Micro 789 - Alternating 9p - Mafia wins

[BuJaber]

I have never played with Z. I don't want to lynch there and by PoE I don't think he's scum but I could see it.
But I don't think chris is scum here. I think he'd be more obvious as scum imo.

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Major Minor

[Christopher]

VOTE: Major Minor

Ya, I'm fine with this wagon. I stand by my reads.

Honestly, BuJaber's opening so far is NAI. FMPOV, it's just his town and scum opening.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Count

Not_Mafia - 3 - Raskolnikov, christopher, BuJaber
Iconeum - 2 - Lovebird, major minor
BuJaber - 2 - Iconeum, GreenLiquid.
Raskolnikov - 1 - ZZZX.
Major Minor - 1 - Not_Mafia

Not Voting - none.

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is April 2 at 1pm EST

[GreenLiquid]

Not chris.. I meant Major

So 1 scum in {ico, NM and maybe major}

Do you like townread chris or he just doesn't go either pool?

He doesn't go in either pool. He's town by PoE unless I'm wrong on both pools.

@GL - your pool has nothing to do with scumreads. None of you are specifically pinging me but I'm confident that three way convo you guys had was unnatural for TvTvT. One of you was playing along to keep the other 2 distracted and to inflate the thread. I made that pretty clear.
I do a lot of this if x then y sort of stuff and making hypothesies regarding 2 or three players at the same time. I wouldn't know a specific example to quote or link off the top of my head but if you really think that would be helpful I'll go search through my posts. It seems like a waste of time though because even if I showed you the examples how would that help you townread me? You're better off asking someone I've played with before. (NM, Lovebird, christopher, Icon) not all them might agree they've each played different games than me but they're a more believable source than I would be talking about myself. I think chris hasn't seen my town game at all we were scum together once and that's it as far as I recall.

OK, correct me if I'm wrong about this:

Your strongest impression right now is that the early conversation with Lovebird, Raskie, and Me is unlikely to be all town, therefore there's at least one scum in that group. You also are independently scumreading Iconeum, Major Minor, and Not_Mafia. However, since your conclusion about me/Lovebird/Raskie is stronger than those reads, you conclude that there's one scum in the former group and one of your scumreads is actually scum. Am I getting the right idea?

Can you explain why you scumread Iconeum/Major_Minor/Not_Mafia?

[Kmd4390]

Major Minor has been prodded

[GreenLiquid]

I consider insincerity in posts to have much more direct bearing on alignment because scum cannot be sincere by nature (they're not in the game to hunt scum). That's why, for instance, I question your really early townread, because I feel it's more natural for a townie to start a game feeling suspicious and looking for scummy behavior from other players (at least from my own experience) than to start off by townreading people. That, and there's a scum motive in throwing out an early townread that seems stronger than the likelihood that a townie would do the same. But you gave a reasonable explanation for it and that mostly mollified my initial scumread.

But, couldn't making early townreads be someone's style too? Besides, not like it was a choice, I just noticed something towny I thought, so said it.

I suppose it could be, but it doesn't seem likely. Townreading people very early in games as a playstyle would probably run someone the risk of feeling forced to townread someone for bad reasons and being called out on it.

Ico is null/leantown to me. I don't agree with your push on him -- his early posts don't seem empty to me, or at least not empty relative to what we've been dealing with this game. The only thing odd in my eyes is his 95 but I could be misunderstanding it.

What makes him leantown here? You only mentioned reasons for him not to be scum. And, I still think they're empty, though I guess that's lots of people. His stood out, though. Didn't think they were saying much.

It's partly gut, and partly that he's been engaging with people in a way that feels meaningful. If he's scum pretending to do that, he's doing it better than average.

Lazy reads in 59, townreading people for effort. Questions he doesn't seem to care about or follow up on later.

I agree that it's not an amazing entrance, but I think meh reads are justifiable at that point -- heck, mine were basically null at that point aside from on you. He also engages with people directly after that point. What questions do you think he didn't care about following up on?

bujaber is moonlogicing but low scum motivation in it atm imo, i'd lynch n_m or zzzx over him

The scum motivation is that he's avoiding committing to any stances besides "1 scum in me/you/Lovebird because early game didn't feel like all town" and unexplained scumreads on three other players (though I have a good guess about Not_Mafia). Although the fact that he's sticking so hard to his guns on it is weirdly giving me town vibes, I guess because I figure scum would be more likely to drop it if they felt pressure on them.

[Iconeum]

One day I'm going to make a wiki section for my page where I link everytime someone made fun of my logic and I was right 100%.

People seem to forget that if they read something as townie and someone else reads the same thing as scummy somehow their opinion is more correct and it's bullshit. People don't always play the same way every game.

I think I'm fucking right and if you want to lynch me for that do so but I'm gonna rub it in your face when we lose and you decided to let your ego rule the game.

I'm sick of people on MS belittling my thought process.

Do you disagree with how we are disecting your reads? Do you disagree that you are inconsistent and/or illogical in your conclusions?

I mean, your posts have scum vibes all over them.
Here's another one:

124 you are agreeing with Rask calling out Major Minor is difficult to read, and continue to sort Rask as scum but Major as town (assuming this because you are not including him in your scumpools)

Besides this, you are including half the players in your scumpools but no further attempt to sort this are being made by you.

My vote is fine where it is.

[BuJaber]

@GL:

NM: NM's meta is pretty well known throughout the site. However he usually has one or two good posts from time to time that give you a little insight. This game he has nothing. And that copy paste math lesson is very tongue-in-cheek and completely out of character and unnecessary.

Icon: I guess I expect more from Icon as a leader in this group if he is town. I might be wrong about that. But then he seems to be spending a lot of energy, time and effort on my case but everyone else he either gives a weak read on or a small line about and nothing else. It doesn't seem like town tunneling where he just thinks he's right. It seems like an intentional attack and avoiding to talk about anyone else.

Major: not posting much but also he doesn't seem to scumread icon that strongly so it seemed like a weird choice to make for vote. He also took his RVS vote too seriously.

[BuJaber]

Ftr the way that major talks about Rask sounds a lot like scum defending scum. It is the sort of thing people comment on when they know the other is phony. I have each in separate pools so if either of them flips scum the other is more likely to be scum. Though if either flips town it doesn't really change the read on the other one way or another.

[Iconeum]

Do you, or do you not, scumread Rask. Explain plz.

Why is it so difficult to understand? Please help me. I run into this situation a lot. Is it my wording that is unclear? My english is bad? What is it?


I don't scumread rask. I don't townread rask.

Because of the whole process I explained above I forced myself to choose between rask and GL for whom to vote. I compared the 2 and decided rask is more likely to be the scum. Fact that it is the same person I voted for in RVS because his openings pinged me played a part in helping me decide.

BuJaber's opening is pretty standard. That, in and of itself, is NAI. Like he mentioned in #63, based on my recent experience it would be foolish to assume AI based on that.

tr Greenliquid.

leantown on BuJaber, Iconeum, and Lovebird.

Major's afk, and i'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

tbh, I'm null on ZZZX and Rask.

leanscum on no content Not_Mafia.

VOTE: Major Minor

Ya, I'm fine with this wagon. I stand by my reads.

Honestly, BuJaber's opening so far is NAI. FMPOV, it's just his town and scum opening.

Care to explain how you come to a Bujaber 'light townread' conclusion after stating and re-stating that everything he's done so far is NAI?
You put others in a null read, so that's where I expect you to place Buj based on your posting.

What's up with that?

[BuJaber]

Shit I missed that chris had a townlean on me.

Okay

1 scum in {NM, chris, Major, Icon}
1 scum in {GL, Rask, Lovebird}.

And since I can't imagine the scum motivation to bus chris here if chris flips scum icon is automatically cleared no matter what (ie even if all 3 of GL, Rask, Love are town and I'd be forced to find the 2nd scum elsewhere wouldn't think Icon is scum if chris flips scum).

[Iconeum]

So with 9 players, you put up a list of 7 players out of which 2 are scum.
explain why him scumreading you puts him in your list as scum?

[Christopher]

Do you, or do you not, scumread Rask. Explain plz.

Why is it so difficult to understand? Please help me. I run into this situation a lot. Is it my wording that is unclear? My english is bad? What is it?


I don't scumread rask. I don't townread rask.

Because of the whole process I explained above I forced myself to choose between rask and GL for whom to vote. I compared the 2 and decided rask is more likely to be the scum. Fact that it is the same person I voted for in RVS because his openings pinged me played a part in helping me decide.

BuJaber's opening is pretty standard. That, in and of itself, is NAI. Like he mentioned in #63, based on my recent experience it would be foolish to assume AI based on that.

tr Greenliquid.

leantown on BuJaber, Iconeum, and Lovebird.

Major's afk, and i'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

tbh, I'm null on ZZZX and Rask.

leanscum on no content Not_Mafia.

VOTE: Major Minor

Ya, I'm fine with this wagon. I stand by my reads.

Honestly, BuJaber's opening so far is NAI. FMPOV, it's just his town and scum opening.

Care to explain how you come to a Bujaber 'light townread' conclusion after stating and re-stating that everything he's done so far is NAI?
You put others in a null read, so that's where I expect you to place Buj based on your posting.

What's up with that?

Like I said previously, the opening itself (for me) is NAI--like BuJaber mentioned when he and I last played together we were both scum. He had the same inquisitive opening (as scum), however I could easily see how BuJaber (as town) would use the same approach. For me, in this game, the opening in and of itself is NAI.

Which leads me to my read...

Setting aside the above meta, I read BuJaber as slight town. From my POV in this game, his content has been generally pro-town.

I acknowledge that I need to be careful of being pocketed by Bu if he's scum, but that's more of a day 2 analysis (imo).

@BU: Me townleaning on you causes you to scum read me? That's super scummy. Has your analysis of me changed in light of this post?

[BuJaber]

I saw his comments that my posts are NAI but did not see that he also claimed I was a townlean. The townlean isn't the problem alone but he hasn't given any reason for me to move from null to townlean as you pointed out.

But my list is very good for associations. Say rask flips scum for example. It clears Love and GL for me (until lylo at least).
Say NM flips scum. I'd focus less on you and more at the GL/Love/Rask trio.

[BuJaber]

Thank you chris for the explanation.

To townread you I'll need more yet. But since you explained there isn't a specific reason to scumread you so you're back to town by PoE.

What I do know is that if icon flips scum it clears you for sure because no way that was a distancing/bussing post by Icon.

[BuJaber]

But to be honest as I said previously I think I'd catch you if you were scum. I'm more inclined to sense it if you're scum given that that's the only meta I know.

[Christopher]

I saw his comments that my posts are NAI but did not see that he also claimed I was a townlean. The townlean isn't the problem alone but he hasn't given any reason for me to move from null to townlean as you pointed out.

But my list is very good for associations. Say rask flips scum for example. It clears Love and GL for me (until lylo at least).
Say NM flips scum. I'd focus less on you and more at the GL/Love/Rask trio.

TBF, how successful has your early pool strategy been? I mean no disrespect, but its validity is built on a house of sand.

You're developing scum pools based on very early/RVS reads which kind of lock you in. You then use those reads to confidently narrow-down your scumpool.

On one hand, it's as valid as any other early-game strategy to identify scum. On the other hand, you're kind of locked-in to your reads lest you get accused of waffling (SCUM BEHAVIOR!!! ) or being wrong and you're letting a scum slip by.

[Christopher]

But to be honest as I said previously I think I'd catch you if you were scum. I'm more inclined to sense it if you're scum given that that's the only meta I know.

FWIW agreed 100%

[BuJaber]

I get that people might disagree with it as a strategy but it's natural for me.
I am not locking myself to these people as only possible scum. What these lists do for me is make me split up the group of players into smaller categories.

When new posts or information come in I reevaluate.

But as long as I believe that the original reason for the grouping is still valid I stick to that grouping until new evidence comes that reinforces or invalidates it.

For example for the GL, Rask, love pool I strongly believe I am right for thinking that discussion was intentionally encouraged by scum. So until they flip or I can confidently townread all three that pool will remain as it is.

[Raskolnikov]

christopher != bujaber probably ftr

[Raskolnikov]

The associations are actually a good point by bu if we lynch in the null/lurk slots, I don't think like GL/love is a thing either

[Iconeum]

Christopher, you are making less and less sence here. You keep putting forth NAI arguments from Buj and townreading him for those posts that you consider NAI.
Then you say he has pro-town content, but fail to point those out or use them to validate your town read on Buj.

Buj, there are 9 players in this game. Assuming you are town, that's a pool of 8 players. There are already 7 in your lynchpools. So when you say 'i'm not locking myself to these players only' that effectively means you are putting every single player in the game beside yourself in the lynchpool.

[BuJaber]

Icon you're not getting it. I don't know any other way to explain it.

[Iconeum]

Shit I missed that chris had a townlean on me.

Okay

1 scum in {NM, chris, Major, Icon}
1 scum in {GL, Rask, Lovebird}.

I get that people might disagree with it as a strategy but it's natural for me.

I am not locking myself to these people as only possible scum.

For example for the GL, Rask, love pool I strongly believe I am right for thinking that discussion was intentionally encouraged by scum. So until they flip or I can confidently townread all three that pool will remain as it is.

Icon you're not getting it. I don't know any other way to explain it.

Like, I'm really trying to understand here because it's important. But if you are town, then with the exception of 1 player, you are putting every single other player in the brackets and saying 'i'm not locking myself to these people as only possible scum'. Who else are you going to include here, then?

On top of that, the only player you are not including, zzzzzzzzx, you read as null. Not as town. Null. That means you are scumreading everyone else.

On top on top of that, you are voting NM which is the easier wagon to go on. There's no real other attempts at sorting players, and the 'waiting for information' is just a scumread imo.