Nomination Phase/Fixed Deadlines

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
mith
mith
Godfather
User avatar
User avatar
mith
Godfather
Godfather
Posts: 9267
Joined: March 27, 2002
Location: McKinney, TX

Nomination Phase/Fixed Deadlines

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:12 am

Post by mith »

In Verbose Mafia 2, I tried a different voting system which I felt worked pretty well, and I'd like to discuss it a bit here.

The usual voting system just involves players voting for each other and taking as long as required until either a majority is reached (at which point day ends immediately) or day has gone on so long or discussion has stalled to the point that a deadline is enforced (often with a reduced number required for lynching).

There's nothing particularly special about this; the main reason we do it this way is by convention from the first couple games on the GL (with more rules later, such as bolding, unvoting, and so on, to make things easier for the Mod).

Now, I'm not advocating that we replace the "standard" with something new. However, I am always looking for ways to improve the game, and I certainly think there is potential for the nomination/fixed deadline method to do just that.

A few pros:

No more super-long or stalled days. Personally, I don't mind days lasting a month or more, because I like to argue and as long as anyone else is posting I'll have something to say. However, I don't think it's good for the game that this is standard in most of our games.

No more annoying deadline rules. Players will always know in advance when they need to get a majority by, and the nomination phase helps streamline the process, narrowing the field of potential lynches. If there are three candidates, and none of them can get a majority, I think a no lynch is a much more accurate picture of the town's feelings than a lynch with a quarter/third/whatever of the vote.

Particularly for games with a low number of information roles, this would help focus discussion. With three (or two, or four, or whatever) nominations, the players can be a bit more free with their suspicions, and then once the block is set, they focus on a few players to determine who is the
most
suspicious. I think this would help a lot in, for example, a vanilla game on day 1.

and cons:

Some days have more discussion than others; it's just natural. Occasionally players will be ready to lynch immediately; this could be taken care of by an "End Day" rule. On the other hand, sometimes players will have so much to discuss that with different time zones or players posting irregularly that they can't get it all in. While this is more realistic from a flavor standpoint (the sun isn't going to stand still because I'm not finished arguing with Antrax), and while this is often the players' fault, it's still not necessarily optimal, and extensions defeat the purpose to some degree.

Ties in nominations can be a problem, though again this is avoidable by the players.

Anyway, thoughts? Would you like to see more games run with this (or a similar) system? What changes would you make?
User avatar
Mr. Flay
Mr. Flay
Metatron
User avatar
User avatar
Mr. Flay
Metatron
Metatron
Posts: 24969
Joined: March 12, 2004
Location: Gormenghast

Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:48 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Caveat: I have not read Verbose Mafia yet.
Some days have more discussion than others; it's just natural. Occasionally players will be ready to lynch immediately; this could be taken care of by an "End Day" rule. On the other hand, sometimes players will have so much to discuss that with different time zones or players posting irregularly that they can't get it all in. While this is more realistic from a flavor standpoint (the sun isn't going to stand still because I'm not finished arguing with Antrax), and while this is often the players' fault, it's still not necessarily optimal, and extensions defeat the purpose to some degree.
I think this is the crux of the problem I would have with such a scheme. Fixed end-days are artificial; if your little town/club/group of frogs is having SUCH a heated discussion that they need to continue past sundown, I don't think they would just decide "well, the last sliver of sun is down, let's lynch Joe Bob instead of Mary Sue!". That's artificial and constitutes (in my mind) the mod interfering with the game for the sake of the game, when normally we advocate the mod being a Divine Clockmaker with as little interaction as possible. Maybe a mechanism allowing players to request an automatic 72-hour (or whatever) extension would alleviate some of this concern.

That being said, Norinel has a fixed-length Day/Night in Himalayan based on how many players there are left; we haven't run into it yet, but we've come close. I'm not sure how I'll feel if we ever are faced to make that decision like that.

Personally I use a posts/day minimum equal to the number of players alive; if the average falls below that for a few days, I threaten/set a deadline. It's worked pretty well and the second time I have to set it in a Day, it becomes firm.

I'd be concerned that a nomination phase may hamper scum's attempts to set up false bandwagons, but I can't put my finger on why, yet. (
::edit:: and obviously I'm wrong to some degree, given the outcome of Verbose
)
Retired as of October 2014.
User avatar
BabyJesus
BabyJesus
Not Helpful!
User avatar
User avatar
BabyJesus
Not Helpful!
Not Helpful!
Posts: 4544
Joined: February 24, 2005
Location: manger, wrapped in swaddling clothes

Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:34 am

Post by BabyJesus »

Set a doomsday clock...after a certain time, if a majority is not lynched, the number required to lynch decreases by one, and continue the countdown until someone IS lynched.
:coo:
Back On The List: Fritzler, Pooky
Solo Town winner of Payola Mafia.
Scum's Best Friend: Nightcow
User avatar
Seol
Seol
Logical Rampage
User avatar
User avatar
Seol
Logical Rampage
Logical Rampage
Posts: 1563
Joined: November 26, 2004
Location: In the wrong

Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:50 am

Post by Seol »

Mr. Flay wrote:I think this is the crux of the problem I would have with such a scheme. Fixed end-days are artificial; if your little town/club/group of frogs is having SUCH a heated discussion that they need to continue past sundown, I don't think they would just decide "well, the last sliver of sun is down, let's lynch Joe Bob instead of Mary Sue!". That's artificial and constitutes (in my mind) the mod interfering with the game for the sake of the game, when normally we advocate the mod being a Divine Clockmaker with as little interaction as possible. Maybe a mechanism allowing players to request an automatic 72-hour (or whatever) extension would alleviate some of this concern.
Well, I've been running games on a fixed day-length for a while now, and I think exactly the reverse - flavourfully, days should last a specific length of time, there comes a point where the day has ended. This takes care of the long/stalled days problem and the annoying deadline rules, and so far I've only had positive feedback about the system.

But automatic day deadlines aren't anything revolutionary - what we're talking about here are a further two fundamental changes, namely the two-step voting process (which does have some benefits, and increases the merits of vote analysis as there are, quite simply, more votes out there to analyse) and the minimum day length also being applied. Unlike the deadline rules, these
do
feel kind of artificial, but then they also have their merits and it's quite easy to justify flavourfully. It does, however, mean that sometimes you'll get, say, a cop come out with a guilty and then the game stalls for three days 'cos everybody's voted - but as you say, allowing an "End Day" vote (separate to the lynch vote) or a "day ends automatically on a two-thirds majority" could take care of that.

Talking about the merits of the system in Verbose Mafia is tricky just because the game was so over-designed - as well as unusual voting rules, everyone had posting restrictions and minimum posting requirements and the scum had unusual nightkill rules, meaning trying to appreciate the impact of one particular factor is almost impossible.

Certainly, it's worth considering as a "standard variant", giving it a few test runs and see how people like it. I'm wondering if it would work in a mini, because that'd allow a lot more games to turn over quickly to get feedback in on.
[i]The hungry maw of Twilight snaps, but shall not have its fill,
Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]
User avatar
Kelly Chen
Kelly Chen
Open-Minded
User avatar
User avatar
Kelly Chen
Open-Minded
Open-Minded
Posts: 2150
Joined: November 25, 2005
Location: in the party

Post Post #4 (ISO) » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:55 am

Post by Kelly Chen »

A nomination phase seems like a good way to assist the town during the day game, since it's something else scum have to maneuver around without becoming suspicious.

I don't like situations where the result of the day is inevitable, but the players have to wait for a specific deadline to hit. I'd like to stop the second phase as soon as there's a majority.

I also don't like reduced majority to lynch, because this enables more players to avoid responsibility for the outcome. If there are enough votes to get the result you want, there's no need to put your own vote there.
User avatar
MrBuddyLee
MrBuddyLee
Slightly better than 50-50
User avatar
User avatar
MrBuddyLee
Slightly better than 50-50
Slightly better than 50-50
Posts: 5219
Joined: March 2, 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Post Post #5 (ISO) » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:38 am

Post by MrBuddyLee »

In my limited experience, it seems that the best information about who to lynch comes from people's behavior in the third and fourth quarters of the day. If there was a nomination process, I would still want to reserve the right to ultimately vote for someone not amongst the three nominees.
dialing in mildly protown reads since 2006
User avatar
Thok
Thok
Disgrace to SKs everywhere
User avatar
User avatar
Thok
Disgrace to SKs everywhere
Disgrace to SKs everywhere
Posts: 7013
Joined: March 28, 2005

Post Post #6 (ISO) » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:51 am

Post by Thok »

One problem with the nomination process is that it places an unnatural break in the day. In Verbose we would spend 3 days discussing various suspicions, and then suddenly it would be the voting phase and everybody would reset their suspicions and would vote willy-nilly among the eligible set of candidates.

(I'm not complaining about it, since I did have the most nominations one day and was nowhere near getting lynched, but it seems that the requirements for being a good nominee to be lynched are not the same as the requirements for being a good lynch.)
I replaced into Chess Mafia for 6 months, and all I got was a win and this lousy sig.
User avatar
Yosarian2
Yosarian2
(shrug)
User avatar
User avatar
Yosarian2
(shrug)
(shrug)
Posts: 16394
Joined: March 28, 2005
Location: New Jersey

Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:08 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

I do have to say that in a standard game I like the "half to lynch at deadline" rule. It's one of the most tense and interesting moments of a game; a day can last a month, but now suddenly you have 6 hourse to figure out who to lynch, and the 5 of you who online are enough of a voting block to make a real choice. Or it's a 6 to 5 vote, with 5 votes to lynch at deadline, and all it takes is one sudden change of heart or unvote at the last second to change the lynchee. It's tense, it's exciting, it's a lot of fun in my opinion, and how people act in that situation can give you a better idea of what they really want then anything else could.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
User avatar
Norinel
Norinel
Not Voting (3)
User avatar
User avatar
Norinel
Not Voting (3)
Not Voting (3)
Posts: 1684
Joined: March 2, 2003
Location: My computer

Post Post #8 (ISO) » Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:30 pm

Post by Norinel »

Mr. Flay wrote:"well, the last sliver of sun is down, let's lynch Joe Bob instead of Mary Sue!"
[aside]With all this talk of how much the mod should participate in games, I'd automatically lynch anyone named Mary Sue[/aside]
That being said, Norinel has a fixed-length Day/Night in Himalayan based on how many players there are left; we haven't run into it yet, but we've come close. I'm not sure how I'll feel if we ever are faced to make that decision like that.
Remind me after the game; it's probably worth discussing more.

The one thing that makes me a little uneasy about fixed-length Days of any sort is that the way they make more dependency on when/how often people can get on, but that'll have an effect anyway.
User avatar
petroleumjelly
petroleumjelly
he/him/his
Thirteenthly, ...
User avatar
User avatar
petroleumjelly
he/him/his
Thirteenthly, ...
Thirteenthly, ...
Posts: 6219
Joined: November 27, 2005
Pronoun: he/him/his
Location: Tacoma, WA

Post Post #9 (ISO) » Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:42 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Hmm. I have a natural aversion to deadlines in general, although I must agree they keep interest in the game. I would support somewhat long deadlines (three weeks, for example), but I do not like deadlines where the day automatically ends
only
when the deadline is reached.

I think if there is enough votes for a lynch at
any
time, the "mob" is frenzy enough that they will lynch that person, regardless of whether it's 10:00 AM in the morning in the town, as opposed to when the clock strikes midnight. Mobs aren't going to good-naturedly going start listening once they've already got somebody hanging from the gallows. This is equivalent to mith's "End Day" rule: once a lynch or no-lynch is reached, the day is over, regardless of how long the day was.

I liked the mechanic of a nomination phase, and I would support more games using it (but not all): I think it is an interesting twist that increases the quality of play from all people participating. A nomination phase only seems to work, strangely enough, with a fixed deadline, though! Perhaps a week would be more sufficient, followed by a two week voting phase. An alternative to stop stalled days would be to take away the nomination phase once half the players are dead, since there are less people to worry about anyways.
"Logic? I call that flapdoodle."
User avatar
Coron
Coron
Shameless Plug
User avatar
User avatar
Coron
Shameless Plug
Shameless Plug
Posts: 5449
Joined: November 19, 2004

Post Post #10 (ISO) » Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:19 pm

Post by Coron »

I dislike the idea, I dislike any sort of hard deadline ever because with replacements and such often being nessisary it means that within 2 days of a deadline we might not have a person posting and it's unfortunate and we all cry.

Not to mention I am apposed to at any point in the day narrowing down the people you can try to get rid of. Often there is only 1 or 2 real canidates up for lynching and you see something during the voting and want to start voting a 3rd person and with this system it doesn't allow this.

I dislike.

Return to “Mafia Discussion”