Mafiascum.net

Explain?

Make a points system and assign twists points values, so instead of eyeballing it we have like

1-5: basically TV Survivor
5-10: Got some game specific mechanics and probably a few swaps
10-15: game specific mechanics, possibly one or two bastard elements
15-20: Basically Arkham

In post 51, Shadoweh wrote:Make a points system and assign twists points values, so instead of eyeballing it we have like

1-5: basically TV Survivor

ha

Yeah TV Survivor is getting a lot more twist-heavy for stupid reasons.

Maybe make your base level, like "This season is like a pre-HvV seasons," because post-HvV is probably my line where seasons start getting stupid (RI, frequent captaining seasons). Maybe the line is better put at Second Chances, since post-SC seems to have ramped up even further.

On Borobudur: I think it was a really brilliant challenge. Part of the challenge was figuring out your wincon (fun fact: I actually "figured out" the wrong wincon. I went down every possible path because I just happened to find the correct path last. I originally thought you had to go to every person from every other person). If the challenge had a weirder/less obvious wincon, and you had to find it basically by stumbling into it, then I would be like "yeah that was a problem," but I don't think it was onerously hard to figure out "guess shit until it works, diagram what you're doing so as to not do shit multiple times in a row."

On twists: We need to figure this shit out preferably sooner rather than later. Like, it probably just makes sense to just set a scale and people can disagree with the scale on a personal level if they so desire (for example: I think the mafia rules for "normal" are bullshit because roles that require the mod to lie to the players are implicitly bastard, even if they are "common," but I am still very much aware that normal games on MS can have godfathers and that that is part of the standard). Like, this isn't the first game where this has happened (oh hi MLS), and it's probably important as we make more of an effort on a meta-level to run a wide range of types of games to counteract the recent trend towards heavy-twist/bastard.

glad to see so many borobudur stans in the thread, please come along to our borobudur stan club igm next tuesday at the rooty hill rsl

In post 53, BROseidon wrote:I am still very much aware that normal games on MS can have godfathers and that that is part of the standard).

I don't think you are, because they can't.

Miller still exists there though.

That finally got removed? It was definitely a thing for the longest time.

Millers are less bad but still dumb.

The most sensible thing to do would be to just score the survivor seasons for a comparison.

Hey you said you did soccer as Booty Ka, we never got proof of that!

I need to smize better.

Maybe have the LSG listmod reviewing it add a point for each individual thing or mechanic (or have a sliding scale;Returnee Twist? 3 points. Hidden idol? 1 point. Tribe swap? 1 point. Second tribe swap? 2 points, etc)

But I honestly think it's pretty involved for something that should be a common sense thing?

PSV would IMO be the best example of a "normal" game in our current site climate. Only twists were tribe swaps. And I think our site has come to expect 3 swaps per game at this point.

Curious what Drench meant by modular

PSV had tribes picked by the worst voted players, two double votes, two interesting tribe swaps and a bonus vacation. It felt very organic because everything was being explained as it happened, there weren't many surprises. It wasn't twisty for a site game! It's twisty say, compared to the first 15 seasons of survivor. That's the kind of comparison I mean.

Ehh but aren't a handful of items pretty par for the course

Yeah, it should definitely be on the Listmod to scale it since there's always going to be an inherent mod bias. I like the scale of 1-20 or 1-10 idea, but if we implement this we need to go through past games and score them.

I think what irked me about the twist-heaviness was this sentence:

with a few twists but nothing completely out of left field.

The thing with Mafia game normalcy is that the Notmal queue actually lets the mod implement exactly one non-Normal rule if they so choose. There might need to be some sort of parallel to that if we go for a normal/non-normal/bastard thing.

Congratulations bro!

In post 47, xofelf wrote:

In post 39, xRECKONERx wrote:#2- We really need a better way to classify games. It doesn't have to spell out every twist, sure. But I think there are very distinct levels in Survivor that people should be able to anticipate. In Mafia games, people label their games in various ways. "Bastard" means "oh fuck here I go with some bullshit". "Role madness" means the game will be more focused on role interaction than day deduction. "Normal" means a game that features a set list of mechanics. I'm not saying we have to be so granular, but there was a misunderstanding here between what the game entailed versus what the game ended up being. When I signed up for Arkham City, I knew it would be buckwild and expected it. When I ran #2016, we told people that there would be some wild mechanics regarding delegates. Here, I had no way to anticipate three tribe swaps PLUS returnee twist PLUS 16 items entering the game at merge. I just think it'd be nice for people to know what to expect. It's possible I'm operating in a vacuum and that shit doesn't matter to other people, so I would welcome feedback.

The Mish Mash mods have already started discussing some things with this and will be getting feedback from the community in order to help define what fits where. One of the bigger problems is that what one person considers heavily twisty isn't something that everyone across the board can agree is extremely twisty. It's easy to put games like the Arkham games and Doctor Who solidly in bastard/heavy twist territory, and games like Nexus and 2016 into very twist. But when it comes to games like Pretty Super Vanilla, Hogwarts, or Eon there isn't clear agreement on whether these are low twist games or not. So the plan is to figure out a standardized labeling system so that people know what to expect when they sign up for the games and we don't fall into this sort of problem again.

Thats why you have clear parameters. The reason no one has a clear idea is because theres no way to have this information.

I think we all thought thats what the mandatory reviewer was indicating. 17 items in a merge is not low twist. Items are not low twist. Tribe swaps every two rounds not low twist.

People have different definitions...but so what? how is that relevant

its a pre immediate problem. Civ and MLS have both really bamboozled players and made them upset.

I think another major problem is lack of balance with items

In gc we saw how 3 idols can break the game. Ms has been towing much more dangerous lines for a while now with all the items injected into the games

I didn't get the chance to play because of real life stuff that happened, but I did want to thank the mods
For being very helpful and assisting me during that time and pulling me out when I couldn't focus on it for the real life thing that happened.

I thought Borobudur was a frustrating but very interesting challenge. I definitely enjoy the idea of it but my biggest issue with it was that it wasn't clear how we were being judged. As I was playing I had to angleshoot about what would make more sense for the mods to judge it by, number of moves or time. That definitely had an impact on how I played it because I spent extra time trying to optimize my paths with the map that I had of it. I think it was fine for us to go in not knowing it was a maze, but I think we should've known how it was being judged.

In post 69, DrumBeats wrote:I thought Borobudur was a frustrating but very interesting challenge. I definitely enjoy the idea of it but my biggest issue with it was that it wasn't clear how we were being judged. As I was playing I had to angleshoot about what would make more sense for the mods to judge it by, number of moves or time. That definitely had an impact on how I played it because I spent extra time trying to optimize my paths with the map that I had of it. I think it was fine for us to go in not knowing it was a maze, but I think we should've known how it was being judged.

yeah, this was bullshit. challenge was weird but fine, lack of judging criteria is a major no-no

And on the items, the big thing was just that the auction was so over saturated with them. We could've had just 8 then, and it'd have made it much better imo. The issue with 16 was that a lot of it came down to luck on who was bidding where on the 8 mystery prizes. Yes Alex had a ton of money, but he also got lucky that people didn't bid heavy on the mystery prizes he was going for. When you have 8 mystery boxes that contain such drastically different rewards (pizza vs an idol), it's a crapshoot. At 8 items, every item is likely to be bid somewhat heavily on, so it stops one person from sweeping them.

In post 70, hiplop wrote:

In post 69, DrumBeats wrote:I thought Borobudur was a frustrating but very interesting challenge. I definitely enjoy the idea of it but my biggest issue with it was that it wasn't clear how we were being judged. As I was playing I had to angleshoot about what would make more sense for the mods to judge it by, number of moves or time. That definitely had an impact on how I played it because I spent extra time trying to optimize my paths with the map that I had of it. I think it was fine for us to go in not knowing it was a maze, but I think we should've known how it was being judged.

yeah, this was bullshit. challenge was weird but fine, lack of judging criteria is a major no-no

I think Boudica still beat me on moves though so it didn't matter in the end, but I was pissed about it at the time.

i think this game had a massive game-play stagnation and thats probably psychologically from so many items injected into the mess. No idea whats in the boxes leads people to be scared.

its a problem we saw on game changers, currently on BB19. Too many twists makes people scared to do anything.

Yo i'm still pretty peeved that people got items and shit and I gotta Pizza giftcard X_X

Hope you enjoyed that Pizza Reck

Aren't hiplop and CC running a low twist game soon?