Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

For Team Mafia 2015 Games and Information
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Post Post #6750 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:50 am

Post by hitogoroshi »

VC 139 (Major Day 3, VC 2)


(7)
4nxi3ty:
Bane,
ChannelDelibird, singersigner, Gammagooey, mastin2, vezokpiraka, Untrod Tripod
(Shadoweh)
[Lynch!]


(6)
Not Voting:
ActionDan, Cheetory6, Espeonage, 4nxi3ty, Formerfish, Shadoweh
(vezokpiraka, Untrod Tripod)


With 12 players alive it's 7 to lynch. Major Day Three will end Tuesday, June 10th, at 9PM CST.

Major Day Three Deadline(expired on 2015-06-10 20:00:00)
Last edited by hitogoroshi on Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #6751 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:01 am

Post by hitogoroshi »

The first lynch of the day has occurred on
4nxi3ty.


You are
bladecandlestone
, the
Nemesis
. You are aligned with
Annihilation
.


Abilities



Changeling (Transcendent)

Each Minor and Major Night, you may choose to change your Sign. This change will resolve before all other actions in action resolution.


Imprison (Active)

Match Sign on a player to give them protection and block their Active and Factional abilities. You may choose up to two players for this action, but only one Sign.


Spite (Transcendent)

If you are hammered by a player of your Sign, town loses their next lynch. If you are killed by a player of your Sign, they die. This ability will not trigger if you are the last Annihilation member alive.


Void (Transcendent)

As a member of
Annihilation
, you possess the following abilities.

Bond.
You may speak with all living Annihilation aligned players at all times in your private topic. During Minor and Major Nights, you may submit actions for your teammates in this private topic if they have not submitted an action yet.
Might.
You may use two active or factional abilities each Major Night. However, you may not use the same Active ability more than once.
Unmake.
Match Sign on target player to kill them. Annihilation may submit up to three Unmakes per Major Night. This is a Factional ability.
Duplicate.
One member of Annihilation may use the same Active ability twice each Major Night. This ability is
Locked
, and cannot be used until the
Lock
is removed.


Available abilities


During Minor Nights, your available abilities are:

Detect:
Match Sign on a player and you will receive a "positive" result. Fail to match Sign and receive a "negative" result.
Trace:
Target a player. If they detected and you were not Traced, you will receive the name of the player they detected. Otherwise, you will receive no result.

During Major Nights, your available abilities are
Unmake
and
Imprison.


During Minor and Major Nights, you may use
Changeling
.


As a member of
Annihilation
, you win when there are as many or more
Annihilation
aligned players alive as there are
Creation
aligned players alive and it is Day; OR when all players are dead.


All votes have been reset. The remaining deadline can be used on a second lynch.

Major Day Three Deadline(expired on 2015-06-10 20:00:00)
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Post Post #6752 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:05 am

Post by Cheetory6 »

I'm sorry for being a pain. q.q
It's probably mostly my fault that we lost a lynch over this.
I'm pretty fucking stoked that we were right and that there's a pretty damn good chance that we're going to win this now though.
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Post Post #6753 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:07 am

Post by Cheetory6 »

hito wrote:Match Sign on a player to give them protection and block their Active and Factional abilities. You may choose up to two players for this action, but only one Sign.
Oh my god.
Yes
Yes
yes
esyes
eysesyesyes.
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Post Post #6754 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:08 am

Post by Cheetory6 »

I want to think CDB's odds of being town go up now.
I thinkkkk.
I wantttt.
This:
VOTE: Gamma
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Post Post #6755 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:11 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

hue hue hue hue hue hue hue
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Post Post #6756 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:11 am

Post by vezokpiraka »

vote formerfish


I have more faith in this being scum than gamma.
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Post Post #6757 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:17 am

Post by Cheetory6 »

For FF/Marquisslot to be scum, that means that their buddying of each other earlygame had to be intentional.
I'm not saying it's improbable, but it gives me pause.
I need to reread about five ISOs with things in mind before I can be confident in a read on FF atm.
q.q
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Post Post #6758 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:37 am

Post by Gammagooey »

Cheetory I know you're excited about something but spell out why you actually think 4nx's flip makes me scum. Maybe I'm wrong but if it's what I'm guessing it is your logic would require the order of a few things that happened in-game to be different from what they actually were.
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Post Post #6759 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:39 am

Post by Gammagooey »

I do also wanna say that the Viktor-specific investigative power role claim was bad and everyone should feel bad for not lynching it yesterday.
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Post Post #6760 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:41 am

Post by Gammagooey »

Vote: ActionDan
for now.
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Post Post #6761 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:41 am

Post by Cheetory6 »

It's mostly just gut for now and that I don't trust your ability/your usage of your ability. I have some hesitation as I don't have the full picture as to what your role is and I fully intend to reread with this confirmation in mind at some point, but for now this is how I'm feeling right now so I'm expressing it.
Sucka.

P-Edit: Didn't you hammer Aronis? -.-
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Post Post #6762 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:47 am

Post by Gammagooey »

yes

after trying and trying and trying and trying to get people to lynch 4nx and then nothing fucking happening.
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Post Post #6763 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:52 am

Post by Gammagooey »

HEY CHEETORY

THIS IS MY ISO REGARDING 4NX AND ARONIS. From the point that I voted 4nx yesterday because he wasn't a town read and because tth and oversoul were voting him.

Spoiler: so many fucking words
In post 5840, Gammagooey wrote:pretty sure sheeping tth and oversoul is a lot more useful to actually making the game function than me having my own opinion and he's not a town read so

VOTE: 4nxi3ty

In post 5871, Gammagooey wrote:
4nxi3ty wrote:don't like how vezok's feels the need to state he would prefer to vote aronis

i feel like this criticism is dumb

also i'm a little surprised you aren't commenting on me voting you since you're talking about wagon hops n all

In post 5892, Gammagooey wrote:I very much support aronis and 4nxi3ty being the two wagons that everyone should be getting on

In post 5917, Gammagooey wrote:hey 4nxi3ty

if you've got opinions on actiondan and shadoweh nows probably the time to share

In post 5930, Gammagooey wrote:I believe the transcendent ability

informing if someone is viktor jarvik seems really really specific and weird.

In post 5931, Gammagooey wrote:like if viktor is the last or second to last scum we already pretty much have the ability to plan mass-trace+detect combinations of people and PoE him

why would we get another role that fucks them over even more if Viktor is one of the last survivors to lategame?

In post 5934, Gammagooey wrote:also I don't think this should be considered nearly as much as the Viktor-specific investigation role

but him claiming to trace singer n1 when singer's recently claimed her trace on UT would probably be the go-to easily fakable result if he detected then and needed to make up a trace there.

I think this claim is more likely than not coming from scum.

In post 5939, Gammagooey wrote:pretty sure pretty much everyone has a trace, its just much more advantageous for scum to detect when they think nobody's tracing them to get a sign for a kill later. and dv minor n1 would definitely fit that.

In post 5940, Gammagooey wrote:also let's not talk about the little minor thing about his claim forever

why a viktor specific investigation role? I don't think that's a real thing that exists.

In post 5942, Gammagooey wrote:
In post 5931, Gammagooey wrote:like if viktor is the last or second to last scum we already pretty much have the ability to plan mass-trace+detect combinations of people and PoE him

why would we get another role that fucks them over even more if Viktor is one of the last survivors to lategame?

In post 5943, Gammagooey wrote:like it really does seem like he just wanted to claim an investigative role so he made one based on the sample role PMs.

In post 5945, Gammagooey wrote:They definitely have name fakeclaims at least

there are a bunch of possibilities of him either having a slightly different oracle fakeclaim or him having a VT fakeclaim and wanting to modify it to be investigative if the other fakeclaims make more sense as the other scum given scum abilities and such.

In post 5949, Gammagooey wrote:tbf i would be pretty fine with aronis getting run up again tomorrow

but this is a pretty bad claim and 4nx should die.

actually i'll probably share a few opinions after lunch so I can fuck off and get things done for most of the rest of the day in case a lynch happens before tomorrow

In post 5951, Gammagooey wrote:it's legitimately possible they're both scum.

but 4nx is verrry likely scum with that claim and in case aronis isn't I don't want him to have to claim yet.

In post 5957, Gammagooey wrote:i now support lynching titus for being awful

after we lynch 4nxi3ty

and ut

and shadoweh

so
eventually

In post 5962, Gammagooey wrote:titus

i've already explained exactly why I think what I do about the claim

I think it's very likely made up by scum and you using hito's wording of Viktor's ability to defend 4nx when it needs to be worded that way to function with how it returns no result when the tracer is also being traced is fucking horrific.

In post 5963, Gammagooey wrote:also

literally EVERY TRACE IN THE GAME HELPS TO ELIMINATE VIKTOR

saying he's town for claiming something slightly more powerful but still useless against 3/4ths of the scum team is mind bogglingly stupid.

In post 5978, Gammagooey wrote:no, it doesn't.

if Viktor is one of the last two scum remaining, we could basically just drop everything and make a claimplan to find viktor. i suggested something similar to this day 1. we force 3-4 people to detect, and have anyone that's tracing target one of them without claiming which. Chances are we clear at least 2-3 people of being viktor, and if someone has a no result on them from multiple people they're MCUH more likely, although not guaranteed, to be Viktor.

Having a role that has a sole purpose of finding Viktor even faster does not make sense to me.

In post 5979, Gammagooey wrote:and again, it completely ignores 3/4ths of the scumteam.

if you wanted to make up a low-impact investigative role to claim that might get people off your wagon?

this is it. right here.

In post 5981, Gammagooey wrote:he's claiming he traced you/empire minor n1 and saw you detected ut

In post 6085, Gammagooey wrote:also

CDB

I strongly, strongly believe that 4nx is making a very poor claim that is essentially exactly what scum would claim in this situation.

if you REALLY think that aronis is scum I want you to go back through his iso and actually make a case for him being scum, ideally in the next 24 hours because the deadline's hitting really soon.

I see that aronis's play is generally bad but if you want it A LOT over what I think is 4nx's likely scum-motivated claim and generally mediocre play (and deas hasn't been amazing even though he was definitely at least good early game i think) then I would really think you should fight for it or just join what I think is a very good reason to lynch 4nx.

In post 6132, Gammagooey wrote:I don't think DV saying that he didn't want to do the trace/detect plan day 1 points to him having the role he's claimed- it's tangentially relevant yes but I don't think that him saying that he doesn't want to follow the plan actually makes it more likely that he has that role. I don't see a reason why that decision would be changed by having a slightly stronger trace than everyone else, and I still think that his role as he's claimed it doesn't make sense to exist.

And whoever said that he was tracing people that other people weren't looking at is ABSOLUTELY wrong. empire was almost baned right before DV supposedly traced him, and espeonage has been considered for being lynched and baned throughout the entire game.

In post 6243, Gammagooey wrote:I don't think I can actually express how much I despise Titus eating up 4nx's claim for "giving us Viktor" when there's no reason to think that scum wouldn't claim that sort of weak investigative power role in this situation, he hasn't "given us Viktor" and if he's scum he certainly isn't going to claim to have found him before LYLO unless he feels forced into it by other scum lynches (which if he's not Viktor there's only 2 of, and if he is Viktor then it doesn't matter since he'll literally never come up with a positive result), and how she's she's completely excusing that DV had esp as what seems like a fairly strong townread and then supposedly checked him with an ability that would only even return a guilty on 1/4th of the scumteam, which makes it absolutely useless to try to use it to reinforce a town read on someone.

This is mostly to Oversoul and CDB, but it's not really specific to them, I just think they're more likely to do it than most other people in the game.

If you read through aronis's iso and think that it's very likely to be scum motivated, then fine. I don't think he's looks particularly town and although I think it's pretty unlikely I could be wrong about 4nx's claim.

But if you do that and still think that it's a tossup whether or not aronis is scum, vote 4nx. I've already gone over why I think his claim is likely coming from scum, and I think this sort of hesistance to actually lynch a claimed PR that could theoretically do something useful but is very unlikely to, it exists because there's a fear of fucking over the game by taking that risk. And although I think it's a very small risk, yes it is a risk. And I think creating that hesistance and overly cautious behavior is exactly the reason why 4nx claimed to be a Viktor-only investigative PR, and I strongly, strongly feel that letting that making the "safe" choice here based on the possible potential of a claimed role is wrong. It's a little cliche, but there's always risk in a lynch. Choosing to avoid the worst-case scenario instead of voting for who's showing the most actual scum motivations doesn't win games.

also, I just got ninjaed by like 6 posts including oversoul's vote. so. yep.

In post 6260, Gammagooey wrote:that is a hitoshrug

and i don't think your role points to 4nx being town.

In post 6251, Gammagooey wrote:
Titus wrote:What's the harm in waiting? No ate. Facts.


The harm is not lynching scum. If you narrow down the lynchpool to not include weak PRs, then you destroy your ability to actually lynch scum before lategame. Mod Error finished, with GreyICE fakeclaiming and investigative role, and I think that with the logic you're presenting now you absolutely would have kept his claim alive as long as possible instead of lynching him.

In post 6269, Gammagooey wrote:do think that titus is town for claiming in this way for this reason btw

just also think that her conclusions regarding 4nx are wrong.

In post 6282, Gammagooey wrote:
In post 6275, Cheetory6 wrote:
gamma wrote:just also think that her conclusions regarding 4nx are wrong.
Then say more things and actually engage the gamestate.
I'm getting mad at the fact that voting you was probably the right call.

What in the hellfuck do you think this is

In post 6243, Gammagooey wrote:I don't think I can actually express how much I despise Titus eating up 4nx's claim for "giving us Viktor" when there's no reason to think that scum wouldn't claim that sort of weak investigative power role in this situation, he hasn't "given us Viktor" and if he's scum he certainly isn't going to claim to have found him before LYLO unless he feels forced into it by other scum lynches (which if he's not Viktor there's only 2 of, and if he is Viktor then it doesn't matter since he'll literally never come up with a positive result), and how she's she's completely excusing that DV had esp as what seems like a fairly strong townread and then supposedly checked him with an ability that would only even return a guilty on 1/4th of the scumteam, which makes it absolutely useless to try to use it to reinforce a town read on someone.

This is mostly to Oversoul and CDB, but it's not really specific to them, I just think they're more likely to do it than most other people in the game.

If you read through aronis's iso and think that it's very likely to be scum motivated, then fine. I don't think he's looks particularly town and although I think it's pretty unlikely I could be wrong about 4nx's claim.

But if you do that and still think that it's a tossup whether or not aronis is scum, vote 4nx. I've already gone over why I think his claim is likely coming from scum, and I think this sort of hesistance to actually lynch a claimed PR that could theoretically do something useful but is very unlikely to, it exists because there's a fear of fucking over the game by taking that risk. And although I think it's a very small risk, yes it is a risk. And I think creating that hesistance and overly cautious behavior is exactly the reason why 4nx claimed to be a Viktor-only investigative PR, and I strongly, strongly feel that letting that making the "safe" choice here based on the possible potential of a claimed role is wrong. It's a little cliche, but there's always risk in a lynch. Choosing to avoid the worst-case scenario instead of voting for who's showing the most actual scum motivations doesn't win games.

also, I just got ninjaed by like 6 posts including oversoul's vote. so. yep.

In post 6367, Gammagooey wrote:now that that's done

HEY ARONIS

get in here and fullclaim your role and all your results in the next hour or get dead

In post 6383, Gammagooey wrote:here's to hoping

Vote: Aronis

In post 6366, Gammagooey wrote:
In post 6356, Titus wrote:
In post 6355, Gammagooey wrote:considering that a self-watcher and a watcher-that-was-locked-and-is-actually-still-a-vt-because-game-mechanics are two very different roles, I don't see why not.

And no, because aronis hasn't said anything about his results yet that I see that he could actually be lying about. What is the thing that he's lying about?

tbf cdb is right about aronis not actually claiming his results in his claim being bad but let's stick with the learning exersize here for a bit.


Watcher is Watcher is watcher. That's a stretch and you know it Gamma.

Let's track his actions for a moment. He naked pushes me and Espy saying we're the best choices. Given that's the only thing he's saying at the start of Major Day 2, logical thing (given his claim) is that he's implying a guilty on us.

Yet, later Espy claims to have traced me. Not a word from Aronis. Not a word. Instead, he continues to tunnel me. If Espy's selections were indeed based on his results (namely watching himself), that implies that Espy and I both visited him. However, unless Espy lied OUT OF THE BLUE. Then, Aronis's vote pattern CANNOT be the result of him self-watching. If Aronis result is Not based on his actions, then what is it based on?

Nothing. He's guilty.

okay okay okay sure fine whatever get ready for LEARNING

If we put all your recent posts together, I can see that you're making the following assumptions.
-That there aren't two very similar roles in the game
-That aronis also wouldn't think that there aren't two very similar roles in the game, and would think TTH was scum for claiming watcher and counterclaim him
-That his vote history was largely based on his role and the results he received from it
-and that him tunnelling on you is also because of role results.

Personally, I think that pretty much all of those assumptions are bad assumptions to make, but that's not the point.

The point is that watching you take some piece of information, make several different assumptions from it while not explicitly stating any of them, and just stating the conclusion you get from all those assumptions is incredibly hard to follow, difficult to talk to you about, and given that it took several posts to even GET to the assumptions you're making that I generally disagree with, very very frustrating for most people to try to process your play or engage you with why they think you're wrong/scum/whatever.

Also as my tangential sidenote for the evening, singer wears her emotions on her sleeve and I think that the tone of her posts towards you is strongly indicative of her actually believing that you're scum and trying to convince other people of it, as well as trying to catch you in lies/contradictions/still whatever.

In post 6355, Gammagooey wrote:considering that a self-watcher and a watcher-that-was-locked-and-is-actually-still-a-vt-because-game-mechanics are two very different roles, I don't see why not.

And no, because aronis hasn't said anything about his results yet that I see that he could actually be lying about. What is the thing that he's lying about?

tbf cdb is right about aronis not actually claiming his results in his claim being bad but let's stick with the learning exersize here for a bit.
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Post Post #6764 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:56 am

Post by Cheetory6 »

I mean, I think the votecounts were somewhat close, but you're right that deadline was pretty close to when a hammer did happen.
I'm gonna try to trace what pie is saying about why she thinks you're likely to be town sometime in the next few days along with a bunch of ISOdives.
I'll see how I feel after that.

P-Edit: Gamma I already told you I haven't reread yet.
a) Calm down.
b) If you think that I wouldn't expect you to potentially be willing to hardbus a scummate in team mafia then you do yourself and me a disservice.
Give me some time and I'll have meaningful thoughts and discussion to bring to the table. Unless you think I'm scum and full of shit here, you should focus on other more important things than my read on you atm IMO.
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Post Post #6765 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:04 am

Post by Gammagooey »

You thinking that I would bus 4nx as scum in that situation is right even though I think I would probably come up with a better reason to vote him than "he's not a town read and oversoul and tth are voting him" to get better town cred so thats fine.

whining about me voting Aronis when I tried SO GODAMN HARD to get 4nx lynched first is not fine. It ignores I think around 2 dozen posts of trying to convince people and reach out to specific people (CDB and oversoul) to make the 4nxi3ty lynch happen and that is not something you get to say without it being shat on.
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Post Post #6766 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:19 am

Post by Cheetory6 »

Fair enough.
I'm just kneejerk not liking a lot of things from you right now and it's probably unfair.
I'm just gonna shut up until I've actually got my shit together.
q.q
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Post Post #6767 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:06 am

Post by Gammagooey »

In post 1686, Titus wrote:
In post 1685, ActionDan wrote:
In post 1678, Titus wrote:AD, are you an incredibly smart person who has english as a second language or an aspie? That language is stilted and awkward.


I sometimes assume an affected persona when posting. It's a mechanism that serves me well


When? Because it just makes me want to lynch you.


In post 1723, Cheetory6 wrote:Who should we be wagoning Titus?
Pitch me a case.


In post 1724, Titus wrote:@Cheetory, There's Espy for his fake obtuseness. Bulba because universal scumread, Singer fir their crap. I feel Bulba should not be wagoned but we need to actually start working together. I am not going to take over the game or force my way but I am very frustrated here.


I don't like the above- Titus poking at ActionDan for behaving a little awkwardly but ignoring him very soon after when asked for who to wagon seems bad.

Also think that given Titus's insistence that there were scum in the people being widely-town read that at least one scum is in the pile of useless lurking garbage- personally I still strongly think both vezok and esp are town so I'd think that would be either AD or formerfish.

saying the below while voting aronis and then not showing up again until after the lynch is also bad. I think it's a lot worse than formerfish thinking 4nx's sign changing was more likely coming from town, even though it is at least possible that scum wanted to go all-in on keeping 4nx alive until his Spite ability could potentially win the game for them.
In post 6001, ActionDan wrote:He's effectively L with mastin and aronis in the wings. Id like to read over stuff before day end so if we could wait a tad that'd be great. Immediate reaction to claim is that it's not that bad tho unsure why Victor ability wasn't listed as transcendent
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Post Post #6768 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:18 am

Post by ChannelDelibird »

FRRRRREEEEEEEDDDDOOOOOOOOMMM

Prolly voting Formerfish Today but will see if my team have any different ideas (I'm unlikely to have any bright ones before Sunday)
#greenshirtthursdays
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Post Post #6769 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:21 am

Post by Gammagooey »

Also mentioned this earlier but Titus's quick hop on and off of ActionDan's wagon Major D1 was also pretty sketchy, and Titus started the TSO wagon immediately afterwards when TSO was voting AD.
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Post Post #6770 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:22 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

In post 6759, Gammagooey wrote:I do also wanna say that the Viktor-specific investigative power role claim was bad and everyone should feel bad for not lynching it yesterday.

I've literally used that exact power for a town role in a game before, so eat a dick
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Post Post #6771 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:26 am

Post by Gammagooey »

though tbf the first TSO vote from Titus did come after mastin and ffery talking about it for a bit too.

This game is not your game UT. These are not your mechanics and having a role that could be caught just by using those mechanics competently did not make sense to additionally include another role with the sole purpose of catching it.
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Post Post #6772 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:38 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

I just kind of think setup speculation is a terribad reason for lynching someone and the 4nx case was a lot better after Titus flipped!
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Post Post #6773 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:39 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

and that the role isn't nearly as outlandish as you're claiming!

and that trying to wag your finger at people for lynching scum one day later than you would have preferred isn't the most town thing ever!
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Post Post #6774 (ISO) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:47 am

Post by Gammagooey »

maan do you really think anything useful is going to come out of saying that i'm not doing the most optimalest town things ever

i mean we are kind of just bitching at each other about things that don't really matter at this point but still

how do you feel about AD?
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