NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[pieguyn]

fucking hell

Sakura get in here and fucking unvote

[pieguyn]

I don't but I don't want even a slight risk of quickhammer

I at least wanna post my full case on Casso first

[Empire]

Day 9, Votecount 2

pieguyn (1)

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Sakura Hana

Not Voting (4)

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Casso the King of Seals, pieguyn, KoreanBBQ, goodmorning

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch! Deadline is on April 7th at 4:50 PM EST or in (expired on 2014-04-07 16:46:39).

Mod Notes

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goodmorning is V/LA until April 1st.

[KoreanBBQ]

Unvote
Vote: Pie

Why did you unvote me there?

[Sakura Hana]

Unvote
Vote: Pie

Why did you unvote me there?

I saw town motivation in your latests posts trying to figure out the game, since i think Casso's town pie's scum.

[pieguyn]

town: maraca, bro, geists, tammy, f16, pieguy, koreanbbq, generic, varsoon, cephrir
maybe also domo. and maybe also desp

{casso, mafiassk, brian skies, goodmorning, sakura, pitoli, roflcopter}
haven't really sorted this yet

Your to sort list is me and a bunch of low hanging fruit, which doesn't actually bode too well for you. I can see you making me the centerpiece of your Day 1 play if you feel like people wouldn't expect you to push on me as scum. I mean, I could see you scumreading me as town as well, but I find it strange that nothing in Maraca/BRO/pieguy/BBQ/generic/Varsoon/Cephrir stuck out to you as anything but town. This feels like the kind of scumpool you could come up with after an initial readthrough then toss it out because it's way too easy.

but the main reason i don't like them at the moment is that it feels a lot like they're coasting along and content with not creating any friction while doing not a lot of anything. kinda hypocritical coming from me given the start i've had this game, but meh, i'm still getting my bearings in this game.

You've seen me coast as town as scum. What makes this a more scummish coast as opposed to a townish coast?

i also don't like the way they're forming their reads. it doesn't look like what i'd expect from them as town. e.g. i'm not really sure what's going on with their read on me.

What other reads are formed in a strange way?

Vote: zMuffinMan

We don't have to tell Thor that I changed our vote.

If I'm not trying to sort you, what the hell are we doing now?

bullshit. you're not trying to sort me. you're talking at me, but nowhere in this back-and-forth have you tried to sort me. you're asking me shit questions and making snide comments here and there, but you're not trying to figure me out. you don't seem to actually care about my alignment, and it's sad that a majority of this player list is ignoring what you're doing.

you know your scum list is probably wrong and aren't really making efforts to refine it

part of that is because i'm only barely paying attention to this game (reading this game is just below banging my head against a wall on my to do list) and part of that is because i want flips before i start doubting my reads. i never assume my reads are accurate and always work on the assumption i could be wrong, but that doesn't mean i'm going to doubt my reads because i could be wrong. i don't even know why i have to explain this to you. it's fucking simple shit.

Your primary push is on me which you know isn't the type of thing that isn't going to go through anytime soon

*shrug* i don't like that barely anybody else is paying attention to how fucking scummy you're being, but i don't currently have the time to push it any harder than i'm already pushing it. i don't really give a shit; i'll push who i want to push.

you aren't really making an effort to sort out things any further than you have already even though the current position that you would be as a townie would be the type that's frustrating and generally not acceptable

i don't even know what this means, so i'm just going to assume it's drivel. i'm town, and if you're actually town here, you need to get over this dumb shit you're pushing on me

It's probably not worth the effort to respond to this.
Maybe later!

SAKURA QUIT BEING A FUCKING MORON

YOU DON'T FUCKING VOTE BEFORE DISCUSSION IS FINISHED WHEN THERE'S A CHANCE IT'S LYLO

[pieguyn]

AND THIS IS NOT THE FUCKING TIME TO FORM READS BASED EXCLUSIVELY ON WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE PAST GAME DAY

THIS IS THE TIME WHEN YOU NEED TO PULL TOGETHER EVIDENCE FROM THE ENTIRE GAME

[pieguyn]

I AM NOT FUCKING LOSING THIS GAME

I'M MAKING MY CASE ON CASSO AND YOU WILL SHEEP IT

[Sakura Hana]

You don't tell me what to do.

[pieguyn]

here's the tl;dr of it I'll pull up quotes later

1. zmuffin push lacked all the passion you usually find in town Nacho. looking back on it I agree with F-16's point that they weren't pushing each other hard enoguh at all
2. scum Nacho has an obvious pattern of trying to hit all the town Nacho notes at times when he thinks ppl are expecting them, and aside from that it's not really there. this is really obvious if you look at marketplace 3 and it's what he's doing here. I'll pull up evidence later but one really noticeable thing is he tends to try to replicate it whenever he makes a big breakthrough on a read on someone. if you wanna see the results of this, look at what marangal kept saying "why is casso super town every time

i start doubting my read on their slot

".
3. mindset on their read on me makes no sense. if Nacho was starting to follow Thor's read on me he should take more of an interest in Thor's points that I blatantly ignored. from what they gave, it feels like they planned to scumread me in advance and came up with the reason later. on top of that Thor's entire reason is smth he really shouldn't believe if he's town given it points to him above everything else
4. Nacho's push on me D8 is full of incorrect points and him putting words in my mouth. also, he only bothered to question the way I was POE'ing ppl when he got boxed in by it

[Sakura Hana]

but Nacho wanted to stop the lynch on the vig that GiF started.

[pieguyn]

Sakura how can you possibly think I am scum here

SERIOUSLY

HOW

THERE'S NO WAY

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE

YOUR POE IS WRONG BECAUSE CASSO IS SCUM AS SHIT AND YOU'RE NOT LOOKING AT THE BIG PICTURE

[pieguyn]

IT'S CALLED WHITEKNIGHTING

[Sakura Hana]

Unvote
Vote: Casso

[pieguyn]

is that a serious vote

please don't tell me you're trolling me

[Sakura Hana]

For now yes.

[pieguyn]

town: maraca, bro, geists, tammy, f16, pieguy, koreanbbq, generic, varsoon, cephrir
maybe also domo. and maybe also desp

{casso, mafiassk, brian skies, goodmorning, sakura, pitoli, roflcopter}
haven't really sorted this yet

Your to sort list is me and a bunch of low hanging fruit, which doesn't actually bode too well for you. I can see you making me the centerpiece of your Day 1 play if you feel like people wouldn't expect you to push on me as scum. I mean, I could see you scumreading me as town as well, but I find it strange that nothing in Maraca/BRO/pieguy/BBQ/generic/Varsoon/Cephrir stuck out to you as anything but town. This feels like the kind of scumpool you could come up with after an initial readthrough then toss it out because it's way too easy.

but the main reason i don't like them at the moment is that it feels a lot like they're coasting along and content with not creating any friction while doing not a lot of anything. kinda hypocritical coming from me given the start i've had this game, but meh, i'm still getting my bearings in this game.

You've seen me coast as town as scum. What makes this a more scummish coast as opposed to a townish coast?

i also don't like the way they're forming their reads. it doesn't look like what i'd expect from them as town. e.g. i'm not really sure what's going on with their read on me.

What other reads are formed in a strange way?

Vote: zMuffinMan

We don't have to tell Thor that I changed our vote.

Zmuffin is completely non-comittal and his iso yields absolutely no scum-hunting

*shrug*

if by non-committal, you mean i barely give a shit about this game, then you're right. but that's mostly because reading the back-and-forth bitching between some of the players in this game is sapping my motivation

as for lack of scum hunting, meh, your definition of scum hunting must be very different to mine

It shouldn't be too hard for you to believe that I would want to sort you early

mmhmm. and if you really were trying to sort me, i'd expect you to have, you know... actually done something to try and sort me. but you haven't done that and you're not doing that.

Meaning if you're wrong on me, your scumteam is... "a bunch of lurkers"?

the phrasing of this is really off. from your pov, if you're town, you shouldn't be talking about "if" i'm wrong on you. but i digress.

yeah, if you're town, then my scum list would contain primarily "lurkers". that's just how my reads developed this game. i imagine i could be wrong somewhere in my town reads, but i'm not all that concerned about it atm. that'll most likely sort itself out somewhere down the line.

besides, if you think it's strange to suspect primarily lurkers, why are you only calling me out for it? why not, say, maraca, whose most recent scum list is

all

low-content players? or any of the other people whose scum lists include primarily "lurkers"?

I never had a fully formed read on him, so I don't really see your problem with it

that

is

my problem with it, actually. it never looked fully-formed and you guys seemed so confident about him being scum (or at least thor did). but i'm assuming this means your read on him is now fully-formed. what is your pieguy read now?

Did I need to comment further on that?

it was never clear what your actual read on them is (was). so thor now thinks bbq is town?

If I'm not trying to sort you, what the hell are we doing now?

Your attack on my phrasing is something that makes me sad you brought it up in the first place. I'm attacking you because you know your scum list is probably wrong and aren't really making efforts to refine it. Your primary push is on me which you know isn't the type of thing that isn't going to go through anytime soon, and you aren't really making an effort to sort out things any further than you have already even though the current position that you would be as a townie would be the type that's frustrating and generally not acceptable. I'm not attacking Maraca because I have other reasons to call them town and they actually are making efforts to refine things.

Town, hence why I stopped attacking him. Thor seemed confident he was scum, maybe, but his case on him was distinctly of the "not really confident this is scum" type, so that shouldn't have confused you that much.

Yes, he does.

you're measuring my post count across christmas/new year's/a period of time when the site has been going down constantly for lengthy periods of time and calling it strange that i have less posts here than in another game. yeah...

I measured to the 26th. Site downtime hasn't affected anyone else incredibly significantly, so I didn't think that it affected you that horribly. I think the difference is still important even when considering holidays.

all you're doing is making tinfoil arguments about why i could be scum and you're using a recent game where i intentionally manipulated my meta specifically to look town as a basis for fueling this argument

saying that you're being lurky and apathetic because your scum games usually aren't lurky and apathetic isn't a tinfoil argument at all. the only reason i brought up the marketplace argument was to show that you were pretty aware of your own meta.

you're not actually trying to understand anything or trying to discern my alignment in any way in this game

What more am I supposed to do?

yeah, well i happen to have a very rare affliction that i'm pretty sure nobody else in this game suffers from, and i'm actually rather sensitive about it *sob* *sob*. the truth is... i'm australian

I post the same times you do a lot, and I'm not australian.

when you think i'm scum for that reason alone, it is the very definition of a tinfoil argument

My original reason for you not being town was lack of towniness, no blazing glory. The "hey, muffin manipulates his meta so it's not inconceivable that he's doing so here" is a reason for you not being town because apathy.

...

You hate the way I'm sorting you so much, but I don't see how I'm supposed to do better. For example, "figure out the reasons why you are lurking"? Am I supposed to track down your schedule, compare timestamps in Marketplace and FEA, then request site downtime and make an adjustment on calculations due to the holiday season? I don't believe the only acceptable answer is calling you town because apathy; it's a dumb reason to dismiss someone from being scum, just like you dismissing me because :effort: would be strange even though my play here already looks radically different from my play in Marketplace.

All I want to see is you caught up and doing things and posting good observations. I doubt this exchange will go anywhere because I know you're comfortable in back and forths as scum; I want to see what you're pushing and why and how hard you're pushing it, and I won't get those things from your posting until you step it up.

i'm calling your approach to reading me bullshit because you're not even thinking about it; you're not trying to assess things properly, you're just bullshitting your read on me.

You keep repeating this but you've never explained why you think this.

Why did you say you expected me to see that this wasn't your scumgame early? What have you done so far that you expect me to read as town?

wait, you know the site being down affected me a lot, so i dunno why you're feigning like you don't know that had something to do with it. i even complained about it frequently in our QT iirc

I'm sure it had something to do with lower activity, but I don't think the little bit of downtime would ruin your motivation completely.

the way you're approaching the read on me feels unnatural. you're looking at something, and suggesting i'm scum because because while this may be something that sometimes happens when i'm town, i could also being doing ithis as scum! tbh, i expected more of a reserved approach from you, sorta like the one ffery's been taking toward me

I originally approached you and attacked you because I didn't see any towniness in your early posts and I expected to see some towniness; I padded my case on you as a result, but the main reason for the push was to get you engaged and see if I could read you if pushing you. I'm suggesting you're scum because you haven't really given me a reason to read you as town so far and because I see the angle you're taking now as something you feel would be something people wouldn't expect out of town-Muffin. How is this unreasonable?

I am more likely to take a reserved approach as scum as opposed to town; I don't like having people I'm familiar with in null piles after a certain point.

this is a horrible question

Answer it anyways.

mm, that could be because you're scum

The quoted statement and the question I asked you are linked, you know.

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN (FURY OF FLING FROM STRONGEST TO WEAKEST):

Desperado - I liked Desperado's entrance because it was so solidly "I don't give a fuck, what's up guys". His early pushes felt more fluid and less loud and confident like his normal scum pushes. I didn't like his attack on Varsoon for "false dichotomies" because Varsoon does that as town as Desperado saw. I thought his push on Maraca was fine, and his push on Sakura was good (until recently when he continued pushing Sakura after the meltdown bit and didn't engage anyone on why opinions so radically changed). Geists scumread is also weird although it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Desperado-scum fakeread, and the "oh I'm not pushing you today even though I have you as a scumread because you're not getting lynched" bit is weird, considering he's made no attempt to sell anyone on any of his non-consensus scumreads. Not at all hitting the level I expect Desperado-town to hit.

Ser Arthur Dayne - Initial read on Tammy is kind of weird (Tammy is highly town unless she can emulate her usual town aggressiveness): SAD hasn't played with Tammy for a while, sure, but I'm fairly sure he played with her on Westeros longer than anyone else in the game, so the bit of paranoia that she could fake what she showed here seemed disingenuous. His push on pie is weird and not really representative of what pie was doing (and I don't like his backtrack when he goes from "pie is doing zero scumhunting" to "his scumreads are fake/he's tunneling"). Him pushing pie pretty strongly and going "meh, can't get a read on you" was strange but probably not alignment indicative, and his later pushes on Muffin/us where he votes us then doesn't comment on the vote at all both feel weird (I think I read something about him explaining the reasons he did this somewhere). I'm still weirded about by his defense of SSK on the basis of being not good information; I like that he was so honest about the associative tell thing (yeah, it was a lie all along), but I'm not really sure what he was supposed to defend himself with as scum and that honestly doesn't look so great when his initial reaction was to lie about it, which would be for SAD-town. His switch on SSK also seems like an odd position to take; he doesn't seem to be getting boxed in by POE and I don't follow his case on SSK today, so the newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic. I like his snark, and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he wouldn't kill Tammy because he joined this game to play for her, but it's not enough for a townread.

Muffin - My main concern with Muffin at this point is that there's nothing in his posts I can point to and strongly declare him town because of it. His attack on me is mostly a response to my attack on him, and has a few genuine-sounding notes that are pretty fakeable for Muffin-scum. He felt a lot more aggressive dismissing me for my read on him than he does now which could be an effect of scumMuffin running out of angles or townMuffin not feeling as strongly about things as he did before. I liked Muffin's question to geists about their townread on me (is it because of how he sorted you?) because a large component of ffery townread on me in Marketplace was my sorting her, and I like the stronger than consensus townread on BRO since it's Muffin shutting down a mislynch option when I'm guessing mislynch options are fairly sparse. In the end, I need more content and I need town leader Muffin over the Muffin that we see here.

Norlkaz (but mostly Brian Skies) - I am completely null on Llamarble, and I've sort of resigned myself to being null on him for a while. Brian Skies did not post enough in order to get any sort of solid read on; there were a couple good-sounding moments earlier in his ISO, but nothing I have any sort of faith in.

BRO - This game feels very, very different from the two games where we were scumbuddies. I agree with general statements that he hasn't dedicated as much time as in scum games to looking town, and the early push on ffery for not seeing what he expected her to seems like a nice early attack on a power player to early attack on me. A lot of his talk relies on other players and based on feelings in other games, and the majority of his pushes lack the low fruit strikes that seemed rampant in his other scumgames (for example, calling goodmorning town for town lurk early closed that option off early when it was something I expected BRO to go for as scum). Concerning bits are mostly based on BRO not hitting the "unfakeable factor" that a lot of players have seem to hit or come close to hitting, lacking something strong that I can point to and declare "yes, this is town", and having a good scumgame with a pretty impressive range. BRO would probably be a decent townread in a more normal game.

SSK read is a special case, not something to be dealt with today.

The post is alarming because the primary purpose seems to be showing us how much work Nacho is doing.
His descriptions are too detailed for a notes-to-self post but too mashed-together for a persuasive post.

Purposes of large masturbatory reads lists are for me to get as much work done as possible while I still have a laptop at my disposal, to explain some reads, to solidify positions enough where I can push with confidence. I'm fairly confident you've seen a "Nacho showing off how much work he's doing" post, and it usually comes with limitless quote stripes and is followed by coasting, coasting, and more coasting.

Vote: Desperado

I feel pretty confident in Desperado/SAD scum and probably scum in Muffin/SSK.

Similarities - Muffin lazy in both.
Differences are based mostly on context; in that game, he was replacing into a game with an absolutely massive Day 1, lots of loud obnoxious people floating around, town was already ridiculously town and the slot he replaced into was ridiculously town already. Here, he replaced in fairly early, there weren't so many obnoxious and loud people (just a bunch of loud people), and his slot was at a point where it needed to look town in order to narrow down options more. I will also note he got a hell of a lot more engaged a lot quicker in FEA (122 posts in 12 days there, 52 posts in 15 days here), which doesn't make sense because I can imagine this would be a game he would be more excited to get into.

This is what I dislike most in the recent casso muffin exchange. Casso is building pressure on muffin by comparing his meta to one of his town games, pointing out that as town he was very quick to get involved. Muffin argues this is due to xmas/site probems, and casso argues back that it doesn't seem to have effected anyone else. Well actually it did. Compare my d1 activity to today. The site problems and timing are absolutely the reason I was not thoroughly up to date on d1. Casso using this in a meta argument is pretty horrible. The two situations he's comparing are imo uncomparable, and both nacho and thor should know better. This I think is scum trying to build a mislynch.

My main point remains that he hasn't done anything townish and he has shown himself to get involved quicker in games where he's town. Muffin gives plenty of plausible excuses to why he's not engaged (site problems, Xmas, IRL, ingame noise), and I point out that this really hasn't affected anyone else as much as it has affected him. For example, despite site problems and timing fucking up your engagement with thread, you still have over 200 posts, have voiced many reads and paranoid thoughts and things like that. Muffins managed two reads lists and an exchange with me.

the posts where nacho pushes on zmuffin. first off, after this he lets up on the push a lot and doesn't really do much with it till D5 and even then Proph was the one who led the lynch. second, a lot of these angles are really weird (them posting at the same time despite zmuffin being in australia, not posting "enough" despite all the site downtime which is also smth I questioned him on earlier). also, Nacho knows zmuffin sometimes comes up with these shitty moonlogic reads out the ass and so the fact he's so concerned about defending himself from smth he knows is probably really stupid, and using it as an another argument AGAINST him, as opposed to an argument for him-town or null, is really off. it also lacks a lot of the town Nacho passion you usually see although that might just be me

I was almost positive there were some posts where he was arguing against other ppl's scumreads on zmuffin (which wouldn't make any sense and made me think he was doing it so he could get the most towncred from the lynch) but I couldn't find them. the only one I saw was him saying he wasn't optimistic about me catching zmuffin on a scumslip

also, despite all this pushing the only time he really pushed for a lynch on zmuffin was early D1 until he joined the wagon D5. his read on him in that readslist was also really waffly and seems like a read that could easily justify distancing without putting zmuffin in too much danger of a lynch

on the zmuffin end, afaik he's usually more aggressive than this but idk if it means anything

on top of all this, he misrepped my zmuffin read as being in a similar position to him where he stays unsure about it for a while when my zmuffin read was really the same type of POE I'm doing right now to him

[pieguyn]

I can't quote this bc thread is locked but compare that to his push on catboi at the end of this ISO
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

tone here is totally different and has a shitton more conviction. it also has more conviction than his push on SAD in this game iirc

[pieguyn]

also

vote: Casso
L-1

BBQ + Sakura team is absolutely impossible and if it's that I will literally flip a table over IRL and record it for you all to see. BBQ's posting after Sakura voted me felt like him stalling for a quickhammer but that's almost entirely gut

I'm also p sure of BBQ as a potential Casso partner bc of Casso lining up a Sakura lynch on D1. scum Nacho has a history of strongarming lynches on lynchbaits (KA in marketplace) and it felt like that's what he was doing to Sakura. both zmuffin and Casso also had BBQ as strong townreads. I still think it's more likely there's only 4 scum but if there is a partner it's BBQ

also from an outside POV I'm cleared as scum w/ Sakura bc we were both online earlier to quickhammer Casso. I'm p sure GIF was also online earlier so I should be cleared as scum w/ BBQ but I might be wrong on him being online

[pieguyn]

Because that's not what your initial response to the town case seemed like. And if that was the case, why aren't you telling me to get someone for you to sheep and instead are settling for the largest wagon?

Because I'm done sheeping you after Open 534.

^this is the post I brought up earlier. Sakura has a history of always sheeping Nacho D1 when she can't figure out where to go. however, recently she's stopped doing this bc Nacho has a pattern of being terribly wrong a lot recently

the thing with this is

Post Post #3012 (isolation #107) » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:52 am

O534 ended dec 22, just 1 day before that. if Sakura is scum this means that she preempted this new element for her townplay out the ass, and that it's held up in actual towngames, AND she chose to take this action as scum instead of smth she's done almost every time as town up till now. as town, it's way more believable

[pieguyn]

GIF is online

if he posts here with no hammer, BBQ is cleared from being scum w/ both Sakura and me. which means, assuming 2 scum, Casso is scum. plz post to confirm this

[KoreanBBQ]

VOTE: Casso

Flip table pls

[pieguyn]

..........................................

[pieguyn]

you better be trolling me

[pieguyn]

how

why




AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA