More Game Ethics: Mod-Abandoned Closed-Setup Games

[Yosarian2]

Hahaha. That's awesome.

[Mr. Flay]

[AniX]

Is it wrong? Yes it is and nobody should ever do it.

Should it be wrong in the sense mith eats your first born if you are caught doing it? Absolutely not.

I have always been an advocate of allowing anything as scum that isn't outright cheating, which this is not. Outright cheating would be something where you clearly gain an advantage, such hacking someone's name to get their role PM or what not. This is too risky and has little to no effect on a game (If a town is really stupid enough to relieve you of their accusations because you said "Hey, I acted similar in this mod-abandoned game that I claim to be cop in.", they have more problems than the fact you may be lying), in addition to the fact that at any point your credibility could be shot by a returning mod or any number of external factors.

Would I do it myself? No.

Would I advise someone to do it? Certainly not.

Should it be a banned mafia practice, as most of these Ethics threads usually evolve into a campaign for? I'm a mafia libertarian and advocate of laissez-faire on the part of the Ruling Elite. The less interference into mafia the "God rules" have, the happier I am. This doesn't strike me as something that is cheating, just bad sportspersonship.

[Seol]

I have always been an advocate of allowing anything as scum that isn't outright cheating, which this is not.

the thing is this isn't done as scum. it's done

outside a game

.

if there's a mod-abandoned game where you didn't reveal your alignment, and then in another game you claim you were cop in that game, that's fine (imo). however claiming in the thread of that game to set up future plays after that game is already finished, not ok.

it's like, i've started discussions on approaches to vigging, for example, in mafia discussion forums. i would never advocate a position that i did not honestly believe in. what i could well do however is, whilst sk in a game, link to my previous arguments and deliberately misinterpret what i said. the original comments were made honestly but i am not above using them within the game.

lying within a game is one thing, but even if it's for the purposes of a specific game, lying outside the game is unethical.

[AniX]

Oh, its definitely unethical. Completely an asshole thing to do. Anyone who pulled it should immediately get punched in the face. This I agree with.

I just don't want this to evolve into what many ethics threads (Especially post-Stallinggate) seemingly (to me, anyway) do: An overall feeling that this activity should be moderated by mafia rules. That bans and suspensions from the site should result from the practice of this activity. That I cannot agree with. I do not want to open the can of worms that administrators and mods can punish for actions done in the past and outside of the game as they apply to things occurring in games and in the present.

[NabakovNabakov]

Well, this seems like it would be an incredibly rare offense anyway, and it's only effective if no one finds out because the misinformation itself is the advantage. If you hack somebody's account and read their role PM, you have gained an advantage. If somebody finds out you did this, you still have the advantage (but you won't be able to exercise it because you will be banned). If you false claim in an abandoned game, and the mod comes back and sets things straight, your advantage is completely shot (and likely turned into a disadvantage). Therefore, being found out is probably punishment enough.

However, what happens if you fake claim while the game is running, it is abandoned, and you say nothing post-game about your role?

[Seol]

I just don't want this to evolve into what many ethics threads (Especially post-Stallinggate) seemingly (to me, anyway) do: An overall feeling that this activity should be moderated by mafia rules. That bans and suspensions from the site should result from the practice of this activity. That I cannot agree with. I do not want to open the can of worms that administrators and mods can punish for actions done in the past and outside of the game as they apply to things occurring in games and in the present.

well, the stallingchamp episode was one where he ruined multiple games beyond repair on separate occasions. that's something which really deserves intervention, but that was a very extreme example.

this is outside mafia rules, but it's reasonable to say it's within community rules, unspoken or no. people should know this is unethical without having to ask. that doesn't mean any breach should automatically incur punishment: i don't think any sort of action would be normally be required unless someone is repeatedly, knowingly and deliberately being antisocial. at that point that person is arguably not part of the community anyway.

[AniX]

well, the stallingchamp episode was one where he ruined multiple games beyond repair on separate occasions. that's something which really deserves intervention, but that was a very extreme example.

this is outside mafia rules, but it's reasonable to say it's within community rules, unspoken or no. people should know this is unethical without having to ask. that doesn't mean any breach should automatically incur punishment: i don't think any sort of action would be normally be required unless someone is repeatedly, knowingly and deliberately being antisocial. at that point that person is arguably not part of the community anyway.

I can agree to that. I invoked Stallingchamp only because there is a definite "9/11" nature to the way what might have been drummed up to a few bad seeds before him now has turned into many otherwise rational people calling for the end to all alts. of any kind and other such activities. I just don't want the call to be made to this become an official mafia rule of regulating what people do outside of a particular game of mafia.

[Mr. Flay]

As a List Mod, I can state categorically that there's a lot more alts out there than most people know about. But on the other hand, I agree with AniX that most of

them

the ones we know about

are used in a totally innocuous manner.