Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[Kinetic]

FINALLY OVER!

[Yosarian2]

Woo! Game is over, and we somehow actually won! Awesome.

[BillyTwilight]

Nice job guys.

I have TONS to say about this game. It's been a great learning experience, and extremely frustrating at the same time. Grat's to MBL, he pretty much nailed me, although I really thought his case was weak enough to allow me to sneak through into LyLO. I'll post a lot of my thoughts later.

First time I've ever been lynched on mafiascum... damn.

[Thok]

Wow. Just wow.

I knew the case on MBL was poor.

[Thok]

OK, a couple more comments while I'm a little more under control.

One thing worth taking from this game is the observation that stupid doesn't necessarily equal scum, while controlled reasonable arguments don't necessarily equal town. (See Guardian and MBL for examples of the first situation, while Jack and BT are obviously examples of the second situation.) Obviously they aren't exclusive (YB would count as a person who acted in a stupid manner and also was scum) but it's worthwhile looking closer at what people were actually doing.

Thanks for putting up with me taking my time to think about the situation. I was rereading stuff, and at the time I made my vote, I'd probably put my confidence in who was scum at about 60% BT, 30% MBL, 8% The Fonz and 2% Yosarian2 (numbers totally not scientifically accurate.) I spent a non-trivial amount of time thinking about possible night kills in the event I was wrong while I was at an A's-Giants game with my family.

[BillyTwilight]

OK, a couple more comments while I'm a little more under control.

One thing worth taking from this game is the observation that stupid doesn't necessarily equal scum, while controlled reasonable arguments don't necessarily equal town. (See Guardian and MBL for examples of the first situation, while Jack and BT are obviously examples of the second situation.)

This makes me very sad...

[Thok]

This makes me very sad...

I can understand why that is. And to be fair, I probably would have pushed for Guardian's lynch if I was in the game when he did his doc unclaim. But not everybody has the same style of play.

[BillyTwilight]

All right, I might as well get this over with.

The decision to bus YB came because of an early game interaction with AE. When MoS replaced in he had me listed as likely town in his initial post, and AE asked him to explain what I had done to make him feel that way. YB of course answered for him. At that point I decided that YB had to die. I never thought at the time that the game would go on as long as it did, and I expected people to go back and catch that and draw a nice little triangle around the three of us. Had I realized the game would go on as long as it did, I probably would have let that slide. As it was, I decided that YB had to go, and I'd look better pushing it from the start than jumping in late. I also felt that YB would eventually be lynched anyway, so better to make myself look as town as possible right? Well, YB didn't take very kindly to all of his scumbuddies voting him, and he basically outed us. I could have crawled through the screen and throttled him when he called me the GF in thread. My only hope was that when he was lynched at the end of day 1 everyone would take it as OMGUSing... well we saw how that went. I truly was pissed when he lived.

Then MoS decided go off on a wildcard and play his strange post #1136. I wasn't sure what he was doing, but if I had to guess I'd say this is the reason that Jack took him out (and not MBL's post against him; I highly doubt Jack gave a lot of credence to that). It was a big red flag that MoS was sporting some kind of role, and well worth a Night 1 shot.

So I missed bussing a partner I needed to get rid of and lost another partner in the night phase. Then I went on several vacations/conference trips in the summer during day 2 and come back to find that Sarc is on the verge of getting lynched. I didn't know what to do, so I just hoped that someone would chose YB over Sarc. Didn't happen, and I was left with 2 buddies down by the start of day 3 and a third buddy who I had been trying to get you guys to lynch all game long. Ouch.

MBL, I sent in the Glork kill because I basically was pissed and didn't really know what to do. At the time I was very suspicious of Guardian's doc claim, and I hoped that Guardian wasn't a doc and that any real doc in the game would choose to protect Guardian instead of Glork. I was right on the first count and wrong on the second. Boo. So start of day three, I had lost half my scumteam and just missed a nightkill, and the guy I was playing with was starting to drop off the map plus I'd been bussing him all game. MBL was exactly right, I just felt depressed and didn't really want in the game anymore, and posted saying I might ask for a replacement. Funny how 1 line out of thousands in a huge game like this can come back to haunt you. I think if that post hadn't been there MBL would have been much less convicted about me being the GF in endgame, and that lack of conviction might have swayed Thok toward voting MBL instead. Damn, it's painful.

As I said, I was pretty bummed, so I decided I'd try to go out in a flash of glory by attacking Glork and just having fun with it. I got lucky in Guardian's undoing and even more lucky in outing Glork, because I felt like I came out looking pretty townish in that argument. Certainly Glork wasn't honed in at that point.

The rest of the game was pretty straight-forward. I made some major mistakes coming down the stretch. I should have left Glork alive... RB was effectively doomed between lynches and SK kills; I should have left him alive to reek havoc with MBL. I could have killed him later if he became suspicious of me, and at the time he was pretty convinced I was town. I made a terrible blunder in not lynching RB. I was more than willing to do so, but I thought for sure someone would vote for Simenon. I was stunned when it didn't happen. I was even more sure that if he needed to RB would move his vote to Yos to end the day instead of allowing a no lynch. I was quite upset at that, but he was following my lead. I simply couldn't move my vote to Yos after stating multiple times that I wasn't going to vote outside the pool of uninvestigated. I REALLY wish RB had moved his vote then. I wouldn't have looked as bad for the Simenon nk and getting one mislynch would have been much easier.

Not lynching MBL when I had the chance was just plain dumb. I was so worried about setting myself up for the final day that I didn't allow myself to even get into it. I could have left myself, Yos, and Fonz alive and at least had a chance in LyLO. That was probably the single most stupid thing I've ever done in mafia. MBL was desperate at that point, and that desperation is what drove him to actually figure out what was going on. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Well, I'm going to cry myself to sleep now. I have a lot more to say about the game, but it will have to wait till later. Any thoughts?

[Yosarian2]

Billy: Eh, it wasn't stupid, hesitating to hammer MBL there really did make you look more town, just like you thought it would. It didn't turn out the way you wanted, but I'm not sure that means it was a mistake on your part.

Anyway, partway through the last day, I just suddenly, all at once, realized I had been wrong and MBL was actually town. I can't really explain how I came to that conclusion, and I know it frustrated the heck out of Fonz, but...well, I just knew, heh.

[Simenon]

Twilight played a great game, if not strategically.

Why is Yos always scum to me? Every single game.

[Yosarian2]

Twilight played a great game, if not strategically.

Why is Yos always scum to me? Every single game.

Lol. I donno, but you're not the only one who think that.

I blame the "best manipulater" tag.

[Rogueben]

Well done to Billy. Watching that last day was painful for me.

Well done to MBL for leading the charge on the last day.

Big thanks to PJ for picking up the game and completing it.

[BillyTwilight]

Billy: Eh, it wasn't stupid, hesitating to hammer MBL there really did make you look more town, just like you thought it would. It didn't turn out the way you wanted, but I'm not sure that means it was a mistake on your part.

Anyway, partway through the last day, I just suddenly, all at once, realized I had been wrong and MBL was actually town. I can't really explain how I came to that conclusion, and I know it frustrated the heck out of Fonz, but...well, I just knew, heh.

You think it frustrated FONZ.....!!!!

[The Fonz]

It frustrated me when he used it to conclude that

I

was the scum, yes. At least I'm getting better at not blowing up in that scenario.

I don't think you'd have had a prayer in endgame anyway, tbh Billy.

[Yosarian2]

You think it frustrated FONZ.....!!!!

Lol. Well, I don't mind frustrating the scum.

It frustrated me when he used it to conclude that I was the scum, yes. At least I'm getting better at not blowing up in that scenario.

I don't think you'd have had a prayer in endgame anyway, tbh Billy.

Yeah...the mistake I made there was to eliminate Billy incorrectly. when I actually shouldn't have done so. I figured that out eventually, though.

And, I donno...if MBL had been speedlynched early in that day, and Billy kille,d I donno, Thok, Billy might have won.

[The Fonz]

In the speedlynch example, probably.

Tbh, in the entire 130 pages of game, that one post by YB where he said he thought Billy was the mafia GF added up to more evidence of BT-GF than everything else that went on altogether, in my eyes.

Shamefully, I think at one point there was a time, when no-one really was on RB when I was about to post 'And I still want an explanation from Billy for saying he'd return to RB at deadline then not doing so' but chickened out because it looked like a cleancut MBL vs me choice, and I didn't want to antagonise my one apparently staunch ally.

Mad props to MBL for continuing fighting in the face of a seemingly hopeless situation, and dragging up the kind of stuff that would have caused me to vote MBL at lylo, even if we had taken down MBL first. A lesson to all there.

[Thok]

To be fair, I had put BT in my most likely to be scum slot by 3191 (before MBL's big post about it) and possibly even a bit before that when I was arguing with BT about his behavior during the day. Ironically, the tone of MBL's post against BT was part of the reason I had his scum percentage as high as I did (and the fact that he accused BT of lying about being on vacation); I was worried that I had misread things and that he was scum scrambling to avoid a lynch.

I mean, that's not to take away from MBL, who did a good job of finding scum once his back was against the wall.

A lot of my read came off of last day stuff. As I said, Yos2's flip on MBL made no sense for him as scum. Similarly, The Fonz's reaction to the me/Yos2/The Fonz attacks didn't strike me as something likely to come from scum (specifically the declaration of me likely being protown while Yos2 wasn't; scum would have kept suspicion on both of us to keep options open or dropped the attack on Yos2 to butter up to me.) (Rereading confirmed by feelings about The Fonz, as YB was attacking him as scum after the MOS/Sarcastro deaths, and I decided that YB wouldn't be bussing at that time.)

[MrBuddyLee]

Cool.

Thanks so much, PJ, for keeping this thing alive for so long. Did it last a full year?

Apologies, Billy for nailing you in somewhat of a dirty fashion. It felt more than a little scuzzy getting you for your misfortune having to deal with Yogurt, lol. You played a great game as scum, but this is a team game and your teammates did you in.

Apologies to everyone for my shoddy play end of the previous day. I really should have lynched Simenon. I honestly was overseas in a strange land posting from work and half-focused. Bleh, almost cost us the game.

Fonz, sorry for the snitty comments here and there. I hoped that if I actually expressed my frustration that maybe it would look more like the real deal and less like trapped scum whining. Oh well.

Yos, you did look kinda scummy. I don't think it gets you lynched too often though, which is a good thing! I need to see what you actually look like as scum someday.

Thok, nice job replacing and nailing the game. You were pretty much spot-on.

Final day, I reread the game from each player's perspective, and Billy was first because I was expecting to clear him and ignore him for the day. But it all just fell together like a storybook--everything made sense if you looked at the game from a "Yogurt is a critical threat to Billy's team" perspective. One of my greater "holy shit" moments in Mafia.

[Guardian]

Okay, I'll take credit where credit is due.

You're welcome for me claiming....



^_^.

[Thok]

Thanks so much, PJ, for keeping this thing alive for so long. Did it last a full year?

Taking a look, this seems to be the longest finished game that's ended as a town win.

[Shteven]

Man I've had this thread bookmarked for too long.

When did I die, day 4, 5? What did I do in this game?

Excellent game, although quite a bit too long...but hey, sometimes that happens. One day I'm going to figure out why I get lynched as town every game. It would be nice to be night killed for once.

[Jack]

Jesus christ you guys take a long time to finish a game.

I was planning on killing YB the next night. After that it was either yos or BT because I planned on going after the others in thread. I wonder if I would have made it. Probably would have gone crazy and confessed what with the length of these later days.

[BillyTwilight]

Jesus christ you guys take a long time to finish a game.

I was planning on killing YB the next night. After that it was either yos or BT because I planned on going after the others in thread. I wonder if I would have made it. Probably would have gone crazy and confessed what with the length of these later days.

Good to see you Jack! You back on site or just commenting on the endgame?

[The Fonz]

To put things in perspective, Open 60, with the same setup, finished one day after this one. It started on January 5th of this year. This one started may 23rd of last year.

[Jack]

Jesus christ you guys take a long time to finish a game.

I was planning on killing YB the next night. After that it was either yos or BT because I planned on going after the others in thread. I wonder if I would have made it. Probably would have gone crazy and confessed what with the length of these later days.

Good to see you Jack! You back on site or just commenting on the endgame?

Just commenting...don't have the time to play. Which is actually a good thing lol.