Scummies Nomination Thread 2017

[Alisae]

Why is alisae nomination for rising star deleted?

Go contact Zor and tell him to fix it?

[Ellibereth]

I actually talked to some people about this recently.

A pretty big problem with mafia as whole is that there's very little consensus on what "good" or "bad" play is. Like for a lot of things there are people objectively better at some things than other but the lack of metric for it makes it hard to get a sense of whats actually "good" and "bad".

See Chess, Starcraft, League, Sports, (any other game) Players- there are Heros to emulate and almost everyone agrees they're good and that they're good at particular things. We don't have anything close to that. When I first started I found a few people I thought was good and read a shitton of their games and tried to emulate them. Some stuff stuck and some didn't. Some of things I was copying I now think aren't that good, others I think are but I'm just not good at.

But yeah - it would ideally be easier to have visible improvement lines, goalposts, and models but that would require some sort of consensus on a bunch of stuff that would be tough.

[Ellibereth]

That was far too many serious posts without some memery from me feelsbadman.

[Alisae]

That was far too many posts without some memery from me feelsbadman,

What if those posts where you weren't memeing were actually memes

[Ginngie]

LUV that literally used to be an award they got rid of

Are you talking about the best town scummy?

That's not exactly what LUV is describing but yeah - there used to be a scummy for the town that worked together best in a game.

No the teacher one

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Yeah there’s none of that. Just what is considered optimal or most favorable and then whatever deviates from that norm.

Think it’s all player specific though. Meaning like if we had some way of knowing what each of us are good at as each alignment, we know whether one of us played an awful game, just okay, or a really good game.

[mhsmith0]

That was far too many serious posts without some memery from me feelsbadman.

That's because you overdosed on meme'ing in discord wolf chat in our last game together

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I think a teacher award can be like brought back but solely for like the Newbie queue. Might motivate people to IC.

[Alisae]

I think a teacher award can be like brought back but solely for like the Newbie queue. Might motivate people to IC.

I don't even think THAT would motivate people

[Ellibereth]

LUV that literally used to be an award they got rid of

Are you talking about the best town scummy?

That's not exactly what LUV is describing but yeah - there used to be a scummy for the town that worked together best in a game.

No the teacher one

I might be blind, is it here? viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21324

EDIT: Yeah there's an IC one. No general teacher one though I think.

[Ellibereth]

Yeah there’s none of that. Just what is considered optimal or most favorable and then whatever deviates from that norm.

Think it’s all player specific though. Meaning like if we had some way of knowing what each of us are good at as each alignment, we know whether one of us played an awful game, just okay, or a really good game.

I mean what is considered optimal or most favorable is already unclear and pretty heavily debated I think? I think if you asked a bunch of us to the list the top n players at some specific skill on site we'd all end up with drastically different lists.

I mean like anything else there's probably a wide skill range across the site, but it's hard for someone to tell the difference between some one better than them vs. A LOT better than (replacing better with worse there probably holds true too) and I think most of us just have vague notions of us being roughly better at some vague thing than the average playerlist they're in (or something along those lines).

[Ellibereth]

That was far too many serious posts without some memery from me feelsbadman.

That's because you overdosed on meme'ing in discord wolf chat in our last game together

MORALSUPPORTBERETH

[mhsmith0]

A pretty big problem with mafia as whole is that there's very little consensus on what "good" or "bad" play is. Like for a lot of things there are people objectively better at some things than other but the lack of metric for it makes it hard to get a sense of whats actually "good" and "bad".

idk, i feel like there are a pretty decent list of things that most people should just consider good play

Any alignment
Have the charisma and thread influence to avoid getting lynched
Have the charisma and thread influence to get the people you want lynched to be lynched

Town
Have good reads
Have the flexibility to react to new information in a productive manner
Encourage productive town behavior (wide discussions, wide focus, low toxicity, putting useful information into the thread without spamming it up and making it unreadable, etc)
etc

Scum
Have bad alignment reads but in a way that doesn't make you outed
Have good PR reads
Find ways to motivate/encourage your team to work together productively
Encourage (subtly or not so subtly) BAD town behavior (overly narrow board focus, making topics you don't want to discuss go away, [I feel like high toxicity, while generally proscum, isn't something I'd really recommend as good scum play *shrugs*], limiting useful information and/or having the thread just spam to badly the useful information gets drowned out)
etc

Note: villagers with high charisma/influence and really shitty reads are absolute poison to a functional town, but in GENERAL it's better to be able to influence things in the direction you want

[Creature]

It's a crime there isn't any single game town award.

[mhsmith0]

It's a crime there isn't any single game town award.

People who want to see more scummies categories should volunteer to be scummies judges and make it more feasible to have more categories get a sufficiently large amount of attention

[Creature]

One single scum and 3p can gain awards over a single game while town can't whether individually or collectively.

[Ellibereth]

r.e. smith's list.

Looks roughly good? Only skimmed. I might add or takeaway a thing or two but yeah syre.

I think what's missing is something about the relative importance of those skills. Another extreme chess example - you can be a strategic monster but if you miss 1 or 2 move tactics you're going to lose a lot more games than if you can calculate tactics but suck strategically. I have my own thoughts on this mafia-wise but I'm not sure if they're right.

For example I think general scumread accuracy + charisma is near the bottom of important townskills for most people to have while I think a healthy amount of people would probably have it near the top?

[Alisae]

Dear Prof. mhsmith0
What do I do if I get "toneread" as scum in all of my towngames when I am really obvtown and have good reads?

Thanks, Alisae

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Eh not really

Optimal town play

- Don’t lurk
- Don’t gambit
- Don’t spam or shit post
- Don’t antagonize others
- Be open and share your thoughts
- Talk about your reads
- Attempt to game solve
- Encourage teamwork

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Like I think a lot of people feel those are optimal things but there are plenty of good town players who don’t really follow that

[Ellibereth]

Yeah, see, I disagree with like at least half of those? And it's hard to judge which of us is right.

[KidAmn]

Mary played an exceptional game and it’s a crime if they don’t win the serial killer award

All 3p wins rely on some luck so fuck those salty town members who don’t want them winning

Alright lemme explain you a thing

N1 they lucked into the same kill as the Vig, N2 they went for the BP Bodyguard who never announced taking the hit, N3 they were jailkept but because of the previous 2 nights of fuckery the number of kills stayed the same - so town had no reason to believe there was a 3rd party, not through any conscious choice of Mary, but blind luck. Idling the kill the first 3 nights intentionally to hide their existence is a smart play that might be worthy of an award; getting caught in a perfect storm and dropped on a tropical island isn't. In addition, the only investigative role was Gunsmith (myself) so we had absolutely no way to find an SK even if we had reason to believe they existed post-N3 - which we had no reason to. Hell, I even checked Mary the night she shot me.

Also, this coming from someone who replaced out of that Large Normal as soon as they got pushed having spent most of their time in the game posting nearly zero content apart from AtE nonsense is hilarious.

[Alisae]

OH LETS SEE
I LURK IN GAMES I DON'T CARE ABOUT
I GAMBIT ALMOST EVERY GAME
I USED TO SPAM AND STILL SHITPOST
IT CAN BE ARGUED I ANTAGONIZE PEOPLE

And the other points I do
Does that mean I am a shit player luv

[Creature]

Eh not really

Optimal town play

- Don’t lurk
- Don’t gambit
- Don’t spam or shit post
- Don’t antagonize others
- Be open and share your thoughts
- Talk about your reads
- Attempt to game solve
- Encourage teamwork

Actually it should be just "help town win the game"

As long you give good results for town and don't be a nuisance, it's already optimal.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I don’t even believe in half of those so no lol

But what’s good and what’s optimal I think are different things