chilledtea's Mini Normal Review

[Marquis]

feel free to poke her - I'm still good with this

[chilledtea]

Should I send a PM or something or is that N's responsibility?

[Marquis]

shoot her a PM

[chilledtea]

Well I sent her a PM a couple of days back or so. She hasn't even picked the PM up.

[Marquis]

I'll talk to N and sort something out.

[Marquis]

and/or I'll try to contact her on Skype

[N]

callforjudgement replaces Ether as reviewer

[callforjudgement]

Just to clarify, the current state of the setup is this, right?:

Town: Ascetic, Tracker, 2-shot Bodyguard, 2-shot Vig, 3-shot Gunsmith, 5 VT = 10
Mafia: Goon, Vanilla Cop, Doctor = 3

I'll need some time to think about this before I can approve it (it's a fairly complex setup and not one that I can snap-approve).

Are there up-to-date versions of the rules and role PMs? I'll need to look at those too.

[chilledtea]

Yes, that is the latest update of the setup.

28 contains the newer rules and role PMs and setups, with the exception of x-shot modifiers of tracker, and bodyguard.

[callforjudgement]

I need more thought on the setup (it may well be that it's OK but I need to sleep on it, especially as it's almost 8am and I haven't gone to bed yet). However, I checked your rules and PMs to make sure that they're OK; that takes rather less thought.

I know what you mean in setup rule 6 but it's really awkwardly worded. You probably just want "A Mafia member performing the factional kill cannot perform another action at the same time."

The gunsmith results are reasonable as is. However, I'd prefer to word a blocked investigation (i.e. an investigation on the Ascetic) as "Your action failed.", to avoid potential confusion as to whether "No result" means an action failure or a negative result.

Roles in Normal games can't self-target, and that's unclear from your role PMs (in fact, your Gunsmith results kind-of imply you can). It's likely best to word the roles as "You can check one other person", "selecting one other player", etc.. (This mostly isn't a problem as few of the roles you've listed benefit from self-targeting, but the Mafia Doctor might want to.)

Apart from those, I see no normalcy problems (and all the problems are pretty minor). Sorry for not being able to sign off on the balance immediately.

[chilledtea]

Point taken regarding gunsmith night action. However no result generally means, no result, right? As in you don't get any result? I will say your action failed instead since that is more clear.

Point taken regarding clarity in self-targeting situations.

Setup Rule 6) A mafia member can only carry out his faction kill, or his individual ability, but not both.

[callforjudgement]

OK. First off, I'm going to balance this as though crosskills (Bodyguard saving the Vigilante target, Vigilante and Mafia targeting the same player) are impossible. This is because if either of these events happen, something has gone horribly wrong (and the faction responsible ends up at a disadvantage as a result).

The Vigilante is by far the most critical role to this setup. If they play well, they can kill the players who would be lynched on D2 and D3 (thus gaining town a mislynch), and confirm themself as town by claiming the kills (scum aren't going to want to 1v1 a vigilante for obvious reasons). If they die N1 (or worse, D1), though, or miss a kill, they're basically useless. There are five scenarios in which the vig can fail to fulfil their full potential (lynched D1, lynched D2, shot N1, hit Doctor protection N1, hit Doctor protection D2). Additionally, players have a tendency to misplay vig in practice, making it considerably weaker. As such, we can treat the vig in this setup as approximately as valuable as confirming themselves and one other player. (Note that the Mafia Doctor is a major counter to the vigilante, meaning that they can be punished for choosing correctly. That's kind-of awkward as things go.)

The Gunsmith is in a strange place in this setup, because a result is necessarily going to be somewhat inconclusive. A 3-shot Cop would be fairly powerful, for example, but the 3-shot Gunsmith is considerably weaker. It can get a useless result on the Ascetic or Vigilante (who will claim out of the guilty); it'll get a false negative on the Doctor; and the Vanilla Cop has a pretty easy counterclaim against a Gunsmith guilty. It's hard to know how players are going to handle the role, due to the large amount of modWIFOM involved. It's also likely to be able to use significantly fewer than its three shots; each full day cycle, there are four potential ways it can become useless (being lynched or forced to claim to avoid a lynch; being shot by the Mafia; being shot by the Vigilante; or being found by the Vanilla Cop leading Mafia to shoot it the next day). I'd expect it to average a little less than two investigations, and maybe get a total of one Cop investigation's worth of value out of them.

We'd therefore (according to my current standards for balancing, giving town approximately 3 investigations' worth of night value + one player who can confirm themself by claiming) want to get about one investigation's worth of value from the rest of the setup. We have an Ascetic, who doesn't really help in this regard; a Tracker; and a 2-shot Bodyguard. Neither the Tracker nor the Bodyguard are likely to ever usefully hit, but they'll get an investigation's worth of value if they do (especially if the Bodyguard is good at breadcrumbing). I'm not sure if this is enough; it may well be. (Sadly, the Bodyguard probably has to be limited to two shots in case of an early town claim. Otherwise I'd suggest increasing the count to help balance the setup.)

There are some confounding factors here. If the Mafia Doctor dies early, it makes both the Vigilante and Gunsmith somewhat more valuable, so town's in particularly good shape there. OTOH, there is a very high chance of town messing up the theory in a setup like this one, which rather counteracts that. I'd say it's somewhat swingy, although probably not so much so that it needs a swing warning.

In general, I don't think there's a change to the setup that obviously makes it better-balanced, so I'd be willing to let it run as it is. I'd be willing to consider minor changes, too, but I think those have already been argued out. As such:

/approve

I'll let N know that the setup is ready to run.

[chilledtea]

That's a helpful analysis.

I will repost post 28 with changes to role PMs and information regarding self targeting.

[chilledtea]

General Rules :

1) All site-wide rules apply. In particular, no discussion of ongoing games is allowed.
2) No discussion of this game allowed anywhere outside this game thread (which includes PMs), unless otherwise stated by your Role PM.
3) My Mod color is (#tobedecided). Do not use it.
4) Do not quote your Role PM or any other PMs from the Mod, real or fabricated.
5) Play to your win condition. Do not claim scum with another player regardless of your alignment, there will be consequences.
6) No personal attacks.
7) Do not edit or delete your post, even if you have the ability to do so.
8) No using encrypted text, small text, bright-coloured text, or otherwise make it hard to see what you are writing.
9) Use common sense. There are probably many other rules but I forgot about them. If it feels wrong, please don't do it. If in doubt, contact the Mod.
10) Expressing intent to break a rule, fake breaking a rule, finding loopholes in a rule or encouraging someone to break a rule is equivalent to breaking the rule itself and will suffer similar consequences.

11) Questions relating to roles, either yours, or someone else's or imaginary, will not be entertained in the game thread. If you have a question regarding roles, you have to ask me by PM and it won't be answered in the game thread.

Voting and Lynching rules:

1) Day phases will last 8 days.

2) Night phases last exactly 2 days (48 hours)
3) Use either bold tags or vote tags to vote someone. It is preferable if you vote at the start of a line.
For example :

VOTE : chilledtea

Code: Select all

[b]VOTE : chilledtea[/b]

or
VOTE: chilledtea

Code: Select all

[v]VOTE : chilledtea[/v]

4) Votes to No Lynch are accepted, indicated by

VOTE: No Lynch

or VOTE: No Lynch.
5) To unvote, use the unvote tag (UNVOTE: ) or bold (

UNVOTE :

), but I'll accept VOTE: Unvote as well.
6) Votes in quote tags will not be counted. Please do not put votes in any other tags, they will not be counted either.
7) It takes a strict majority (half of all players plus 1, rounded down) to achieve a lynch. It takes a weak majority (half of all players, rounded up) to No Lynch.
8) If a majority was not met by deadline, a No Lynch will happen.
9) When a lynch has been achieved, it is final, and any further votes or unvotes will not count. Everyone (including the lynched person) may continue to post until I post the lynch scene.
10) When you are dead, do not post, game related or not. This means no ‘bah' posts.
11) If the Mod has made an error in the vote count, please post the error in thread.

Activity and Replacements:

1) 48 hours without a post will incur a prod.
2) If you do not respond to the prod by posting in the main thread within 24 hours, you will be replaced.
3) Three prods and I will also replace you.
4) If a replacement happens near deadline, I may grant an extension. I reserve the right not to give this extension if I feel it's being abused.
5) If a replacement happens at Night, I will freeze the deadline until a replacement is found.

Setup Information:

1) This is a 13 player Normal closed setup. It follows the Normal game guidelines.
2) It is also guaranteed that at least one player is a Vanilla Townie, who will receive the role PM as shown below.
3) Natural Action Resolution is in effect.
4) Please submit Night actions on time. Overdue Night actions will not count, even if I haven't resolved them yet.
5) If you believe the Mod has made an error in resolving effects, please PM me.
6) A mafia member can only carry out his faction kill, or his individual ability, but not both.

Sample Role PM

:

Spoiler:

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

Vanilla Town

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Role PMs :

Town Roles :

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

Tracker

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can track another person to see whom they targeted (if any).
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

3-shot Gunsmith

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can track another person to see if they own a gun. You can use it on only 3 night phases in the game.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are an

Ascetic

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
You cannot get targeted by anyone during the night, except for kills.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

2-shot Bodyguard

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you have the option of selecting one player to be saved from one kill. If successful, you get killed instead of your target. You can use this ability on at most two night phases.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

2-shot Vigilante

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you have the option of selecting one player to be killed. You can only shoot twice in the game.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

Vanilla Town

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
[link for game thread]

Mafia Roles :

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

Mafia Goon

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can talk with your faction members [redacted] and [redacted] in your private thread. You can also carry out the faction kill.
You win when mafia is the only faction that is alive or if nothing can stop that from happening.
[link for game thread]
[link for mafia PT]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

Mafia Vanilla Cop

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can talk with your faction members [redacted] and [redacted] in your private thread. You can also carry out the faction kill. You can check one person to see if they are vanilla or otherwise. You cannot do more than one action on one night.
You win when mafia is the only faction that is alive or if nothing can stop that from happening.
[link for game thread]
[link for mafia PT]

Welcome to Mini Normal [x]!
You are a

Mafia Doctor

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can talk with your faction members [redacted] and [redacted] in your private thread. You can also carry out the faction kill. You can protect one person from getting killed on one night. You cannot do more than one action on one night.
You win when mafia is the only faction that is alive or if nothing can stop that from happening.
[link for game thread]
[link for mafia PT]

[chilledtea]

Initial list of players :

1. Shadow_step
   
2. Thor665
   
3. Elyse
   
4. gerryoat
   
5. Transcend
   
6. karnos
   
7. JarJarDrinks
   
8. Nero Cain
   
9. I Am Innocent
   
10. MichelSableheart
    
11. MariaR
    
12. kraska77
    
13. Blitzkrieg

Randomizing player order :

1. Thor665
   
2. Transcend
   
3. karnos
   
4. gerryoat
   
5. Elyse
   
6. Shadow_step
   
7. JarJarDrinks
   
8. I Am Innocent
   
9. MichelSableheart
   
10. Nero Cain
    
11. kraska77
    
12. MariaR
    
13. Blitzkrieg

Roles :

Vanilla Town (1-5)
Tracker (6)
3-shot Gunsmith (7)
Ascetic (8)
2-shot BG (9)
2-shot Vig (10)
Mafia Goon (11)
Mafia Vanilla Cop (12)
Mafia Doctor (13)

Players - Roles Mapping :

1. Thor665 - 9 (2-shot Bodyguard)
   
2. Transcend - 8 (Ascetic)
   
3. karnos - 5 (Vanilla Town)
   
4. gerryoat - 4 (Vanilla Town)
   
5. Elyse - 3 (Vanilla Town)
   
6. Shadow_step - 12 (Mafia Vanilla Cop)
   
7. JarJarDrinks - 7 (3-shot Gunsmith)
   
8. I Am Innocent - 6 (Tracker)
   
9. MichelSableheart - 13 (Mafia Doctor)
   
10. Nero Cain - 10 (2-shot Vigilante)
    
11. kraska77 - 1 (Vanilla Town)
    
12. MariaR- 2 (Vanilla Town)
    
13. Blitzkrieg - 11 (Mafia Goon)

[chilledtea]

So, I think I haven't stated it anywhere here but I planned on not allowing day chat for the scum team. Should I specify that in the rules?

[callforjudgement]

If you do allow daytalk without an Encryptor, that has to be specified.
The opposite doesn't technically have to be specified (players who have the Normal guidelines memorized would know that there's no daytalk upon seeing no rule talking about it), but something like "Mafia do not have the ability to privately communicate during the day, except via means of a power role." wouldn't be out of place.

[Marquis]

"Mafia do not have the ability to privately communicate during the day, except via means of a power role."

echoing support for this.

[Cephrir]

^

[chilledtea]

Okay, putting that in the ruleset.

[chilledtea]

Town Roles :

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

Tracker

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can track another person to see whom they targeted (if any).
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

3-shot Gunsmith

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can track another person to see if they own a gun. You can use it on only 3 night phases in the game.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are an

Ascetic

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
You cannot get targeted by anyone during the night, except for kills.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

2-shot Bodyguard

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you have the option of selecting one player to be saved from one kill. If successful, you get killed instead of your target. You can use this ability on at most two night phases.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

2-shot Vigilante

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you have the option of selecting one player to be killed. You can only shoot twice in the game.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

Vanilla Town

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243

Mafia Roles :

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

Mafia Goon

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can talk with your faction members Shadow_step and MichelSableheart in your private thread. You can also carry out the faction kill.
You win when mafia is the only faction that is alive or if nothing can stop that from happening.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243
Mafia PT - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=68249

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

Mafia Vanilla Cop

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can talk with your faction members Blitzkrieg and MichelSableheart in your private thread. You can also carry out the faction kill. You can check one person to see if they are vanilla or otherwise. You cannot do more than one action on one night.
You win when mafia is the only faction that is alive or if nothing can stop that from happening.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243
Mafia PT - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=68249

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

Mafia Doctor

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can talk with your faction members Blitzkrieg and Shadow_step in your private thread. You can also carry out the faction kill. You can protect one person from getting killed on one night. You cannot do more than one action on one night.
You win when mafia is the only faction that is alive or if nothing can stop that from happening.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243
Mafia PT - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=68249

[chilledtea]

Small change about requirement of confirmation.

Town Roles :

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

Tracker

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can track another person to see whom they targeted (if any).
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243

Please reply back with your role and alignment for confirmation.

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

3-shot Gunsmith

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can track another person to see if they own a gun. You can use it on only 3 night phases in the game.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243

Please reply back with your role and alignment for confirmation.

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are an

Ascetic

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
You cannot get targeted by anyone during the night, except for kills.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243

Please reply back with your role and alignment for confirmation.

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

2-shot Bodyguard

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you have the option of selecting one player to be saved from one kill. If successful, you get killed instead of your target. You can use this ability on at most two night phases.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243

Please reply back with your role and alignment for confirmation.

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

2-shot Vigilante

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you have the option of selecting one player to be killed. You can only shoot twice in the game.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243

Please reply back with your role and alignment for confirmation.

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

Vanilla Town

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town member is alive.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243

Please reply back with your role and alignment for confirmation.

Mafia Roles :

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

Mafia Goon

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can talk with your faction members Shadow_step and MichelSableheart in your private thread. You can also carry out the faction kill.
You win when mafia is the only faction that is alive or if nothing can stop that from happening.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243
Mafia PT - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=68249

Please reply back with your role and alignment for confirmation.

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

Mafia Vanilla Cop

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can talk with your faction members Blitzkrieg and MichelSableheart in your private thread. You can also carry out the faction kill. You can check one person to see if they are vanilla or otherwise. You cannot do more than one action on one night.
You win when mafia is the only faction that is alive or if nothing can stop that from happening.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243
Mafia PT - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=68249

Please reply back with your role and alignment for confirmation.

Welcome to Mini Normal 1829!
You are a

Mafia Doctor

.
You get to vote for a lynch every day phase in which you are alive.
During night phase, you can talk with your faction members Blitzkrieg and Shadow_step in your private thread. You can also carry out the faction kill. You can protect one person from getting killed on one night. You cannot do more than one action on one night.
You win when mafia is the only faction that is alive or if nothing can stop that from happening.
Game Thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68243
Mafia PT - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=68249

Please reply back with your role and alignment for confirmation.

[chilledtea]

Well, it was all going so well.

I need a little advise on how to handle a situation - transcend has been accused of personally attacking other players by at least 2 players if not more. One player has made an ultimatum - either transcend gets force replaced or him.

Not sure what to do here. The "no personal attacks" is a rule that is almost a request and now at least 2 people are requesting transcend's replacement.

[Marquis]

i don't want it to be like i'm telling you how to run the game but posts like these

i really hate insufferable cunts like you that deathtunnel me JJD.

i have justified my reasons for lynching michel, you're just a fucking ignorant twat.

are not acceptable. in particular calling others c***s and t***s as that's language that is intended to offend and absolutely unnecessary on the site. there's no reason why you shouldn't force replace him for those alone, especially if multiple others are at the least uncomfortable with his conduct.

[Marquis]

yeah "no personal attacks" is in your rules, so follow up on that