Ethics: Codes

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Ethics: Codes

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:40 am

Post by Fiasco »

1. Is it OK to encode your role into your early posts? What about encoding the flavor of your role in a theme game? What about just using hints?

2. Is it OK for scum to use a code system to communicate during the day?

There was an earlier discussion here.

The reason why I think coded role claims are problematic is that, while
in theory
the scum could also encode a large selection of roles that they might later want to claim, this takes a lot of work, and in practice will not be done. This tactic robs scum of the ability to let their role claims depend on how the game unfolds. This is especially true of themed roles, just because there are so many more possibilities.

Likewise, letting scum use codes to communicate during the day gives an advantage to those willing to waste a lot of time setting up an elaborate code system. I don't like it when good play requires boring work that has little to do with the game itself.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:52 am

Post by EmpTyger »

1) Definitely not a problem.
A player can’t expect it to be fair for them to be able to blatantly behave one way as protown and another way as antitown. “This tactic” doesn’t “rob” the player; the player robs themself. If a player wants to encode to “prove” their innocence when protown, then they have to accept the limitation it places on them when antitown. If a player wants to have freer claims when antitown, they can’t rely on encoding to prove their claim when protown. Simple trade-off. A player who can’t encode their roles as antitown because it’s disadvantageous has no business always doing so for an advantage when protown. (In some ways this is equivalent to a player’s general claim strategy.)


2) Don’t think it’s a problem, although not completely sure.
First of all, devil’s advocate: why shouldn’t players who invest themselves more in a game have an advantage over those who don’t? Also, IRL, mafia are allowed to try to subtly signal each other; shouldn’t the mafia be allowed to try to coordinate in daytime online? Moreover, I wouldn’t say good play *requires* it. Besides, in any case, masons have the same ability.

On the other hand: what bothers me about invisiposting and the like is that they foist and unwanted burden onto players to go out of there way to check each post for the like. Codes, it could be argued, do the same thing. So while I don’t think there’s any problem on the encoders’ side (since it’s their choice whether to craft one), I could see an argument that it’s not fair to impose on the rest of the players the obligation to analyze each post for a code. There is a slippery-slope argument here, I think, and I think I need to think on it a little more.

There is also one potential oddity regarding codes:
Let’s say you’re mafia in a game with A and B. You have a sweet code you’ve used before, when you were mafia in a previous game with X. Only X knows about it. You set up the code, use it perfectly, things go swimmingly- but then X replaces a protown late game. Just like that, you are completely exposed.
(I think this situation is tangential, because it deals with the ethics of replacements more than of codes. In fact, I think I’m going to start a separate topic on this...)
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:07 am

Post by Fiasco »

EmpTyger wrote:If a player wants to encode to “prove” their innocence when protown, then they have to accept the limitation it places on them when antitown.
So you're saying people should play sub-optimally as town (by not encoding) to help themselves in future games where they are scum? Then we're getting into Type 2 Metagaming again.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:15 am

Post by mathcam »

I agree with EmpTyger, except for the "althought not completely sure" part. :)

The simple fact that anyone, regardless of role or motive, could encode any message they want, is sufficient enough to allow it as a viable strategy. As mafia, I could encode ten different posts, one with each potentital role claim, and all in different codes. When the time came for me to choose a role, I could just reveal that post and explain the code I used. Does this give me an advantage as scum? No, because a responsible townie can point out that my exact plan was a possibility.

As to EmpTyger's concern: Even given the above scenario, this doesn't imply that it's a townie's responsibility to search every post for codes. In fact, a clever enough coder could make it essentially impossible for the code to be discovered, meaning that even a brilliant code-detecting townie would be wasting his/her time searching for the code. What
is
the townie's responsibility is to not be foolishly blindsided by someone's claim that since they encoded their role early on, that this proves that they are who they claim to be.

In contrast, invisiposting should be prohibited from a practical viewpoint. It is very easy to detect, by highlighting, and is thus a tedious waste of everyone's time to check for it. Further, smart players wouldn't use if it were legal, since they know it could be discovered by anyone, and so we'd theoretically end up with the scenario that although no one would use the invisible text, all good players would be forced into constantly checking for it.

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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:23 am

Post by Fiasco »

mathcam wrote:As mafia, I could encode ten different posts, one with each potentital role claim, and all in different codes.
You could, but it doesn't sound at all like a fun thing to have to do every game. And if the town is smart enough to encourage such encodings, then you do have to encode all your possible claims ahead of time, which is impossible in many theme games. To clarify: I'm saying encoding claims is unethical for town as well as for scum.

Actually, if the town is any good, you can't even encode role claims in ten different posts. They'll force everyone to say in advance what post contains their encoded claim.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:02 pm

Post by Someone »

Fiasco wrote:
EmpTyger wrote:If a player wants to encode to “prove” their innocence when protown, then they have to accept the limitation it places on them when antitown.
So you're saying people should play sub-optimally as town (by not encoding) to help themselves in future games where they are scum? Then we're getting into Type 2 Metagaming again.
Wouldn't that be type 1 metagaming?
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:12 pm

Post by Fuldu »

Encouraging such coding is not, in my opinion, good town play. As scum, I love it when pro-town roles do that. I have on several occasions succeeded in knocking off a doc who had encoded his role in a way that I noticed. If you make it easy to notice an encoding, then you're basically just arguing in favor of a mass claim in the early stages of the game. If you make it difficult to notice an encoding, then it's not nearly as difficult as you seem to think for scum to quickly and efficiently encode a large number of possible claims into early posts.

My general rule of thumb is that if I don't feel stupid for not having noticed a code indicator once it's pointed out, then I don't give much credence to it as proof of identity, because it's just as likely that there's another one I've missed. And at that point, there's really no value to including those encodings in the first place.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:11 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

mathcam wrote:What
is
the townie's responsibility is to not be foolishly blindsided by someone's claim that since they encoded their role early on, that this proves that they are who they claim to be.
Quoted for truth. Just because someone promised/encoded/repeated their claim in no way makes it more true.

One other thing about invisiposting is that you can't check through quoting during Night phases when the thread is locked (I just discovered this the other day, even though it makes perfect sense), which is when I would be most likely to have time to check for that sort of thing, assuming I did.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:02 pm

Post by Mgm »

I don't think people using code is at all problematic. Anyone could use any code to encode anything. But it simply doesn't prove anything and often it's bad play.

1) Suppose a doc encoded his role in his very first post. If it's an easy to break code, scum will figure it out and off him --> BAD PLAY. If people can't figure it out, it doesn't prove a thing.

2) Scum are free to use code to communicate during the day. The reason PMs are disallowed is because town can't read them, they could pick up on coded messages. And it makes sense from a flavor POV. In a group of people it's possible for scum to subtly signal each other.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:13 pm

Post by VisMaior »

I think codes are a valid strategy. Sometimes codes are best play, (like, for instance, masons clearing each other) sometimes not (doc roleencoding or somesuch). I think mods should not discoursge players doing it if they wish. I compare it to any other strategy they do. like, one might think scum lynching each other might be a bad strategy, or suboptimal play, yet, the actual scum players have to decide if they do it or not (noone wuold even think about disallowing that one). I would feel disallowing codeing would place an unnatural and unnecessary limit on the players.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:19 am

Post by Fiasco »

I disagree with all of you. First off, it's easy for a competent player to encode a claim in an undetectable way. That is the sort of code I'm talking about. Now, it's true that a scum
could
encode ten different role claims in ten different posts, but...

1. Can you expect a scum to be as likely to encode ten different claims as a townie is to encode one claim, given that it's a lot of boring work? I mean, do you know of any examples where scum actually did this?
2. In a themed game or even in a themeless closed-setup game, there are a
lot
more than ten possible claims you might want to make later; often, your options as a scum don't become clear until a few people have died and their names and roles have been revealed.
3. If the town requires everyone to encode their claim in a specific post or even a specific sentence, is it still as easy to encode ten different claims? I think by using e.g. RSA encryption, you can remove any ambiguity about what the encoded message was. (Maybe there are less math-heavy ways of accomplishing the same thing for practical purposes.) This is a game-breaking strategy, people.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:29 am

Post by VisMaior »

Not really. I have yet to see a game that got broken because of a code.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:55 am

Post by Fiasco »

That's because people aren't using the strategy, not because it isn't game-breaking.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:10 am

Post by VisMaior »

I dont really see how it is game-breaking tough. I think if it would people would use it extensively. And if they would, mafia would look for the clues. And then it would be like a massclaim, with no ordering. and that favors the mafia...
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:12 am

Post by Fiasco »

You're assuming the mafia could break all codes. Good luck trying to break RSA encryption.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:13 am

Post by VisMaior »

You assume people use RSA in a forum game. Good luck with your sanity check.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:16 am

Post by Fiasco »

Well, I'm not really familiar with the technical aspects of it, but why couldn't people use RSA in a forum game? I'm sure there's some simple freeware that can do it. Then you can post the encrypted message and the public key, and when it's time to claim, you post the private key.

As I said, for practical purposes there are probably ways to achieve the same result without heavy math. Even if that's all impossible, there's still points 1. and 2. to consider.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:30 am

Post by mith »

RSA would be very easy to use. And it's quite simple to come up with a code that no one is going to be able to break.

I do (still) think codes should be discouraged, though I'm not sure there is a fair way to go about actually banning them. I have less of a problem with breadcrumbing (which I do occasionally, on both sides, though if it was against the rules I'd have no problem with that either, so long as the rule is clearly defined). Hard to say where the line is. One problem with ruling out breadcrumbing in particular is that often players let slip hints about their roles without even meaning to.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:35 am

Post by Fiasco »

Fiasco wrote:I'm sure there's some simple freeware that can do it.
ta-da
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:35 am

Post by VisMaior »

I guess if an RSA program would be widely available just for this, yea. But as is, I dont think this is a real problem.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:36 am

Post by VisMaior »

Well, you dont need RSA either, some simple XOR would work just as well.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:43 am

Post by mith »

Not just as well (or at all, depending on what exactly you mean), but still, that's just the point. Even if RSA were unusable for some reason, and it's not, there are all sorts of other ways to easily code claims that can't be broken until you decide to reveal the key later.

The difference between everyone posting their role in code and a massclaim is that the Mafia can't read the code. Massclaim tends not to work (at least in a well designed game) because it helps the Mafia in choosing kills. Here, they would have no new information, while the town would have the benefit of trapping the scum into a claim early on that might be obviously invalid later on.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:50 am

Post by VisMaior »

I mean you dont need public keyt encription, a ymmetric encription will do just as well. XOR beeing the most simple and also the most effective (unbreakable by any means, no less), It never occured to me I should mention other ones...

I agree that if this arises, it should be banned. Or, alternatively, scum should get some indication as to what kind of flavor they should claim. Or something. Safeclaims even.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:52 am

Post by VisMaior »

If I modded a game where this would come up, Id just delete/alter the encrypted post to some gibberish. Heh, thatd be some bastardy :)
cop:"here is the key, just decrypt to see Im the cop"
people:*decryptdecrypt* Err, no, its still gibberish.
cop: "wha? WTF? OMGHAX!"
people: "ORLY?" *lynchlynch*
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:03 am

Post by Fiasco »

If I'm not mistaken, with XOR encryption, you can make up a key afterward that turns the encrypted post into absolutely any message you want. That defeats the point: you want to force scum to commit themselves to a claim early. With RSA, the message is unique (because the public key has a unique prime factorization).
Last edited by Fiasco on Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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