR IT. NO SCUMSLIPS, NO SCUM MENTALITY, NOTHING.

[T S O]

Hi.
So I'm not sure if Popped is just trying to defend his passionate townread, or he's trying to defend his scumbuddy.
I could see newbscum doing the the latter. If he's read other games, he'd know scum like to distance each other. Maybe he's using that to his advantage? IDK, total WIFOM in my case.

Flammus, defending a townread is one thing.
Answering a question put to said townread zealously, then accusing the accuser of being scum after they put pressure on the townread, is quite another.
It's time to put your vote where your mouth is. We have less than a day until deadline. If you feel Amrun and/or PoppedEye is scum, vote.

[T S O]

Of PoppedEye - Gravity - Amrun, which is least likely to be scum in your eyes?

Gravity, definitely. He's not scum, just mixed up.

[T S O]

Oh but it is, Henderson. It's a classic newbie chainsaw with no subtlety whatsoever.

Quoting from the official MafiaWiki "chainsaw defence" page:

"The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers.

The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally."

[T S O]

Amrun needs a scum read, you see. A lynch has to be pushed in oder. In this case, what Amrun has tried to orchestrate is: TSO ynched today, someone like Grim dies tonight, Flammus is lynched tomorrow, someone like tynn dies that night and voi-fucking-la,

we're in LYLO.

That's exactly how it works.

Do you really think that 1 Town read and 2 scumreads a strong stance make? There's just enough within those to push two mislynches.

[T S O]

That's all I ask. I'm pretty sure if you look at her posts in an unbiased light, you'll see the truth.

[T S O]

Nobody Special should not be lynched today. He's a compromise lynch and he'll flip Town because I can read Fegelein like a book and he was Town and so is NS. Get on PoppedEye.

[T S O]

As confident as I am on anyone in this game, with the possible exception of Amrun.

NS lurks as Town and as scum. His posting looks Town though.

[T S O]

Fuck it I had a big post made out to PoppedEye and now it's ALL GONE

[T S O]

TSO every time you start rampaging you lose more credibility with me.

Why did you say this (emphasis mine):

What part of "game theory" do you find trustworthy? Is it the fact that you can

quote

it ad verbatim without thought, or is it that it doesn't require any opinion or mindset, so it's completely unindicative of alignment? Really?

And then a day later say this (emphasis mine):

Oh but it is, Henderson. It's a classic newbie chainsaw with no subtlety whatsoever.

Quoting

from the official MafiaWiki "chainsaw defence" page:

"The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers.

The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally."

This is blatantly hypocritical of you.

PoppedEye has resorted to discrediting me instead of addressing my arguments. Here he produces a completely bullshit argument which has no basis in logic. I've said the whole game that quoting game theory is not a towntell and should never be taken as such. I then quote from the Wiki to explain what a chainsaw defence is. PoppedEye twists this around and calls me a hypocrite when the two situations are completely different.

Gravity, this wall doesn't give us any new info. By now you should be going on more than just gut feeling. Read, analyze, and make a solid claim you're not going to back down from easily.

Amrun's posts you point out don't show anything other than she has been actively scumhunting.

Ending your analysis with "look at how much I've typed up there and I didn't expect to type that much" doesn't strengthen your argument.

Where does the bolded come out of? PoppedEye is either a) completely ignoring the case or b) not reading because he knows Amrun is scum.[/quote]

give me until tomorrow, and I'll have a case on PoppedEye.

PEdit: Henderson. he

answered a question for Amrun and defended it like it was addressed to him.

His whole case of defending Amrun is "NO U DID DAT TOO!" and his hardcore defence is completely out of place.

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mmmmmmmmghhhhhhhhhhh

that angers me.

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Gravity was the undoubted MVP of the game.

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Zaicon pls.

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I was so so off with my reads this game =_=

I felt really bad then because my case allowed piggybacking, culminating in Amrun's lynch. :c