Themed or not themed

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Themed or not themed

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:37 am

Post by Primoris »

I was wondering when a game can be classified as themed.

I've looked through a lot of games, but I couldn't really tell when a themed game is a themed game.

Renamed roles would be a regular mini, renamed roles (but taken from a novel) is themed. That is quite clear to me.

But a game with tweaked game-mechanics is classified as themed as well (according to the description below the title of the forum). When I give the Cop an investigation every other night, instead of every night, that doesn't count as themed would it? Edit: What would classify as tweaked game mechanics?
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:34 am

Post by Macros »

thats only a slightly modified role , by diffreent game mechanics i think they mean vast differences, like, um......... i dunno, but a minorly diffrent orle i wouldnt count as thememed
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:59 am

Post by cuban smoker »

Changes game mechanics have included:

-time travel
-security council style

Other examples would include a judge and jury form to Mafia. Many ideas have been discussed, but few are actually implemented.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:39 am

Post by Flying Dutchman »

Well, maybe we should just cancel the themed games, and only sort at player number, as I think the difference is getting VERY small, and it barely exists.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:30 am

Post by Macros »

?
well im lost by that post.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:37 am

Post by Norinel »

There are a few normal games that are probably crazy enough to be considered themed, just to confuse people who don't. The best rule of thumb that comes to mind is that if anything has to be explained in advance (Whether it's a specific source material or public rulechanges that affect everyone) besides the standard rules, it's themed. The biggest exception to that would be when the fact that the game is simpler than the average normal mini is what has to be explained; see Mountainous and Black and White.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:49 pm

Post by PolarBoy »

Norinel's definition is a good one. The point of having themed sign-ups seperately is to make sure that people know what they're in for when they sign up for a game.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:25 am

Post by shadyforce »

Ideally, everyone ahould be told what they are getting into anyway, since every game, normal or themed, is going to be different.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:54 am

Post by jeep »

In a normal game, you know you won't have to go googling to find role claims etc. Norinel's definition is good.

If a player might have to use google in the game, then it's themed, IMO. Also, highly complex games should be considered theme, IMO.

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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:10 am

Post by PolarBoy »

It's true that every game is different. But what I'm getting at is that there's a basically unified definition of what constitutes a "normal" game, whereas themed represents everything else. Therefore the more "normal" a game is, the less explanation it needs; The less normal, the more explanation required.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:39 am

Post by JereIC »

I think under Norinel's definition, games like In/Dependant and Gay mafia would both be considered themed. I kind of agree with that, I think both those game differed enough from the normal mechanics to be considered Themed. Does anyone else see those games as themed?
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:47 am

Post by Dasquian »

Gay Mafia I didn't even see as being Mafia. The basic principle of Mafia is a large, disorganised rabble vs a small, empowered group of infiltrators. That just wasn't there in Gay Mafia - there was no town to appeal to, no "bad guys" to root out. I/D mafia I think was probably themed on balance. The rule changes seemed significant enough to not count as a Normal game, even though the setting was pretty vanilla.

I have a quick question though - how much leeway is there with original roles in a Normal game? I have one coming up, and there'll be no major depatures from the basic mafia framework but I want to know how far I can depart from the "standard" basic roles.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:55 am

Post by Macros »

had i know Gay mafia was to be so different, i would have moved it too the theme que, since gay mafia i've made it a prequisit that the mod knows they are running a noraml game, what that entails, and if i feel the need i'll request a look at the set up (only if im positive i wont be playing)
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:27 am

Post by modargo »

Dasquian: Since it seems that games such as Intrigue and Macros's MaSiaSTOM have been counted as normal, I would think your game would be normal too. If it's not based off of any specific source material, it seems that it's normal unless there's some big change to the basic rules that needs to be explained beforehand, which is pretty much what Norinel said.

If it has less changes than Intrigue seems to have, it's normal. I see Intrigue as the "edge" of normal games -- if you go much farther it's themed.

Gay "Mafia" was a fundamentally different game than mafia. It's not even themed -- it's nonmafia. Games structured like that should be run in Mish Mash, in my opinion.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:40 pm

Post by jeep »

Intrigue has enough mechanics differences that it should probably be considered themed..

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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:50 am

Post by cuban smoker »

Aww... You're hurting my feelings. It's normal for ME. Look at the other games I've run. Time Travel mini and big one, MUNSCM. You call Intrigue Themed? That's not changed game mechanics. I'll show you changed game mechanics. :P
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:20 am

Post by PolarBoy »

Another good way to look at it is that a themed game is one where you aren't necessarily sure that there will be a lot of interest in it. If one takes into consideration that this is primarily a mafia site, it is fairly obvious that there will always be a good player base for a standard mafia game. On the other hand, not everyone will necessarily want to play a game based on a particular novel or movie or video game, or with some altered mechanic like time travel or highly formalized discussion or even
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Yes, I am aware that this still puts standard vs. themed on a continuum rather than creating a hard distinction between one and the other, and also that this means that the answer to the question "how themed is themed" is still subjective and constantly fluxuating. It's really a case by case judgement.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:53 am

Post by Yoko Kurama »

jeep wrote:In a normal game, you know you won't have to go googling to find role claims etc. Norinel's definition is good.

If a player might have to use google in the game, then it's themed, IMO. Also, highly complex games should be considered theme, IMO.

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So wouldn't arbor mafia be considered theme?
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:40 am

Post by Macros »

i was waiting for this to come up :) ~sits on fence~ (even though i shouldn't)
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:48 am

Post by Dasquian »

I guess it depends on the content of the game. I'm not in it or even vaguely following it, so I guess it's OK for me to comment - it looks like a normal mafia dressed up with a foresty sort of theme so I'd say that it's unthemed. Even though it's... um... themed.

I see "themed" theme games as being based on a specific set of characters, usually with a number of original roles and mechanics woven in to fit the theme, whereas Arbor is just a "flavour". I'd default to Norinel's definition of needing to know something about the game's chosen theme to play it optimally to determine themed-ness :)
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:39 pm

Post by jeep »

IMO, Arbor is themed and should be run that way, but I'm not the one to make that decision, the list mods are.

The mod assures me that the fact that the players are trees have nothing to do with the game other than in how the stories will be written. I have my doubts, but I'm willing to concede to the list mods.

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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:05 am

Post by mneme »

Note that some "themed" games need to be run as normal.

(like, oh, say, <a href="http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=94">NY Confidiential Mini Mafia</a> :)
Though in that game, most roles were normal, aside from the "twist" (a few fairly new roles, like the Reporter, and researcher, but nothing that needed to be explained in advance)
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Fri Apr 09, 2004 8:49 pm

Post by Wacky »

So is Willows_weep's game themed simply because the trees have scientific names attached to them? Like if it was just "a tree - rolename" or something, it wouldn't be?

And Norinel - does that mean Rumours should have been themed, because they could go to rumours? And Intrigue, because of the elections that take place (I think... haven't actually read the game) That seems a bit, well, restrictive, and means that most of New York is in fact, themed.

Since I'm next on the normal game list I think I may as well check with you guys here. The game will be ...(aside: is do wiki tags work yet?).... ExperimentalGame ? RolelessMafia with each "player" being represented by 2 persons who can communicate at any time.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:24 am

Post by cuban smoker »

I guess as one of the list mods I need to thrown in my two cents here.

Some games are obvisouly themed, like DiscWorld, Sherlock Holmes, etc. Some games have obvious game mechanics differences, like Time Travel, Security Council, and TuThred.

Some games are not so obviously themed, like Arbor. Some games have some game mechanics differences, but are not substantial, like Mafia 4 (Restrictive communication), Mafia 9 (Physical town layout that helped to determine night outcomes), Mafia 10 (elections), and Mafia 12 (In/Dependent).

As a board, we have always tried new things in our games, and normal games with one new attribute, in my opinion, should stay in the normal forum. Games that are have roles simply renamed can also stay in the normal forum. Once you start having roles and other changes based on your theme, you need to take it to the theme park. For instance, If I have office supplies mafia, and my erasor is the SK, the flashlight is the cop, and the tape is the doctor, I can still call it normal. Go too far from this, and you might need to be themed.

Your roleless Mafia may still qualify as normal, if that change is all there is too it. It's tough to say though. The funny part is... Macros has inadvertantly put himself in the position where he is supposed to say what is normal and what isn't. Heh. Fortunately, if Macros takes a hard stance, the Free Market awaits you.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:31 am

Post by Macros »

Cadmium is now in the position of saying if it goes CS, keep up with the times dude ;)
if the roles are standard (and if im reading it right, two people play each "player", is that right?) i would consider it normal.
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