Song Contest U-Pick - GAME OVER

[bazinga]

When I say that we set up his lynch, I mean that we took advantage of the way that Pasch's playstyle is completely detrimental to town to get him lynched. His "come at me bro" attitude, combined with incessant whining every time someone accused him of being scum...that's all on him. Pasch went around saying that the town was stupid not for seeing him as town when he's arguing from a standpoint of knowing his own alignment. That kind of self-righteous indignation is not at all helpful to town play, and I capitalized the hell out of it to take the win. If Pasch or Generic had been willing to reevaluate their own behavior and actually act in a manner that could benefit the town, I'd have been stuck treading in deep water and we wouldn't have been able to manipulate the town like we did. They were as much part of the problem as anyone else.

I think the

problem

was that scum was on the ball and town wasn't. are you going to argue this?

All things considered, I actually think morph played a better town game than anyone else (excepting perhaps the masons) who lived past the claimgate fiasco (which culminated in T-Bone's lynch and Nachomollie's death). I worked my ass off specifically because morph was in the game...if not for morph and the masons, we'd have steamrolled even after dropping two of our own to back-to-back lynches. No one else who was left in the game mattered to us except those 3, really. notsci, myko, Empking, DV, pasch, and Generic were not putting forth the strength of presence or logic to have been a threat to us, Formerfish and Garruk were handled once we survived D2 with SpyreX and his subsequent doc claim, and Generic/Pasch were also easily used to distract the town from actually being able to effectively hunt scum. Essentially, everything I did after Day 4 was for the benefit of a very small group of town players who held all the meaningful power when it came to getting town momentum in the proper direction.

so how do you think town could have played better? cos I am really interested.

That's categorically untrue. Town players have a duty to act in the town's best interests as much as possible. Getting mislynched for not doing so is as much (if not more) on the shoulders of the person who got lynched as those who voted them.

/disagree

and it is site meta I am trying to accept.

[pirate mollie]

also pecan totally threw a conftown game in favour of this 1.

if people wonder why sometimes I get upset that is it

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I was following the game too but very perfunctorily. I think it is natural for scum to side with the people they manipulated at endgame because no scum wants to say at endgame (Ha, look at how well we fooled you!) because that sort of meta will cause them to be suspected even more in future games and given less of a benefit of the doubt. They would much rather blame it on the players they got lynched. I still think saying that it was Pasch's fault that town lost is a bit of a stretch. This is coming from a mostly uninformed perspective and I haven't verified the truth of Pasch's statements that he "opposed" town wagons and pushed scum. It looked from his votes that his scumhunting was average at best and he did defend Spyrex. But if what he says is true (his implication that he called out all the scum and town didn't listen to him), then everyone is at fault for not re-evaluating although I actually doubt the truth of the statement and I am not sure where exactly Pasch seemingly played so well. Point is, I think everyone (inluding Pasch) share the blame equally for the town loss and the scum played well. I felt Spyrex was scummy while reading the thread but wasn't sure about anything or anyone else.

[Paschendale]

I played about average, but this game continued a long trend where most people seem to simply suck at reading me, and I'm wrongly run up quite often. People don't like my style. Big games like this one are a lot less fun than smaller (12-13 player) games. Everything is way too chaotic in the beginning.

It's weird how badly MoS wants to defend this, though. Town mislynched and lost. It happens. Why do you want to make this personal?

[Natirasha]

Also also, I maintain my ability to read Generic with 100% accuracy.

I KNOW YOU ARENT READING THIS BRO BUT I'M GONNA THROW IT IN YOUR FACE ACROSS THE POND SOMETIME

[Nachomamma8]

NATIRASHA I READ YOU RIGHT

[penguin_alien]

Thanks for the game, Matias and quadz08!

Nice play, scum team. Really wouldn't have gotten you at all, MoS.

Odd play in places--even after reading the whole game I have no idea why the lovers weren't policy lynched before LyLo. I mean, I get that scum was working to avoid that, but just hard to fathom. But then it's different being in the middle of it, I know.

[Natirasha]

NATIRASHA I READ YOU RIGHT

Yeah, believe it or not, all the people that played with me before read me right.

Except notscience, but he never does.

[Mastermind of Sin]

so how do you think town could have played better? cos I am really interested.

- I am shocked that I got away with not only faking a PR, but also pretending to BREAK it on Day 2 and then completely stopping it altogether on Day 5 or so. I should have been called on that, and the person who came the closest to making a deal out of it was my own scumbuddy (pecan, I think).
- Porkens should have been lynched way before he was. Like, I know I was bussing him and I was also actively trying to bus him in a way that drew out his lynch as long as possible, but I don't think he should have made it past D2 tbh.
- Lovers should not have lived as long as they did. I'd have lynched the shit out of SpyreX after claimgate. I mean, really? A doc/lover combo role in a game where every other role is very basic? Not to mention the balance of doc/doc/bp/rb/watcher/cop is incredibly strong even with the lover as a weakness.
- Pecan's cop claim shouldn't have stood as long as it did. Honestly, that was a gambit we made after morph's botched BP claim. When they claimed X-shot BP that *knew* they'd been hit, we knew that either there was a second killer out there (unlikely) or they were lying. We also knew that based on our setup information, X-shot really meant 1-shot (or morph was lying about their role altogether in some sort of town gambit to save SpyreX from a bad lynch). So we managed to get the 1-shot part into the fakeclaim before morph claimed it for their role, which lent it some credence. I still don't think the claim should have been allowed to stand, though.
- Town apathy and compromise lynches really hurt them this game. I feel like I, as scum, fought the hardest to avoid compromise lynches, and that's a bad sign.
- The fact that I was able to rail against compromise lynches and then repeatedly jump off my top suspect for a compromise lynch should never have been allowed. I lynched both EPM and myko as compromise lynches WHILE my top suspects were voting them both times. I have no idea how I got away with that.

Also, fuck site meta. Bad town play is still bad town play, and it always will be. I'm not going to compromise that just because people refuse to learn better game strategy.

I was following the game too but very perfunctorily. I think it is natural for scum to side with the people they manipulated at endgame because no scum wants to say at endgame (Ha, look at how well we fooled you!) because that sort of meta will cause them to be suspected even more in future games and given less of a benefit of the doubt. They would much rather blame it on the players they got lynched. I still think saying that it was Pasch's fault that town lost is a bit of a stretch. This is coming from a mostly uninformed perspective and I haven't verified the truth of Pasch's statements that he "opposed" town wagons and pushed scum. It looked from his votes that his scumhunting was average at best and he did defend Spyrex. But if what he says is true (his implication that he called out all the scum and town didn't listen to him), then everyone is at fault for not re-evaluating although I actually doubt the truth of the statement and I am not sure where exactly Pasch seemingly played so well. Point is, I think everyone (inluding Pasch) share the blame equally for the town loss and the scum played well. I felt Spyrex was scummy while reading the thread but wasn't sure about anything or anyone else.

I don't think Pasch is responsible for losing the game at all. I wouldn't blame anyone for the loss, and I think it's equally shared between poor town play and scum capitalizing on any advantages we could create. I do, however, believe that Pasch's playstyle directly contributed to his own lynch (which by chance happened to end the game, but that was not the point I was making), and I think his comments at the end of that day simply refused to recognize that. Additionally, randomly saying people are scum and actually making a case to argue for them to be scum are two VERY different things. Pasch did way more of the former than the latter, and it was a strong point that I used against him in trying to get him lynched.

Also, I'm not sure who you think I'm "siding" with. I've already readily called out where I think the town could have improved, and I've made specific comments about morph's play (because I think they're the kind of players who will take constructive feedback in stride and use it to improve their game).

I played about average, but this game continued a long trend where most people seem to simply suck at reading me, and I'm wrongly run up quite often. People don't like my style. Big games like this one are a lot less fun than smaller (12-13 player) games. Everything is way too chaotic in the beginning.

It's weird how badly MoS wants to defend this, though. Town mislynched and lost. It happens. Why do you want to make this personal?

I made one comment in response to your comments before you were lynched (which I obviously couldn't respond to candidly because the game wasn't over yet), and a bunch of people (some of which didn't even play in this game) jumped out to defend you and question my statement. Everything after that has just been fallout. So no, it's not personal, I just think you need to reevaluate how to use your playstyle in a way that actually benefits the town rather than hurting it.

Nice play, scum team. Really wouldn't have gotten you at all, MoS.

<3.

[notscience]

I agree regarding site meta (and I know this is the pot calling the kettle black).

Town loses more games than scum wins is what I've seen.

[BROseidon]

That's categorically untrue. Town players have

a duty to act in the town's best interests as much as possible. Getting mislynched for not doing so

is as much (if not more) on the shoulders of the person who got lynched as those who voted them.

Resisting urge to be a dick...

People don't get mislynched for not acting in town's best interests. "Town's best interest" is already a nebulous concept that we could spend a lot of time discussing, but it's ultimately a moot point because if you fill a town with players with 10/10 scumhunting 1/10 "looking town," they'll still win every time, whereas a town full of 1/10 scumhunting 10/10 looking town will win by RNG.

If you approach the game with an attitude of "oh, I mislynched him. He shouldn't have been so scummy," you're gonna be a shit player forever because you aren't taking it on yourself to figure out how to actually catch scum. Which is your job. You can't count on other people to do that for you.

[Natirasha]

While I would put the onus of Pasch's lynch more on him than the town, I would say that most other lynches this game were on town(myko, epm, hiraki). The other main offender was my lynch--which was my fault, although I maintain my position that I don't think formerfish was interested in being convinced.

[morph the cat]

Yeah there were several bad compromise lynches.

I have some takeaways to work on. Most of them relate to early reads. I felt under a lot of pressure about my first reads list after replacing in, and I think it was an odd combo of not owning some of them and being overly attached to others that led to a whole string of bad decisions as the game progressed.

Thanks Matias and Quadz! The game flavor was a lot of fun.

[morph the cat]

Oh wait. I see what you're saying.

Yeah. I doubt Garruk pulled off a successful block picking from 19 players on night 1.

If he did I'll apologize and factor it into future games

.

this btw is a thing

[notscience]

Lmfao

That's great

I totally forgot about htat

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's categorically untrue. Town players have

a duty to act in the town's best interests as much as possible. Getting mislynched for not doing so

is as much (if not more) on the shoulders of the person who got lynched as those who voted them.

Resisting urge to be a dick...

People don't get mislynched for not acting in town's best interests. "Town's best interest" is already a nebulous concept that we could spend a lot of time discussing, but it's ultimately a moot point because if you fill a town with players with 10/10 scumhunting 1/10 "looking town," they'll still win every time, whereas a town full of 1/10 scumhunting 10/10 looking town will win by RNG.

If you approach the game with an attitude of "oh, I mislynched him. He shouldn't have been so scummy," you're gonna be a shit player forever because you aren't taking it on yourself to figure out how to actually catch scum. Which is your job. You can't count on other people to do that for you.

I don't think you've been around here long enough to give me a lecture about what it takes to be a good player.

Seriously, though, I'm saying this as someone who has been where Pasch has been. I understand EXACTLY what's wrong about what he's doing, because that used to be me. There is a very real reason I earned my "Cassandra Complex" title...

While I would put the onus of Pasch's lynch more on him than the town, I would say that most other lynches this game were on town(myko, epm, hiraki). The other main offender was my lynch--which was my fault, although I maintain my position that I don't think formerfish was interested in being convinced.

Yea, that and I worked REALLY hard to discredit you all game...as your RB counterpart, I felt it was my solemn duty to see you lynched for my sins at some point.

[BROseidon]

I think you're conflating being at fault for getting lynched and the ability to carry games.

[BROseidon]

Conflating the concepts involved, at least.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, what I'm saying is that there is a point where you have to stop blaming everyone else for not just going along with what you're saying and start looking at why nobody gives any credence to what you're saying. In this case it was directly correlated to why Pasch got lynched.

Why do you care so much, anyway?

[BROseidon]

Something that annoys me tremendously, because people use the "well, x shouldn't have acted so scummy" as a way to hand wave their mistakes in reads.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You realize I was scum, right? ..and that none of the town players have said anything like that?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I don't think Pasch is responsible for losing the game at all. I wouldn't blame anyone for the loss, and I think it's equally shared between poor town play and scum capitalizing on any advantages we could create. I do, however, believe that Pasch's playstyle directly contributed to his own lynch (which by chance happened to end the game, but that was not the point I was making), and I think his comments at the end of that day simply refused to recognize that. Additionally, randomly saying people are scum and actually making a case to argue for them to be scum are two VERY different things. Pasch did way more of the former than the latter, and it was a strong point that I used against him in trying to get him lynched.

Also, I'm not sure who you think I'm "siding" with. I've already readily called out where I think the town could have improved, and I've made specific comments about morph's play (because I think they're the kind of players who will take constructive feedback in stride and use it to improve their game).

I only skimmed the game so I'll take it as a fact that Pasch didn't make a case. I am pretty certain though that his reads weren't random but based on what he saw in the thread. Not making cases isn't scummy. While I prefer reasoning to be provided with a read, that's mostly my playstyle preference and there are players who never provide reasoning for their reads and are positional and I've played with several of those types of players before. Not making a case isn't scummy.

I also completely agree with BRO's point of "

If you approach the game with an attitude of "oh, I mislynched him. He shouldn't have been so scummy," you're gonna be a shit player forever because you aren't taking it on yourself to figure out how to actually catch scum.

"

If you voted town over scum, you made a mistake with your reads that need to be fixed. Sometimes players lurk in the game and don't put in the time or effort needed but I don't believe that was the case with Pasch. I think he sincerely gave it his best shot, argued against town wagons and tried to get scum lynched (according to what he said at endgame). He got lynched because a lot of players had incorrect reads. From what I gathered, they also apparently didn't listen to him or try to engage him on his reads. The solution is to figure out where they went wrong and try to be better scumhunters in the future.

You claim that Pasch's playstyle may have contributed to his lynch. That's exactly the problem I have here. A player's playstyle

shouldn't

contribute to their lynch as it isn't alignment relevant. The solution is not to blame Pasch's playstyle but for town players to understand the difference in his town and scum play and figure out what are playstyle based tells and what are alignment based behaviors.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not claiming that not making a case is inherently scummy. I'm saying that it helps get people lynched. Paschendale didn't get lynched because a lot of players had incorrect reads, he got lynched because I used his playstyle against him and he didn't do anything to stop it. The other players were manipulated, but you can't blame them for wanting to be rid of him.

I was scum, so I knew he was town the whole time. I'm not sure exactly what "reads" you think I need to fix.

Meta is bullshit, malleable, and just as easy to manipulate as anything else. Only a very strong pattern bears any true weight in deciding a person's alignment, and even then it's very minimal and outweighed by most anything else that actually happens in the game.

Also, for the record, plenty of people tried to engage Paschendale on his reads. Heck, the fact that he had nothing of substance to say about his reads was a primary factor in the case I built against him when I got him mislynched.

For someone who wasn't in the game and only "skimmed" it, you have an awful lot of opinions about what everyone but Pasch did wrong.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am not talking about your reads in this game. I am voicing my opinion on the mentality that some players have that if you lynch someone and flip town, to blame the player in question and say that they were "scummy" as opposed to acknowledge that their read was wrong. In this specific case, I don't agree with your opinion of Pasch at endgame where you addressed him about not venting to the town. Why shouldn't the other players be blamed for wanting to "get rid" of someone who turned out to be town? A town player is supposed to assess whether the person they are lynching is town or scum before voting them and if they voted town, too bad, their read was wrong, and they should try and figure out how to improve their reads and better differentiate town and scum behaviors. Pasch absolutely got lynched because the people that voted him read him incorrectly as scum when he was town. I don't follow why you denying it. Yes, they got manipulated. That's the whole point. They allowed themselves to be manipulated and didn't probe deep enough to figure out his alignment which is why Pasch was angry at them.

You can

attempt

to manipulate your meta but a good scumhunter will be able to figure it out regardless. If you haven't been able to read players off of meta accurately, then you are doing it wrong.

I'll take your word that plenty of people engaged him so that's a point in their favor. Your "case" was obviously a fake one considering you were scum. My point is that a good scumhunter wouldn't fall for a fabricated case and sheep it. Scum can make cases too. I don't have a lot of individual opinions on the players. I just disagree with the general principle that the player who got lynched is to blame for their lynch especially if they put in the time and effort into the game and specifically your implication that Pasch blaming the town for lynching him was somehow "wrong" or unacceptable from his viewpoint.

[pirate mollie]

- I am shocked that I got away with not only faking a PR, but also pretending to BREAK it on Day 2 and then completely stopping it altogether on Day 5 or so. I should have been called on that, and the person who came the closest to making a deal out of it was my own scumbuddy (pecan, I think).

I called you out on it.

- Porkens should have been lynched way before he was. Like, I know I was bussing him and I was also actively trying to bus him in a way that drew out his lynch as long as possible, but I don't think he should have made it past D2 tbh.

we tried to help you bus porkens.

- Lovers should not have lived as long as they did. I'd have lynched the shit out of SpyreX after claimgate. I mean, really? A doc/lover combo role in a game where every other role is very basic? Not to mention the balance of doc/doc/bp/rb/watcher/cop is incredibly strong even with the lover as a weakness.
- Pecan's cop claim shouldn't have stood as long as it did. Honestly, that was a gambit we made after morph's botched BP claim. When they claimed X-shot BP that *knew* they'd been hit, we knew that either there was a second killer out there (unlikely) or they were lying. We also knew that based on our setup information, X-shot really meant 1-shot (or morph was lying about their role altogether in some sort of town gambit to save SpyreX from a bad lynch). So we managed to get the 1-shot part into the fakeclaim before morph claimed it for their role, which lent it some credence. I still don't think the claim should have been allowed to stand, though.

I don't think it should have been allowed to stand either especially his weird reaction to majiffy's softclaim. but most of that stuff came out after we were nked.

- Town apathy and compromise lynches really hurt them this game. I feel like I, as scum, fought the hardest to avoid compromise lynches, and that's a bad sign.
- The fact that I was able to rail against compromise lynches and then repeatedly jump off my top suspect for a compromise lynch should never have been allowed. I lynched both EPM and myko as compromise lynches WHILE my top suspects were voting them both times. I have no idea how I got away with that.

me neither

Also, fuck site meta. Bad town play is still bad town play, and it always will be. I'm not going to compromise that just because people refuse to learn better game strategy.

I don't understand why you are saying "fuck site meta" when it largely agrees with what you are saying and to me, that is the problem. mebbe I just have a different view on what bad town play is.

what has been hard to accept is that most people seem to prefer scum roles rather than town 1s and will throw town games in favour of scum 1s. <---- this is what pecan did with another game. yeah I am butthurt about it.

it seemed like it took forever to get nacho to see that you were scum but I kind of blame myself for that cos I kept getting distracted by shiny things. I don't think any1 is going to argue that scum played a kick-ass game and sincerely hope that you do not think that I am trying to take that away from you (lol, as if I could).

I don't get why people thought that you were town to me it looked like you were obviously bussing porkens and the way you ramped up activity after we were dead seemed obvious to me. I had hope when majiffy subbed in and we zeroed in on pecan right away but no1 was willing to go against morph's town read on them (except notty). or their town read on you.

I think you have a GREAT point about town apathy and compromise lynches. I know I checked out for a good bit until nacho gave me a head's up about tbone's claim and I was like wat. I think we only got him lynched cos you guys helped.

I thought pasch was pretty transparent with his thought processes. they might not have made sense to other people but they made sense to me. <--- this is why I addressed you in the first place. I felt it was unfair to blame pasch for his mislynch when scum had moved him in that position in the first place. it seems like the town you are applauding are the people who helped you win.