Mafiascum.net

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:28 am**

Shadow_step wrote:1. Will be ready yes.
2. 13 players
3. Xkfyu will be my back up mod
4. No previous modding exp and no current commitments

Shadow_step wrote:The setup is

Mafia
Rb
Rolecop(2 shot)
JOAT(Ninja, Strongman, Reloader)[All 1 shot]

Town
Strong Willed Neapolitan(2 shot)
Friendly Neighbor(1 shot)
Follower(3 shot)
Watcher(1 shot)
Rolestopper
5 VTs

I feel the setup maybe ever so slightly scum sided(?)
Neapolitan can clear VTs and conf town and FN can self clear.
Maybe making the Rolestopper a doc will help but I hate docs
Or adding a low utility role like FVendor?

Shadow_step wrote:Sending this again cause I effed up in the previous one

Role PMs

Mafia 2 shot Role Cop

Spoiler:
You are a 2 shot Mafia Role Cop
Win Conditions:
 You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).
Abilities:
 You share a Private Topic with your fellow scum; [names].
 You have a factional night-kill meaning that each night one of you may night-kill a player.
 You may target a player to be inspected, thus discovering their role name. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing their role name. If for any reason your ability fails, you will receive No result.

Mafia Roleblocker

Spoiler:
You are a Mafia Roleblocker
Win Conditions:
 You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).
Abilities:
 You share a Private Topic with your fellow scum; [names].
 You have a factional night-kill meaning that each night one of you may night-kill a player.
 Once per night you may target a player, thus blocking all role traits for the current night phase.

Mafia JOAT

Spoiler:
You are a Mafia JOAT
Win Conditions:
 You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).
Abilities:
 You share a Private Topic with your fellow scum; [names].
 You have a factional night-kill meaning that each night one of you may night-kill a player.
 1 shot Ninja - If you take the night-kill you won't return a result to [trackers and similar roles].
 1 shot Strongman - If you take the factional night-kill it cannot be prevented.
 1 shot Reloader(self target only) - If the target have used up his one-shot ability, the target gets to use it again.

Town 3 shot Follower

Spoiler:
You are a Town 3 shot Follower
Win Conditions:
 You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.
Abilities:
 Each night you may target a player to be inspected, thus finding out what action they took that night but not who they targeted. If for any reason your ability fails, you will receive No result.

Town 1 shot Watcher

Spoiler:
You are a Town 1 shot Watcher
Win Conditions:
 You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive
Abilities:
 On one night you may target a player to be watched, thus discovering if that player was targeted in the same night phase and if somebody did who. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing the names(s) of the players. If for any reason your ability fails, you will receive No result.

TOWN 2 shot NEAPOLITAN

Spoiler:
You are a Town Strong Willed Neapolitan.

Win Conditions:
 You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.
Abilities:
Strong Willed – You night action cannot be roleblocked in any way.
Each night, you may give me the name of a player. You will learn whether they are a Vanilla Townie or Not Vanilla. If for any reason your ability fails, you will receive No result.

Town Rolestopper

Spoiler:
You are a town rolestopper
Win Conditions:
 You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:
Every night you may target someone to rolestop, causing all actions performed on them to fail.

Town 1 shot Friendly Neighbor

Spoiler:
You are a Town 1 shot Friendly Neighbor
Win Conditions:
 You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:
You can target a player at Night to tell them that they are Town. The target will receive a message saying that the you are Town.

Vanilla Townie

Spoiler:
You are a Vanilla Townie
Win Conditions:
 You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.
Abilities:
 You have no abilities, your strength is your vote and intellect.

Shadow_step wrote:Opening Post

Game Rules

General Rules
1. The site-wide rules apply. Read them, know them, love them, do not break them.
2. Play to win.
3. Do not edit or delete your posts in this thread. If there is a problem with a post, such as incorrect formatting, ask me to fix it for you.
4. Do not quote communications outside the game thread, including role PMs, quicktopics, etc., in the game thread. This specifically includes PM timestamps. Paraphrasing is allowed. If in doubt, ask.
5. Do not use cryptography, invisible text, tiny text, or the like.
6. Do not use any form of provable randomness. Claiming you rolled dice and acting on that is fine. Using dice tags is not.
7. Do not impersonate or pretend to be the moderator. If I edit a post, I will use this color. Do not use this color.
8. Unless the moderator has specifically told you it is allowed, do not talk about this game outside of this game thread until it is completed.
9. Do not bring outside factors into this game. This includes, among other things, making bets, promises of real life rewards, etc.
10. Claiming scum by yourself is fine. Claiming scum with others is not, regardless of the truth of this claim.
11. Pretending to break a rule will be treated the same as breaking the rule.
12. We're all here to have fun. Tempers may flare, but avoid personal attacks and keep it civil.
13. Breaking one of these rules may, at my discretion, result in a modkill. If you are modkilled, you will become a Neutral Survivor, and thus automatically lose. Modkilling may or may not end the game day.
14. I reserve the right to change the rules. Rule changes will be posted in thread.
15) Whilst I am perfect in all things I do, it is possible for you to fail to understand my perfection. It may therefore appear as if I have made a mistake. If you think I have made a mistake feel free to point it out via PM and I will clarify it so that you see I was right all along

Activity Rules
1. If a player goes two days (48 real life hours) without posting, they may be prodded at my discretion, or upon being asked by another player. Prods will be announced in thread.
2. If a player does not respond to their prod within one day (24 real life hours), is prodded three times in the same game-day, or five times in total within the game, they may be force-replaced at my discretion.
3. If you will be V/LA, please alert me in the thread or via PM.
4. Each game day will have a deadline of 10 days. In the event deadline is reached before a lynch has occurred, there will be No Lynch.
6. Each night will have a deadline of two days (48 hours).
7. If a player has a night action, but does not submit a choice before deadline, they will perform no action.
8. I may extend deadlines in the event replacements must be found, at my discretion. This will be announced in thread.

Voting Rules
1. Votes must be at the beginning of a new line and bolded, and in the format of VOTE: Player name or VOTE: Playername. Abbreviations, missing punctuation, and misspellings will be accepted as long as it is obvious to me who is being voted for. If I perceive it as a vote, it counts as a vote.
2. Unvoting is nice, but is not necessary.
3. Once a majority of votes is reached (# of players / 2 + 1, rounded down), that person is lynched.
4. All living players, including the lynchee, may continue to post until I lock the thread.
5. If you are dead, that is it. Do not post. Not even a "Bah" post.

Setup Rules

1. This is a 13 player Normal closed setup. It follows the Normal game guidelines.
2. Mafia have day talk in this game.
3. A Mafia member may perform the NK and their Night Action at the same time.
4. Natural Action Resolution is in effect.
5. At least 1 player will get the Vanilla Townie role PM, which looks like this:

Spoiler:
Welcome, [PlayerName], you are a Vanilla Townie.

Abilities: You have no abilities, your strength is your vote and intellect.

Win Conditions: You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:28 am**

Villagery pop in

Off the cuff, 5 town prs vs three wolf prs seems scum sided by MS norms unless town prs are strong (and they're not in this case at current glance).

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:43 am**

This set-up does not pass normalcy. Neither the Strong-willed modifier and the JoaT's Reloader power are whitelisted and you are only allowed one new/variant role in a mini. The whole set-up seems very busy - maybe drop the Mafia Roleblocker and the 3-shot Follower, that would also help with balance.

Do you know what results a Follower should get in a Normal?

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:29 pm**

I don't think the SW modifier is blacklisted as such?

About the follower, I think that's pretty straight forward a killing action gives killing result, role cop/Neapolitan will give investigative result.
Not sure what result a TFN would give which was a question I was meant to ask.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:36 pm**

In post 1, mhsmith0 wrote:Villagery pop in

Off the cuff, 5 town prs vs three wolf prs seems scum sided by MS norms unless town prs are strong (and they're not in this case at current glance).

Fn can self clear, follower can catch the rb/joat if the kill isn't a ninja kill.
Neapolitan can get two clears if he targets VTs. Watcher is a pretty strong role itself?

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:37 pm**

Rolestopper can stop kills.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:45 pm**

Simple is better, as has been conveyed already.
I can't in good conscience ever allow an all-PR scumteam to pass review (it's absurdly overpowered), and even a two-PR scumteam is overkill. Towns need some level of "base" PRs, and scum do NOT need a counter to every existing town PR.
But on the other hand: towns--while inherently dumb--are not this incompetent. Neapolitan is a cop-lite. Watcher is one of the strongest town PRs in existence. Rolestopper functions as a stronger doctor, shutting down the mafia's PRs/kill. Friendly Neighbor is a confirmation role, IC lite. They hold a lot of modifiers, sure, yes. But I don't think, even with these modifiers, they are something I'd be comfortable letting through.

Plus, game right now is ridiculously swingy.

I'd recommend getting rid of the scum roleblocker for a start (that's quite literally the strongest scum role in existence we haven't blacklisted), and then one of the other scum roles as well.
On the town side of things, I'd recommend just having three ungated roles, or four roles with one or two of them slightly gated.
Friendly Neighbor, Follower, Voyeur, and then something like a 2-shot rolestopper I could maybe see as more balanced: weaker information roles, with some protection to give them support.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:55 pm**

Lol I think I've given all the scum PRs because being a goon is pretty boring.

Let me think about this.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:01 pm**

In post 6, mastin2 wrote:Friendly Neighbor, Follower, Voyeur, and then something like a 2-shot rolestopper I could maybe see as more balanced: weaker information roles, with some protection to give them support.

Further thought, if you went with this, a scum 2-shot rolecop would work well. To my eye, that works REALLY well.

As I said, the roleblocker is a ridiculously strong role I heavily recommend against using.
The JOAT's powers are a ninja and a strongman. Strongman is ridiculously strong, and I consider it up there in roleblockers in strength: even gated as a one-shot, it might be a bit much. Also, given that this is a follower (a type of tracker), a ninja is gigantic "fuck you" to the town: tracker-type roles are only of marginal use to towns anyway. They require precise targeting to be of any use, and are best when there's only one scum left. A ninja removes their utilization altogether. (The ninja is mostly to counter the strength of a watcher, just like a godfather is for a cop.) So, I'd recommend against the JOAT.

But with a 2-shot rolecop, the scum have a chance to gain information about the town's PRs, yet not so overwhelmingly so that they are able to instantly shut them down. The 2-shot rolestopper means that the scum can, at worst, let the town gain a mislynch if both rolestop shots block a kill. The town can get some minor confirmation from the voyeur and the follower, including some potential innocents, but the only possible guilty is a follower tracking the kill.

It's simple, but it'd work. About as little swing as possible, town has some strength, scum aren't defenseless, yet scum aren't in possession of perfect counters to the town PRs.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:03 pm**

Shift RB to Joat
1 shot[strongman, ninja, RB]
Make RB -> vengeful

Remove follower and FN, add a 2 shot masonizer.
Rolestopper will have to be X shot now I think.
Remove SW modifier from Neapolitan

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:12 pm**

In post 9, Shadow_step wrote:Make RB -> vengeful

I believe that scum vigs are blacklisted, and while a vengekill may not be the same as a vig kill, it can be arguably even worse, and I do not think this would go over well, so I would have to say 'no' to this.

Also, as I previously said: you're giving the scum the strongest possible roles in the game.
They don't need the help.

Strongman is ridiculously strong, especially up against weakened protective roles.
Ninja is ridiculously strong, especially up against tracker roles and/or a weakened watcher. I'd have no problem with a gated ninja against a full watcher, but a ninja in ANY capacity (even 1x) against a gated watcher is a big fat "no" to me.
Roleblocker is a ridiculously strong role, able to shut down any of the town's roles, save for the target of a rolestop.

Also, a masonizer should absolutely not be two-shot. Plus, being in the same game as a Neapolitan is another "no".
Three roles with two of them as super-strong would be okay to me if they didn't particularly work well together, but Neapolitan and masonizer have such ridiculous synchronicity that it'd be hard to make the town lose a game with them both in it, even if they were both gated.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:14 pm**

Vengeful is a free kill for mafia, to punish mass claiming if there is any.
I could go for something else like 1 shot PGO instead. But like I really want an all PR mafia team.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:19 pm**

In that case we can remove the Neapolitan and add a full tracker.
Increase the watcher's shot to two.

2 shot masonizer is too much? 1 shot then?

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:26 pm**

In post 11, Shadow_step wrote:But like I really want an all PR mafia team.

If you want an all-PR mafia team, we're talking things like:
1-shot rolecop
1-shot roleblocker
1-shot ninja

Yes. One shot each, of weak scum roles.

I'm dead serious.
Anything more than that is overkill.

There's a difference between making a game fun, and making a game be unbalanced. Too much power is the latter.

Which is why I keep saying: simpler would be better. You don't need to have complexity to make a fun game. A functional game is ten times more enjoyable than a dysfunctional game, and I guarantee you that if you try to make the game 'interesting' with swingy roles, it's going to be dysfunctional.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:50 pm**

I tend to prefer closer to vanilla games myself, fwiw. I'll +1 to Mastin here; a bunch of strong scum roles means that you need to have a bunch of strong town roles, and then you basically get a game that's really heavy on PR reliance and night actions, which gives people something to do but I think gets away from the typical spirit of "normal" games.

I might also suggest an encryptor as a mafia PR if you don't mind a passive pr, but that's a YMMV thing.

Wrt town roles, I'd actually suggest full neighborizer instead of 2-shot masonizer; neighborizer is a less swingy role (won't fail or die if targeting scum, won't suddenly crate multiple confirmed town if it succeeds) that demands better play from the people in the hood instead of easier mech clears.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:33 pm**

The thing is I feel, 9/10 times its impossible to nail the whole scum team by just day play. No matter how good town plays or how bad scum play. In that scenario I think town is better off having more PRs.

I'll rethink my setup

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:53 pm**

So I think it's fine to have more town PR's that are generally crappy PR's, but if you do that scum should be close to vanilla. More scum power = more town power.

Can you restate what your currently intended town vs scum setup currently is? I want to make sure I'm on the same page.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:21 pm**

I'm thinking of this currently.
I'll drop the ninja

Mafia
1 shot Strongman
Joat[Rolecop + RB]
Neighboriser

Town
Vanilla cop
1 shot watcher
Rolestopper(limited shots) probably 3
Motivator(non consecutive)
Desperado
Voyeur(limited shots) probably 3
4 VTs

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:23 pm**

Vanilla cop will get no fake clears because the whole mafia team has PRs.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:27 pm**

six town PR's too many. five at most. i do like the scum neighborizer concept though. maybe make it even night watcher and kill the voyeur? even night watcher means that it's a slot that has to stay under the radar for two nights otherwise can't help, and it's fairly likely that he'll only get one use anyway. if even night watcher is able to survive for two useful peeks that's just really good play.

maybe do odd night rolestopper / even night neighborizer? I'm not super familiar with motivator and balancing that one; what do you think mastin?

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:28 pm**

Or I can make the Watcher 2 shot, remove the motivator and the desparado, add a 1 shot vig and IC instead. Make the JOAT 1 shot BP.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:33 pm**

Yeah mafia neigboriser can be non consecutive actually

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:38 pm**

so are you down to five town pr's? I think that's basically the max that's considered normal.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:39 pm**

1-shot vig not necessarily bad by itself, but it's in many cases negative EV (since it takes away a mislynch if it misses), so would need to be carefully balanced against the rest of the setup.

Posted: **Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:40 pm**

and i do really like the scum neighborizer (presuming ok with normal), an unusual role that makes game more interesting

Mafiascum.net

Shadow_step Mini Normal Review

Shadow_step Mini Normal Review