Rules Discussion

[Yaw]

Time for a reality check. I have no prior experience in making RPG rules, and Dourgrim is gone. So whatever I've been doing with rules so far is more like a chicken running around without a head than anything effective or efficient.

For that reason, I'm currently reading up on rules systems, with the hope that will give me more of a basis for creating something that works. (I'm not intending to necessarily adapt a rules system outright, just to get workable ideas that can be adapted.) I'd like to open this up as a collaborative effort, since any rules decisions will necessarily affect how the world works, and how we mod.

I'm currently reading through:

D20
FUDGE
GURPS Lite (Available as a free e-book download here)

Although you should feel free to refer to any other system you have or have used. (Please keep in mind during discussion that I have no intention of buying resources for this, nor should that be expected of other mods.)

I look forward to hearing from everyone.

[jeep]

There is an offshoot of fudge that could be decent to look at. It also is "numberless" too, though.

-JEEP

[Pie_is_good]

From skimming, I think somewhere inbetween FUDGE and D20 would be most effective - The versatility of FUDGE seems to apply well to what we (Yaw, really) have already put in place. I like the core mechanic of D20 (Dice + Modifier vs. Target Number), but the use of a D20 seems to make things a bit more chance-based than they should be (e.g., if a character at the upper bound of human strength were to armwrestle a character at the lower bound of human strength, D20 would have the weaker character winning nearly a third of the time).

I'll post more here when I've read the rundowns more thoroughly.

[jeep]

The normal human range of anything is 1-7... heroes can get to 10.

I remember that someplace Yaw wrote up a brief description of that these numbers mean. Does anyone know where that is?

This, of course maps to FUDGE quite nicely...


1. Terrible
2. Poor
3. Mediocre
4. Fair
5. Good
6. Great
7. Superb
8. Legendary



And we can add the extra two on... Maybe "Mythical" for 9 and "God-like" for 10.

-JEEP

[Yaw]

I've looked around through both stuff I've written and stuff Dourgrim's written, and I don't see anything about attribute level descriptions anywhere. Sorry about that.

The versatility of FUDGE seems to apply well to what we (Yaw, really) have already put in place.

More correctly, most of this stuff is what Dourgrim's put in place. It does seem to fit reasonably well in a lot of areas, although it also appears to have some elements Dourgrim did not intend (for example, using a system of faults in character creation is something Dour specifically mentioned he didn't want in the Mish Mash thread).

I'm finished reading through FUDGE and around halfway through GURPS Lite at the moment. Will get to D20 next.

[Yaw]

Finished reading. (Ok, I skimmed D20, because it's incredibly long.)

General impressions:

I think GURPS, in being general, is far more tech-oriented than our scenario. It's also not exactly clear how it would handle magic, although that sort of thing could be implied. The "Jumper" advantage is right out -- even if we do end up with Randomland (which is unnecessary), having players able to jump in and out of it kind of defeats the purpose of a plane reserved to discipline players that get out of line. There's some interesting stuff here in terms of skills, but not too much more. I think the method of resolving actions is also somewhat counterintuitive, as most people expect to roll

over

a set number to succeed, rather than under.

D20 is just huge, and detailed, and potentially overpowered. Some of the higher level stuff makes characters almost immortal, which just isn't conducive to good storytelling. On the plus side, there's a lot there, particularly in terms of weapons, armour, monsters, etc. That said, it's the most rigid system of the three, and I get the feeling that running this rpg in that manner would be closer to playing a game of Risk than what Dourgrim originally envisioned.

Which leaves FUDGE. After reading it over, I <3 FUDGE. The biggest issue is that I feel we need a rules system that will get out of the way of the story itself. It should support the storytelling, but ultimately this succeeds or fails based on the quality of the stories we tell as mods and the quality of the stories our players tell. GURPS and D20 don't feel like they'd do that, particularly in combat situations where both make combat feel like some weird variation on Chess. On the other hand, FUDGE is flexible and unobtrusive, fits what we already have to a certain degree, and feels fairly easy to implement. It also allows combat to be "dangerous", which is what Dourgrim wanted (in fact, it lets us set how dangerous we want combat to be). I think like any system it would have to be adapted, but overall I think it's the best place to start.

So, FUDGE -- agree or disagree?

If FUDGE, we should start with adaptations. Jeep has posted the names of the 7 levels they list above (Legendary isn't technically in there). Should we keep the same names? If not, ideas on what to call the levels?

[jeep]

Legendary is there as an option... But I like FUDGE a lot.

-JEEP

[Pie_is_good]

I certainly like FUDGE as the main system to work with, but I'm most concerned that its flexibility could prove to be as much a drawback as an advantage. Given that players will spend their time in Amstaad bouncing between numerous mods, our mods will need to make the transitions as smooth as possible. Which is where the rigidity of, say, D20 comes in handy.

That said, I think FUDGE is the place to start. But, especially given that we're operating a multiple-mod RPG, we're going to need to tread with caution.

[Yaw]

Yes, consistency is going to be an issue. Jeep's been playing around with phpbb3, and it seems to have some things to help us in forum organization. For example, we could create a secret thread/forum in which we'd post any actions that came up, and what level we judged them to be. Over time, we'd be building up a database to help us become more consistent. We could even do some test cases before starting to give us a good basis.

[jeep]

Yaw, try reading this: http://www.panix.com/~sos/rpg/fudfive7.pdf

An interesting list of skills, if nothing else. Also, are you using the 1995 FUDGE rules? http://www.fudgerpg.com/files/pdf/fudge_1995.pdf or an older set?

-JEEP

[Yaw]

The version I linked to originally appears to be from 1995, yes. (Although the one you just linked to has a few extra pages at the end, right after section 7 ends.)

I skimmed 5-point, and it looks interesting in quite a few ways, particularly the list of skills. I also like the idea to have characters pick skills before attributes -- essentially, allowing them to define the character through what he/she can do first, then filling in the attributes to fit.

[Yaw]

Skill Assessment:

Here's the old list by Dour. I've categorized the skills into Easy/Average/Hard/Very Hard based on difficulty. Comment on agree/disagree with difficulties. In addition, this is an opportunity to let us better define the skills, and to determine which skills should be added or deleted, so comment on that. Note that difficulty determines the default level of the skill -- Easy is 3 (Mediocre), Average is 2 (Poor), Hard is 1 (Terrible), Very Hard is non-existent.

BODY Skills
Melee Weapons (must choose one of the following subcategories)
- Swords (CRD or STR, choose during creation)

Average

- Knives & Daggers (CRD)

Average

- Staves (CRD)

Average

- Axes & Polearms (STR)

Average

- Blunt Weapons (Maces, Clubs, Flails, etc) (STR)

Average

- Exotic Weapons (by specific weapon) (STR or CRD, dependent on weapon)

Average/Hard

Archery (CRD)

Average

Unarmed Combat (CRD or STR, choose during creation)

Average

Evasion (CRD)

Average

Swimming (STR)

Average

Climbing (STR)

Easy

Stealth (CRD)

Average

Sleight of Hand (CRD)

Average

Acrobatics/Tumbling (CRD)

Average

Riding (Horse or specific mount type) (CRD)

Average

HEART Skills
Animal Handling (EMP)

Average

Negotiation (CHR)

Average

Intimidation (CHR)

Average

Bluff (CHR)

Average

Intuition (EMP)

Average

Leadership (CHR)

Average

Seduction/Charm (CHR)

Average

Entertain (Play specific instrument, Storytelling, Singing, etc.) (EMP or CHR, dependent on style)

Average

Faith (EMP)

Average

MIND Skills
Knowledge (must choose one of the following subcategories) (REA)
History

Average

Religion

Easy

Magick

Hard

Alchemy

Hard

Culture

Easy

Criminal

Average

Law

Hard

Etiquette

Average

Commerce

Average

Military

Average

Engineering (REA)

Hard

Craft (choose specific) (REA)

Average

Observation (ACU)

Easy

Command (ACU)

Hard

Siegecraft (ACU)

Average

Appraise (ACU)

Average

Language (choose specific) (REA) (A rank of 3 or better is required to be able to read and write the language)

Average

SPIRIT Skills
Alchemy (POW)

Very Hard

Sorcery (POW)

Very Hard

Divination (POW)

Very Hard

Conjuration (POW)

Very Hard

Ritual Magick (POW)

Hard

Focus (PUR)

Average

Willpower (PUR)

Average

[jeep]

I've FUDGE-ified Nithrar:

Name: Nithrar
Player: JEEP
Race: Elven
Description:
At 5'8" Nithrar's healthy 170 pounds don't make him seem imposing to most. His long hair is dark enough to be almost black, making his appearance seem almost human. He generally wears earth tones.

Attributes

: (four free)

HEART

: (pretty good)
Empathy: Good
Charisma: Fair

MIND

: (Great)
Acuity: Great
Reason: Great

BODY

: (Good)
Strength: Fair
Coordination: Great

SPIRIT

: (Mediocre)
Power: Poor
Purpose: Fair

Qualities

(Special attributes, 2 points to spend and can go negative. Karma defaults to 1, others to 0)
0 Status
0 Reputation
3 Wealth (same as Gift: Very wealthy)
0 Karma

Skills

(30 free / 30 taken)
HEART Skills 3
* teaching good/great depending on its difficulty (3)

MIND Skills
* (4 Trade Tongue)
* (10 Elven Language)

BODY Skills 21
* Unarmed Combat (CRD) superb (5)
* Exotic Weapons- Da'Tashi sticks (CRD) great (4)
* knives/daggers good (3)
* throwing/aim good (3)
* stealth fair (2)
* staff mediocre (1)
* Evasion (CRD) good (3)

SPIRIT Skills 6
* Sorcery (POW) Great

Equipment and possessions of note

Training Hall with a rather nice apartment above. Training hall has a lot of necessary equipment including a decent selection of "live" weapons.

[jeep]

I might drop some of the others to get alchemy knowledge... but I'll wait to hear what the character creation rules become.

-JEEP

[Yaw]

Descriptions (I'm copying from 5-point FUDGE where applicable and appropriate):

BODY Skills
Melee Weapons (must choose one of the following subcategories)
- Swords (CRD or STR, choose during creation)

Using any sword as a weapon. (FUDGE distinguishes between one-handed and two-handed swords, but I think we probably have that covered already sylistically -- CRD Swords is more of a rapier/epee thing, while STR Swords is more two-handed and bastard swords.)

- Knives & Daggers (CRD)

Using a knife in combat, but not necessarily to throw it.

- Staves (CRD)

Using a staff as a weapon.

- Axes & Polearms (STR)

Using an axe or a poleaxe as a weapon.

- Blunt Weapons (Maces, Clubs, Flails, etc) (STR)

Using a club, mace, or flail as a weapon. (FUDGE splits these into Club/Mace and Flail, which might be worth considering. A morning star acts quite differently from a mace.)

- Exotic Weapons (by specific weapon) (STR or CRD, dependent on weapon)

Catchall for using a more outlandish weapon in combat. Difficulty and required attribute depends on the weapon involved.

Archery (CRD)

Using and caring for a bow and arrows.

Unarmed Combat (CRD or STR, choose during creation)

The ability to fight without weapons. If using a specific style (martial art), that should be specified.

Evasion (CRD)

The ability to dodge a blow or thrown weapon. (I'm not sure about this one -- it seems that some aspects should already be covered by the various weapon/combat skills, and other aspects by acrobatics/tumbling. Is this entirely redundant?)

Swimming (STR)

Moving yourself through water without drowning.

Climbing (STR)

Climbing cliffs, trees, walls, etc. Can't be used on sheer surfaces -- there must be some ability to get a handhold.

Stealth (CRD)

Moving without attracting attention.

Sleight of Hand (CRD)

Manipulating small objects cleverly in your hands so as to conceal what you are actually doing with them.

Acrobatics/Tumbling (CRD)

Moving your body gracefully and successfully through difficult maneuvers, such as rolls, tumbles, leaps, springing to your feet, etc.

Riding (Horse or specific mount type) (CRD)

Riding and controlling a mount safely, comfortably, and with precision.

HEART Skills
Animal Handling (EMP)

Managing animals in many situations, and training animals for specific tasks.

Negotiation (CHR)

Bartering, bargaining, or mediating with another person in a commercial or political situation.

Intimidation (CHR)

The ability to frighten or bully another person into doing what you want them to do.

Bluff (CHR)

Misleading people into thinking you will perform an action you have no intention of performing. (FUDGE definition instead of Dour's...they're slightly different, but I think this one's a little clearer.)

Intuition (EMP)

The ability to "know" things in-character that perhaps aren't obvious. This Skill is used by the Mods to assist a character who might be stuck and cannot deduce the solution to a particular dilemma.

Leadership (CHR)

The ability to lead groups of people.

Seduction/Charm (CHR)

Making people like you by complimenting them, or by arousing sexual interest.

Entertain (Play specific instrument, Storytelling, Singing, etc.) (EMP or CHR, dependent on style)

The ability to connect with an audience using mastery of an instrument, voice, telling stories, etc.

Faith (EMP)

Used to represent a person's dedication and devotion to a particular deity, and that deity's willingness to help out if needed.

MIND Skills
Knowledge (must choose one of the following subcategories) (REA)
History

Knowledge of historical figures and events. This can be a broad and shallow skill, such as World History, or a narrower and deeper skill, such as history of a specific city.

Religion

Knowledge of a specific religion’s beliefs, dogma, and rituals. It may also be Comparative Theology, in which case the knowledge is broader – covers more than one religion – but shallower.

Magick

Knowledge of the history and underlying philosophy behind magick. (I really don't like this. If magick involves training to use -- and it does -- then some philosophical context would be involved in the training, and hence part of the various Spirit skills. In addition, there are three kinds of magick that could be involved here (sorcery, conjuration, divination), each of which has a completely unique and incompatible philosophy. Yet, this skill at present doesn't differentiate between them. I'm honestly thinking of dropping this.)

Alchemy

Knowledge of the philosophies behind the use of alchemy. (Again, not happy for similar reasons as with Magick. I'm thinking of changing this to a more general Herbalism skill, to allow for healing outside of alchemical magick. It occurs to me that alchemy could be a lengthy process to use, and wounded people don't necessarily have that sort of time.)

Culture

Knowledge of the norms and characteristics of a specific culture. This can also be a knowledge of comparitive cultures, in which case the knowledge is broader but shallower.

Criminal

(I honestly don't have the slightest clue what Dourgrim meant by this one. Knowledge of how to be a criminal? How to catch criminals, as in forensics or psychological profiling? Is there something suggested by this title that's worth including, or is it better to just drop this skill?)

Law

Knowledge of legal matters.

Etiquette

Knowledge of good manners in any society, and the ability to carry them out.

Commerce

Knowledge of how to conduct and manage business affairs.

Military

Knowledge of military history and weaponry.

Engineering (REA)

The ability to design and construct large, permanent structures (buildings, bridges, etc.)

Craft (choose specific) (REA)

The ability to produce work of artisan quality in a given area.

Observation (ACU)

The ability to be aware of one's surroundings. This includes both noticing things as they happen and skill in actively searching for hidden or concealed objects.

Command (ACU)

The knowledge and ability to apply tactics and strategy in warfare.

Siegecraft (ACU)

The ability to design, construct, and use large weaponry (catapaults, ballistae, etc.)

Appraise (ACU)

The ability to determine the worth of an object, and to detect defects.

Language (choose specific) (REA) (A rank of 3 or better is required to be able to read and write the language)

Speaking and understanding a language. Characters understand their own language at no cost. Learning each additional foreign language is a separate Language skill.

SPIRIT Skills
Alchemy (POW)

The ability to manipulate natural processes for a desired result. Usually involves creating artifacts and potions.

Sorcery (POW)

The ability to use the elements to produce an effect. Sorcery is a creative skill, and is "stereotypical" magick (fireballs, flying, etc.)

Divination (POW)

The ability to manipulate time to perceive hidden events in the past or present, and/or influences on the future. The tools for divination take different forms, usually tied into the culture using them.

Conjuration (POW)

The ability to summon objects or beings from the Astral Realms.

Ritual Magick (POW)

The ability to work with other users of magick to produce more powerful effects. This only works when two users of the same type work together. (So, a sorcerer can use ritual magick to work with another sorcerer, but not with a conjurer.)

Focus (PUR)

An abstract representation of a person's "ki" (his ability to harness his Spirit to assist a mundane action). People who do not actively wield magick may still harness the power of their Spirit by using Focus to temporarily raise another Ability.

Willpower (PUR)

The ability of a person to resist an effect (magickal or otherwise) that might alter his will, actions, or desires. It also allows a person to function while seriously wounded.

Whew. Additional notes:

I like Jeep's additions of Teaching to Heart skills (CHR?) and Throwing to Body skills (CRD). These should be added.

I really think some form of healing outside of alchemy is required, some sort of "battle medic" idea. Not sure precisely where that fits.

With the actual magick requiring serious training to pull off (note the Very Hard difficulty rankings), I really think Spirit will get shortchanged. With only two skills readily accessible to characters that don't want to specialize, I can see fighter-type characters sucking as many levels out of Spirit attributes as possible to boost their abilities elsewhere. I think more skills that are generally accessible are needed in this category to promote a bit more balance in character creation...but I don't know what those new skills might be.

Thoughts?

[Yaw]

Also, Jeep found FATE, an implementation of FUDGE. Just some more reading material.

[Yaw]

Summarizing FATE so people don't have to read 90 pages (unless they want to)...

Aspects:

FATE does away with Attributes completely, reasoning that for storytelling purposes, Attributes are irrelevant the majority of the time. Instead, FATE uses Aspects, which are more open-ended. A character with high STR before could take the Aspect "Strong", but it's also possible to take aspects that reflect story elements (Relationship with Mother), items (Nithrar's Karambit would be an Aspect), or personality traits (Greedy). Each level of an Aspect taken can be used up by a player to work outcomes into his/her favour where necessary. So if strength is relevant in a situation, and the character gets a bad roll, he can use the Strong Aspect to intercede and get a die altered, or get a reroll.

Fate Points:

FATE is based around storytelling, and Fate Points are the currency. So a player with a Cowardly Aspect can get Fate Points from the mod for acting cowardly in a situation. Alternately, when that player feels the need to go against type, he/she can buy off the mod with accumulated Fate Points in order to stand and fight. This usually proceeds like an auction -- the mod offers Fate Points to run, the player decides to take them or ante up. A Fate Point can also be used to raise a roll by 1. Essentially, Fate Points are justification to take what would normally be flaws or faults as Aspects. Since flaws provide for better storytelling opportunities, they provide more opportunities to get Fate Points.

Skills:

Skill lists are naturally specific to whatever game you're running, and can be defined by mod or players, as broadly or specifically as desired. FATE Skills have two important factors. First of all, each skill level represents a difference from the norm. So not having a skill means it's really at Mediocre (-1). Taking a level raises it to Average (0), another level brings it to Fair (+1), and so forth. It's possible to require an additional level to raise skills to Mediocre in some cases, depending on the game and the difficulty of the skill. Second, skills must conform to the Skill Pyramid. That means that every skill at a given level requires at least one extra skill at the level below it. (So you could have 1 Good, 2 Fair, and 3 Average skills. Having 2 Good, 2 Fair, and 4 Average skills would not be allowed.)

The FATE "levels" are:
+6 Legendary
+5 Epic
+4 Superb
+3 Great
+2 Good
+1 Fair
0 Average
-1 Mediocre
-2 Poor
-3 Terrible
-4 Abysmal

Character Creation:

Character creation happens in Phases. Each Phase represents a period of time in the character's life. Each Phase allows a character one Aspect and 4 Skill levels, which should be assigned before moving to the next Phase. Ideally, these should follow naturally out of the character's background -- they are telling their background story in a series of Phases. Usually 5 Phases are enough for character creation, but it can go up to 8. Characters can also use Skill levels to buy "extras" -- passive abilities, equipment, servants, even enemies that can pop up from time to time to add to roleplaying. (It should be noted that these extras usually lie outside the Skill Pyramid.)

There's more stuff about resolving actions and combat, but that's pretty similar to regular FUDGE and there's nothing too revolutionary in there.

Thoughts?

[jeep]

http://www.eatel.net/~mitchw/fstat.html was pretty interesting.

-JEEP

[jeep]

Fate v 3.0 is interesting, but I'm not sure I like everything I know about it:
http://evilhat.wikidot.com/fate-v3

Aspects have changed... no longer having levels, and cost a fate point to invoke.

There's not a lot of information there, but I'm liking the FUDGE version.

-JEEP

[inHimshallibe]

I think FUDGE looks good. I've not read all of it, but going by jeep's example, I think players can grasp this easily, and that the mechanics will unfold in a simple manner when put to gameplay. I probably ought to make one of my own, though, before I make any real comments.

[Yaw]

Yeah. Haven't gotten to v3 yet, but I found that using the system made all the difference in the world. I liked FUDGE (which we used for a combat test in FATE Discussion successfully), but was unsure about FATE until I actually tried to make a character sheet. That alone sold me -- the ability to have a system that gives a character with an actual history and personality that extends through their stats sheet was quite eye-opening. I compare the Oduro sheet from FATE Discussion with the sheet from Combat Test 1 and...there's just no comparison. One's a character, and one's a set of numbers.

So basically, try it out.

[Yaw]

Summarizing differences of FATE v.3 (which has a lot of blanks):

Centre of the ladder (0) moves to Mediocre from Average. I like this change -- if you're spending a skill level to get to Average, it's more intuitive to put it at +1 than 0.

Aspects now require a Fate Point to use, and don't have levels anymore. My sense is that characters have more Fate Points in v3, though, so it ends up balancing out. (Essentially, this opens up ways to use Fate Points, and how often you can access Aspects.) Fate Points refresh in v3; Aspects don't (they no longer need to).

Characters start with 5 free "Stunts". The section on Stunts is currently nonexistent. Bah.

Aspects can now be used in more ways. There's the usual roll changes (although "changing one die to +1" has been changed to "add 2 to the roll", which essentially standardizes things -- though it could be better for players in cases where the lowest die is a 0), and something new called "Tagging", which allows players to access Aspects of other players or items/locations. I don't really grasp that last part.

[jeep]

The old wiki (which I could probably search for) has a section on stunts.

Basically, you spend a skill point to add a stunt. For each SP you spend, you get another box next to it. When you do the stunt, you check one off. It hurts your pyramid, but they are generally pretty powerful. So it's nice. I might have linked something to the old wiki earlier.

-JEEP

[Yaw]

Stunts were in v2 as part of the Magic section, yes. But without anything in v3, there's no way to know if they were changed when the designers decided to give every character 5 free ones to start.

[Yaw]

Just adding two more finds.

Twists -- a discussion on setting difficulties and adjustments (bonuses/penalties)

Spirit of the Century -- A setting using FATE v.3